Me: Well, I miss the little guy.
Me: That, and I wish I could help out.
Me: ...
Beer glass: ...
Me: You could use a refill.
Me: Shanks for the headsh up.
1
so let me see if I have this right: she gets death threats, and resigns from her job due to her misconduct on another bloggers sites with comments, and you're still pushing for further punishment by having her domain name revoked? I think she took her licks, no? I think it's the job of the left to act rabid, and push the envelope a mile further than needed.
I'll tell you right now, I don't put my phone number in my whois contact either -- seeing as registrars are already charging to keep information anonymous, where people have to send mail to the registrar to forward to the owner, I have my mailing address there it should be sufficient.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 05:30 PM (voZp6)
2
What death threat did she receive? Have you seen one? I haven't.
When I get a death threat, I post it.
And guess what? Filing a fake phone number with a DNR is a violation of their TOS. In other words, she broke an agreement with Godaddy to provide truthful information.
If she's willing to lie to Godaddy, why should I believe she's gotten death threats? Or, for that matter, that she even resigned? She offers not one shred of proof of either.
You do what you want with your domain name, dave. If you've left it out, and it's acceptable to the company, so what? She didn't leave hers out, she entered a totally fake one.
And given what she said about a guy's two year old child, there aren't enough licks to be taken for shit like that.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 06:02 PM (/qy9A)
3
I think she deserves to heve the book thrown at her. Posting thinly veiled threats / suggestions of violence against someone's child is beyond mere "misconduct." Her comments about Goldstein's race & Bainbridge's sexual preferences should be "misconduct" enough to preclude her from ever getting another position in academia. Repeated veiled threats of violence, especially against a child, are a whole other level of no-no. There's simply no place for that level of discourse. I hope the public will be relentless in making sure this lunatic never darkens the door of another lecture hall.
Posted by: The All Seeing Eye at July 08, 2006 06:13 PM (fZeeX)
4
So there I was tapping my way along and I got to this part......
"If you are sight impaired and would like help using this page please call (480) 505-8899."
I realize it doesn't contain the word blind but that's likely more due to the fact the words that mean what they mean are being swapped out for the PC pukes. Even the clawed little friend of Jeff's is in a ball over this one.
I'm with Vinnie on this issue. Anyone who threatens crap the way this thing has/is/does, needs to get bitchslapped on both sides and dropkicked from the sphere. No three hail Mary's-No pass go collect $200-No chance to spur on some other sick fuck that would DO the deeds, that she has wished upon him.
Posted by: forest hunter at July 08, 2006 06:24 PM (TjUVb)
5
Vinnie:
If you had placed a link to the comments she made at Jeff's site in your story, I may have got the context -- I went to her site following your whois. Her explanation is she made some inflammatory comments etc. which obviously is maximum downplay.
I guess 000-000-0000 could be considered a fake phone number, however seeing as even Godaddy acknowledges that registrar records are being abused by spammers (with their image ID script) I don't blame anyone who doesn't fill in their complete information, especially as for a couple of dollars in their pocket they'll willingly hide all of your information.
I guess I am a liar too, because I claim my number is 000-000-0000? wrong - I just don't want my information available to anyone to call me.
The fact that someone decided to look up her record to get her address/phone number in the first place proves how sound that decision was on her part, otherwise her # would be all over conservative websites with the usual "call to give your opinion" mantra.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 07:31 PM (voZp6)
6
No, you're not only a liar, you're a cheapskate. Fork over the extra bucks to keep your info hidden. You agreed to a Terms of Service with a company. They're keeping up their end of the bargain while you shirk yours.
If you don't want your private info accessible to the public, use the tools available to make it so. If it costs you extra, so be it. If you're unwilling to pay, you put yourself out on that limb, not anyone else.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 08:18 PM (/qy9A)
7
You sound like the sort of corporate lickspittle marketers love -- calling me a "cheapskate" and a liar for not wanting to publish my phone number, while keeping my mailing address public, guess what genius? that isn't a service they offer! I wonder if you would publish such statements against my character if you were required to display your address and phone number, just for the "privilege" of owning a domain name? evidently not -- you're posting anonymously through a service that likewise has no requirements to publish all of your info, on a bloggers site who values his privacy for all the right reasons -- irony.
RFC 954 was one of the first specifications for the WHOIS service, wrote in 1985, which at the time SMTP servers accepted Email from anyone, to anyone -- until mass marketers and spammers abused the service. now WHOIS is coming under the same assault, whois records are having to be placed behind anti-harvest scripts to stop spammers from taking information to be placed in their marketing databases, likewise WHOIS records are being used by people in the know to publish their "enemies" information all over the internet, which wasn't the original spirit, nor intent.
Interestingly when a newspaper publishes a suggestion of using a telephone book to look up a conservatives phone number to use it for the purpose of harrassment authors here (rightly) see it as being outrageous:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/179846.php
I guess it's not too outrageous if they had suggested using his WHOIS address instead of the Yellow Pages right? after all it's in the terms of service? it should be there for all to see? people should be able to use it for any purpose they wish?
I find the selective outrage of access to private information, published publically to be amusing. I guess it matters which side of the fence you're on.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 08:58 PM (voZp6)
8
It's about choices, "genius." You make the choice, you take a risk.
Yeah, I've made the choice to remain anonymous ever since I started blogging, every step of the way, choosing venues where I didn't have to worry about deranged people like Frisch and the "i will cut ur neck" emailer from Egypt.
And take the strawman about the newspaper editors out into the backyard and burn it. Nowhere did I suggest that anyone contact Frisch herself. I advocated doing what Godaddy asks for, reporting false information. It's right there at the bottom of the page. A link to report false or incorrect information.
This is the outstanding quote of the day:
"I find the selective outrage of access to private information, published publically to be amusing. I guess it matters which side of the fence you're on."
If it's published publically, it ain't private information.
Now, go ahead and continue to defend a woman who quite starkly reveled in the thought of a two year old's death.
Let's see what side you're on.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 09:23 PM (/qy9A)
9
dave
How can you defend her for any reason? After what she has done why aren't you after her instead of vinnie for doing what is right?
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 09:39 PM (KNYEg)
10
So, lemme get this strait, Dave, you won't put information you can get from the phonebook in your domain name registration? If it's breaking the rules, it's breaking the rules.
Lord God, the next thing you know these right-wingers will have some sort of mapping program where your can get a map of the whole Earth...say from a search company, like Google...
Posted by: John at July 08, 2006 09:40 PM (bbqag)
11
The universities need a thorough house-cleaning. Tenure is another full-employment plan of the socialists. These psycho snipers like Frisch should be fired.
Posted by: Veritas Regina at July 08, 2006 09:46 PM (PC/QV)
12
What you advocate is the revoking of her domain name, because you feel it is an ample angle to harrass her -- otherwise you would not suggest people do it, nor point it out.
I'm not surprised by you labeled the argument as a "strawman" because what you have done is the equivalent -- suggesting using her lack of valid phone number on her domain record to have her domain name revoked, and thus cause her suffering.
If you wish to talk about "Strawman" it would be in the argument of some self-righteous a-hole who randomly suggests "enforcing" corporations terms of services to harrass people -- the fact people are using the service to look up the name and address and splash it all over the place in their arguments is not why the service exists.
I have a right not to have my phone number used by marketers, registrars seem to be doing a piss poor job of stopping them harvesting it. It's amazing that someone would think it's a good idea to hand corporations all their data, when it's obvious they can neither protect it, or stop selling it.
My argument isn't about this freaking moonbat, my argument is about using whois information to harrass someone, something that now seems rather hypocritical since they published the story about a newpaper suggesting someone uses a telephone book to harrass a conservative -- I guess it's ok to use a whois record to do the same right? just not a telephone book with the same info?
Jeez, I guess it's a bit too much to ask for some consistency, I now return you to your next installment of "how it's right to do it, if a Lefty is a target"
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 09:53 PM (voZp6)
13
davec
What part of keeping an agreement do you not understand?
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 09:57 PM (KNYEg)
14
Domain name revocation = fantasizing about infaticide, I guess?
Once again, you're a liar, I did not look up the information to "splash it all over the place." Which, of course, is another strawman, since anything you need to know about Frisch is already out there.
You seem to be engaging in the time-honored practice of divining intent through a computer screen. Which, of course, is another strawman, since anything you need to know about Frisch is already out there.
I've got bad news for you bub, your domain registrar is not the Federal Government. You don't have a RIGHT not to have your info there if you agreed to their terms of service.
Do you have a right to yell fire in a theatre? Do you have a right to go into a restaurant sans shirt and shoes?
I find it hilarious that you keep referring to a post on this blog that I didn't either write, comment on, or refer to in any way. So yeah, your strawman is getting pretty hot right now. Bluto wrote the post about the newspaper editors and the phonebook. Or do you not see the "posted by" at the bottom of every entry.
So much for the hypocrite argument.
Now, keep defending a woman who revels in the thought of the death of a two year old.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 10:10 PM (/qy9A)
15
Let me sum that up so others don't waste 30 seconds of their life:
"strawman, strawman, strawman, Federal Government, fire crowded theater. it's the same but different, defend the bad guy"
So why did you run to the registrar? what particular information were you attempting to retrieve, motive?
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:17 PM (voZp6)
16
davec
Maybe like to see if there is a MO (like another liberal maggot professor Ward Churchill) shooting off her mouth?
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 10:22 PM (KNYEg)
17
Richard:
I guess that's great, as long as you do nothing with the information you see?
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:24 PM (voZp6)
18
davec
So when we see something wrong we just hide ours heads in the sand?
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 10:26 PM (KNYEg)
19
Reporting falsifications to a blog host administrator simply does not rise to the level of revealing a person's home address, much less a death threat.
Period. No further elaborations are necessary to settle that issue.
Notifying a person's employer of obnoxious behavior is not very nice, but then maybe what the person had done (as in this case) deserved reporting, especially since it included threats of crimes.
There is no right of anonymity (not even, especially not even, in the bizarro liberal universe), at best anonymity is a prudential convenience subject to common sense limits.
Posted by: D. Ox at July 08, 2006 10:28 PM (gr1wo)
20
depends if it's selectively enforced by a motive, e.g would you report the same missing phone number if Pixy Misa had not placed it on his mu.nu whois record? or just the people that piss you off?
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:29 PM (voZp6)
21
davec
That wasn't the answer to the question. Do we hide our heads in the sand when we see something wrong?
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 10:32 PM (KNYEg)
22
p.s.
Neither do I see why anyone should get upset about referring lunatics to the phone book. C'mon guys, can't we all get along?
Dave, you obviously have some common sense. If us right-wingers are especially shocked by the Frish it's because we are all too used to the spirit behind her attacks...
Posted by: D. Ox at July 08, 2006 10:33 PM (gr1wo)
23
no, it's not the answer you were looking for. Unless if you spot a crime, you get online and encourage others to call the police. In this case a simple Email to the registrar was all that was required to ask godaddy to enforce their TOS, but I guess "mob rule" by numbers is a better option, to ensure thy will is carried out.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:36 PM (voZp6)
24
It's none of your business what I was doing, now is it?
What are you trying to do, invade my privacy?
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 10:39 PM (/qy9A)
25
I've had to deal with selective perception many times in the past, but I dealt with witnesses who tried to recollect a few seconds of an event, usually when they were scared senseless.
davec, you have problems reading and remembering simple paragraphs that you can refer to time after time.
"Strawman, strawman, etc." is not the summary.
What part of a service agreement, which is a contract, don't you understand? That's the "Yes, I Agree" box you click on in case you're confused. That's the introduction, presentation, summary and closing argument.
Posted by: sig94 at July 08, 2006 10:40 PM (BnMdL)
26
davec
Closer, but still not answering the question.
Keep trying you may get it yet...
Posted by: Richard at July 08, 2006 10:41 PM (KNYEg)
27
I've had to deal with selective perception many times in the past, but I dealt with witnesses who tried to recollect a few seconds of an event, usually when they were scared senseless.
davec, you have problems reading and remembering simple paragraphs that you can refer to time after time.
"Strawman, strawman, etc." is not the summary.
What part of a service agreement, which is a contract, don't you understand? That's the "Yes, I Agree" box you click on in case you're confused.
That's the introduction, presentation, summary and closing argument.
Posted by: Commodore Clue at July 08, 2006 10:42 PM (BnMdL)
28
D. Ox:
Actually, if the post had not alluded to using complaints to revoke a domain name, I would have been on board, the issue looks more like something to be handled by law enforcement, than the blogosphere. The comments that the person concerned had made about 7/7 and U.S troops were pretty much on the same dispicable lines -- and look like someone craving attention, which thanks to all of this she has plenty of.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:43 PM (voZp6)
29
No Vinnie, my concern is for that of Godaddy Inc's Terms Of Service you keep harping on about, seeing as you've become a good Corporate TOS enforcer, I wanted to ensure you hadn't broken the TOS of use of the WHOIS service:
$whois -h whois.godaddy.com godaddy.com
The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database,
while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is"
with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This
information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you
in obtaining information about domain name registration records.
Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden without the prior written
permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By submitting an inquiry,
you agree to these terms of usage and limitations of warranty. In particular,
you agree not to use this data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible,
dissemination or collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any
purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and
and solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree
not to use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic
processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose,
including mining this data for your own personal or commercial purposes.
We should all take this example, to ensure that Corporations terms of service are not selectively enforced.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 10:48 PM (voZp6)
30
Well gee, dave, I haven't violated that, now have I?
Divination of intent through a computer screen. Still impossible after all these years.
Now start responding to the other commenters, or face the axe.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 10:59 PM (/qy9A)
31
Axe me, I could care less.
I have been on the receiving end of abuse of the WHOIS system, by some local leftwing reporter who I criticized by
Email to their editor. Shortly after I started receiving prank calls around 2-3AM, the whois system is not there to be used to settle a vendetta, and it's because of people like you I removed my phone number in the first place.
Posted by: davec at July 08, 2006 11:19 PM (voZp6)
32
Well, that's interesting dave. I didn't know that one could abuse the WHOIS system by receiving an email.
Or did you make the
choice and
take the risk of including your URL in said email?
And it's because of
people like you that I
chose to pursue avenues in which I could keep my family free from harm.
However, you, like Deb,
chose to pursue another path.
And you, like Deb, are trying to paint yourself as the victim of others, when the fact is, you were victimized by a lack of common sense.
What we here in teh flyovuhr cuhntry call "street smarts."
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 08, 2006 11:59 PM (/qy9A)
33
I think what's getting obscured here is the fact that we are talking about one person's behavior, and the fact that it's completely unacceptable. The whole "fire in a crowded theater" argument aside, one of the realities of life is that there are consequences to actions. Sometimes they're positive - you put a quarter in a machine and turn the handle, you get a gumball. Sometimes they are negative - you make inappropriate comments about the molestation and murder of a toddler, and you are taken to task. People complain to the University you work for, and begin to call you on your other issues. Addressing her comments via a letter to her boss and noting TOS violations are certainly better than death threats - maybe grimmer reactions than some might like, but fair game.
The TOS are what they are. She made a choice, and whether or not it's an understandable one, if she's held accountable for violating them, SHE's the one who did it. Vinnie isn't responsible for her actions, SHE is.
This is the thing that drives me the most nuts about liberals - thinking everything that happens to them is someone's fault other than their own.
Posted by: Pam at July 09, 2006 12:07 AM (s1ho9)
34
I do believe I said prank call, Vinnie e.g by whois'ing my domain I used to send the Email.
I am sure however you believe it's acceptable behavior to whois someone's domain and prank phone people at all times of the night, especially if that person has pissed you off with their opinion.
Having been on the receiving end of some leftwing douchebag using the whois system to prank call me, I already know what it's like, it's for the same reason I am completely disgusted someone would use it to futher their agenda, no matter how vile the target might be -- after all my crime was sticking up for the troops, but the end justifies the means, no?
Posted by: davec at July 09, 2006 12:19 AM (voZp6)
35
davec - you are actually sticking up for this piece of crap???
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/07/a_new_low.html
http://www.debfrisch.com/
Right or left, this bitch is about as psychotic as a person can get.
Posted by: John Ryan's last brain cell at July 09, 2006 12:38 AM (2BOvC)
36
Actually John, if you reread you would see that I disagree with using the WHOIS system to broadcast Addresses and Phone numbers of people you don't like, in order to assure they will be harassed. I don't care
who the intended target is.
Publishing information to a registrar to keep your domain name in good standing should not be a contract to accept harrassment because the information is freely available to anyone with a browser, no more than the use of a return address label means it's acceptable for someone to mail you a dogturd because they dislike you.
Posted by: davec at July 09, 2006 12:57 AM (voZp6)
37
No, dave, you're pulling out the Interwebs Crystal Ball to divine my intentions.
Which you know nothing about.
My intention is not to publish someone's info all over the world. That's all you need to know.
Once again, despite repeated attemps to show you the pile of crap in front of you, you insist on stepping on it.
Never have I advocated contacting Frisch using her WHOIS info. I merely advocate letting her DNR know that she's lying to them, as they ask for with the link they provide to report inaccuracies or falsities.
If you don't want to publish your information to a Domain Registrar, don't sign up with a Domain Registrar that will publish your information.
Do a WHOIS on bamapachyderm.com, for example. She's a woman who made a
choice to pay a company for the privilege of having a domain name that wouldn't publish her private info.
You seem to not understand that what you consider private isn't private when you reveal it to a party whose policy is to provide your private info to anyone searching for it.
And you take a risk with that return address label, as well.
What part of choice and risk do you not understand?
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 09, 2006 01:36 AM (/qy9A)
38
Oh, and as far as your response to John Ryan's last brain cell, let's take it from the top:
"so let me see if I have this right: she gets death threats, and resigns from her job due to her misconduct on another bloggers sites with comments, and you're still pushing for further punishment by having her domain name revoked? I think she took her licks, no?"
Nah, you're not defending the POS, no way.
Oh, you can blame it on me, daveperpetualvictim, because I didn't provide the proper links, but it's not my fault your a lazy ass. Or, you've lied again, since All Seeing Eye posted all the links you needed to read a couple of posts down.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 09, 2006 01:44 AM (/qy9A)
39
Look at these fricken moonbats:
Hey folks, Deb is indeed one @#$%ed up person. But let's keep it as civil as we can.
I removed Deb's address from the posts because she emailed other bloggers and asked them to ask me to remove it. Childish attempt but still I followed through on her request.
Yes, anyone can get her information as proven by some of you. But, as someone who's had his family threatened on his blog, I decided to honor her request.
Posted by: Blackfive | Jul 8, 2006 2:19:24 PM
"Uh, Bruce? 555-1212 is the number for Information, not Dr. Deb. A little perspective, if you please."
Thank you, Pablo. And I see Black Five has removed her *address*, which was posted in the same comment.
Do we really need to behave like Kos Kidz? Leave law enforcement to the police and inappropriate threats and rudeness to the left side of the web.
Posted by: Bruce Rheinstein | Jul 8, 2006 4:54:50 PM
It's pretty funny to be talking about "risk" and "choices" while exposing other people's information on one hand, and soiling your pants about phantom Egyptian "beheaders" and "scary" liberal professors with the other, Blackfive see's the risk, you keep defending it.
I know when I read someone's site that pisses me off, I instantly rush to their registrar -- oh wait, no I don't.
I have said, why post this information public: Why not use the tools the registrar
gave you to report it? Why ask more people to report it? if it is such a grave breach of the Terms of Service, they will remove it -- without needing lots of people reporting it.
I guess for the same reason people couldn't resist posting her address, and all the info they could dig up on her in the comments on blackfive, until Mat "moonbat" Blackfive removed it? I guess all the talk about "registrar tools" and "terms of service" are just that.
Posted by: davec at July 09, 2006 02:10 AM (voZp6)
40
Rusty tracked down that emailer from Egypt, dave, he didn't just threaten me.
I thought you read this blog regularly, he threatened all of the people on the Contact Page (prior to Rusty's recent addition.)
Can't see the forest for the trees, can we?
In case you are unawares, the DNR can't remove the offender without someone reporting the offense.
Once again, you pull out the crystal Interwebs ball and divine my actions based on your readings therein.
Where have I posted her info? Am I now Blackfive?
Posted by: Vinnie's Beer Glass at July 09, 2006 02:45 AM (/qy9A)
41
Oh, and I didn't "read someone's site that pissed me off" and go running to their registrar.
I read words by a woman who revels in thought of the death of a toddler.
A woman you insist on defending.
I haven't posted anything public, dave, keep dreaming.
Now, answer Beth's questions. You won't like Beth when she's angry
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 09, 2006 02:58 AM (/qy9A)
42
The "tool" I was talking about is on the very same page you posted (which leads to the WHOIS record)
"
report Invalid whois" which takes you to the following:
https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/registrar/whois_report_invalid.asp
It is obviously the place to report inaccurate information.
I was talking about the same link you posted, at Blackfive he removed it, because of concerns with her Address being contained in it. I obviously never said you were "Blackfive" or "Bluto" or anyone else I compared the responses with.
Posted by: davec at July 09, 2006 03:03 AM (voZp6)
43
Finally, and this is your last word, dave, on any post I do on the Jawa Report.
I didn't "soil my pants" over that email.
Because, unlike you, dumbass, I have made sure I'm not traceable through the internets. I made the
choice not to take that
risk on behalf of my wife and kids.
And if that fails, davec, I've also accepted that
risk and made the
choice to exercise my 2nd Amendment right.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 09, 2006 03:06 AM (/qy9A)
44
It's not her address, dave, she is, by her own admission, in Eugene Oregon.
Have you even bothered to read the whole story, starting from her comments on Protein Wisdom?
The address in the WHOIS is in Arizona.
Posted by: Vinnie Editor In Chief Pro Tempore at July 09, 2006 03:13 AM (/qy9A)
45
The forest is heard and not seen. But only if you trust the senses you were born with and not the trees you've planted and are now surrounded by, Davec.
Posted by: forest hunter at July 09, 2006 07:05 AM (TjUVb)
46
I dunno- Is it just me or does the left play by other rules? If I had said that, I would have been drummed to re-education camp i.e., "Sensitivity Training" like Ozzie Guillen. Now when some moonbat opens her frisch-hole she doesn't have to go through the "training", why is that?
Could it be that this training is just code for lib-speak?
Posted by: Lowly Knave at July 09, 2006 09:36 AM (SyHc/)
47
Did I ever tell you about how sometimes I sleep with liberal girls and sneak out of their shitty studio apartments and never give them my phone number?
I get 10 points for each of them. 20 if she's a feminist. My current score is 620. what's yours?
Posted by: dan l at July 09, 2006 02:36 PM (vstyf)
48
Feel free to post my number.
I prefer to date psychotic lesbians as they usually have a full liquor cabinet and plenty of blow.
Posted by: The Ugly American at July 19, 2006 11:45 PM (ORJ0X)
49
ME!ME!ME! OOO!OOO! Pick me!
I have a question....
Shouldn't davec (is that pronounced d-long *a*-v-ick?) be talking his gripe with whois or whatever?
Methinks HE is the one with ulterior motives here.
TUA, call me
Posted by: SondraK at July 20, 2006 12:05 AM (PFaz2)
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