March 22, 2007

As I've said from time to time on these pages, this is one of the logical outcome of Christian fundamentalism and New Testament literalism. Pacifism is a form of Christian fundamentalism and literalism.
I hope the reason I bring this up is obvious. But, to state the obvious to the clueless: When was the last time you met a Muslim literalilst or fundamentalist who was a pacifist? All religions, my friends, are not the same.
Christians face the problematic of justifying violence when pacifism, in my mind, is clearly an immoral position. As history shows, Christians have not had that hard of a time figuring out a way to justify violence when necessary (and often, when not necessary). But, most of the violence committed in Christianity's name comes only after the Church rejected a core literalist tennet: seperation of church and state.
Muslims, on the other hand, have quite the opposite problem. The Quran and the hadiths clearly show that violence is God's way of not only defending the faith, but also in spreading the faith and in enforcing its moral codes. Thus, for the Muslim, the problematic is justifying peace when the Quran, the sayings of Muhammed (hadiths), and Mohammed's example (sunna), when taken literally, indicate that "God" wants his "submitters" to act immorally.
And, like Christians who rejected a literal interpretation of Christ's "turn the other cheek" or Paul's invitation to soldier converts to "do no violence", because doing so in every situation would clearly be immoral (eg, allowing genocide), so too have many Muslims, over the years, worked out ways of justifying peaceful coexistence with infidels (eg, India--at least, from time to time) or in rejecting sharia as nothing more than a set of values not to be enforced by state power (eg, "liberal" or "secular" Muslims). Because human beings have a way of finding the moral thing to do, even when Allah commands them to "strike the neck of the unbelievers".
But just because we have the capacity to see the immorality of pacifism or of jihad & sharia, this does not mean that people always follow their conscience. Ideas can have powerful effects on killing our innermost humanity. Marxism is the main example that comes to mind. An idea so powerful that it lead to the deaths of tens of millions of people.
In any event, there is something deeply troubling about a man who takes his reading of the New Testament so literally that he wishes to translate his personal forgiveness of his hostage takers into a public policy stance which would set them free, only to take more people hostage. Of course, Norman Kember's forgiveness stance is much less troubling than Osama bin Laden's kill the infidel stance. Both are problematic, but only one leads to mass murder.
A year after his release from almost four months of captivity when he was chained to fellow hostages, deprived of daylight and denied contact with the outside world, Norman Kember wants to defend his captors.Let me just add one more thing. Pacifism has been an essential part of a number of fundamentalist and literalist Christian sects for quite some time. But what is troubling about many of these so-called "Christian pacifists" is their relentless focus on stopping Western countries from war, but their total (or seemingly so) lack of interest for non-Westerners killing each other. Thus, their pacifism is really a form of anti-Americanism or anti-Westernism. Not all pacifists, of course, but a healthy number of them. For instance, how come there are no "Christian" human shields lining themselves up to protect Jews in Israel from attacks from Palestinian terrorists? Similarly, how come we don't see these so-called "peace activists" lining up for human shield duty at predominately Shia markets in Iraq? more...The British peace activist, seized in Baghdad with two Canadians and an American in November 2005 and held hostage for 118 days, says he will plead for the lives of the men accused of holding him and killing his American friend Tom Fox even though he fears they could kidnap or murder again.
"It's certainly part of Christianity and it's part of other religions, that forgiveness and an attempt to restore people who have done you wrong is the most positive outcome of something like this," Kember said in a telephone interview.
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Posted by: milky pilky at March 22, 2007 10:58 AM (f0ZuP)
Word. I have always been stunned at people who make that claim. Sure
there can be and are similarities here and there but overall there are
big differences.
Posted by: Randman at March 22, 2007 11:35 AM (Sal3J)
Posted by: greyrooster at March 22, 2007 12:24 PM (jNRRK)
Christians have generally not had a problem defending the concept of Just War because Jesus's commandment to "turn the other cheek" applies to individuals, not collectively. The logic is quite simple, considering I can only forgive a sin (turn the other cheek) committed against me (i.e., being slapped on the cheek), not one committed against somebody else. Pacifism, on the other hand, is the notion that you can turn the other cheek for violence being committed against others. They have no moral or ethical right to do that. It makes absolutely no sense at all. Pacifism is nothing more than well-intentioned moronity.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 22, 2007 12:37 PM (8e/V4)
themselves up to protect Jews in Israel from attacks from Palestinian
terrorists? Similarly, how come we don't see these so-called "peace
activists" lining up for human shield duty at predominately Shia
markets in Iraq?
Because maybe these well-intentioned fools aren't complete morons after all. They know that an American or Israel would hesitate to blow up a target being shielded by these fools, but a mooslim wouldn't hesitate even a single nanosecond to explode himself, taking the fool pacifist with him.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 22, 2007 12:54 PM (8e/V4)
Well said, and you can add to that "isolationism" especially these days! USA, all the way!
Posted by: Michael Weaver at March 22, 2007 12:54 PM (2OHpj)
Posted by: greyrooster at March 22, 2007 02:08 PM (jNRRK)
Posted by: Eric at March 22, 2007 09:08 PM (h0rYZ)
verses about that, so he can't be a literalist or a fundamentalist.
Also: Christ wasn't talking about public policy but personal issues. A better application of the bible would be for this liberal in Christian's clothing to personally forgive his captors, and - following the example of Paul - sing hymns and spiritual songs while in captivity, and take every opportunity to preach the gospel to those around him and his captors, but expecting justice to be done because the crime isn't just against him personally but against the law itself. That would be the more conservative interpretation (which includes more than the most convenient verses) of the bible. It is the liberal, non-literalist interpretation that cherry picks what parts to apply and what parts to casually throw. Usually anything that involves hurting the feelings of certain groups or that isn't politically correct get thrown out.
Posted by: Michael at March 22, 2007 09:37 PM (FHwni)
"Pacifism has been an essential part of a number of fundamentalist and literalist Christian sects for quite some time."
With all due respect, you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. The "Christian" pacifist movement was originally the product of Anabaptist theology (think Quakers and Plymouth Brethren), and in the past 100 years pacifism has been carried forward by theological liberalism, which is the very movement that fundamentalism was developed to correct and is in direct opposition to. The tiny minority of anti-war "fundamentalists"/evangelicals (think Jim Wallace and Sojourners) have long since abandoned "literalism".
If what you were saying were true, we would see vast swathes of fundamentalists aligned with the anti-war movement; but, in fact, we see the exact opposite. Evangelicals are the largest and most consistent segment of the American electorate defending the GWOT .
It's clear your doctorate is not in historical theology. You might want to leave the religious stuff to the people who do know what they're talking about.
Posted by: Scanderbeg at March 23, 2007 02:12 AM (NiMh4)
Posted by: John Ryan at March 23, 2007 11:04 AM (TcoRJ)
Just war is a widely held belief amonsgt Christians, and Jesus would be quite angry if we didn't come to the rescue of the innocent, or if we did not bring justice to those who pervert it. These peace-maker teams are also quite liberal in their theology, so they are by no means representative of orthodox Christianity.
Posted by: Richard Romano at March 23, 2007 04:45 PM (/2Xsz)
Posted by: Michael Weaver at March 25, 2007 04:29 AM (2OHpj)
November 08, 2006
Former British hostage Norman Kember has said he is unlikely to testify at any trial over his kidnapping in Iraq....I take that back. Norman Kember is a first rate asshole. Clearly the modern peace movement is less about peace and more about hatred of the West and all it stands for.Mr Kember told Channel 4 News he had been informed there had been arrests but said he faced a "moral dilemma" as he was against the death penalty.
The 74-year-old, who was opposed to the US-led action in Iraq, said he "can understand" what motivated the gang.
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Posted by: Fred Fry at November 08, 2006 09:35 AM (JXdhy)
The
spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is
only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that
there can be no compromise on basic principles. Ayn Rand (1905 - 1982), Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966
Posted by: Privateer6 at November 08, 2006 10:16 AM (1VK3B)
Posted by: Howie at November 08, 2006 10:51 AM (D3+20)
But just for the record. What's wrong with allowing a convicted terrorist to rot in jail forever? Do we really need to hang everybody?
Posted by: Professor von Nostrand at November 08, 2006 12:49 PM (Bwpq7)
Posted by: Jeff Bargholz at November 08, 2006 01:35 PM (bLPT+)
August 26, 2006
AP:
Survivors of two civilian contractors taken hostage and beheaded inI feel sorry for the families, but I'm not clear just how Syria helped al Qaeda in Iraq? I'm sure that they are in contact with ex-Baathists terror organizations--such as the 1920s Revolution Brigade--but al Qaeda?
Iraq filed a federal lawsuit Friday against Syria, which they claim supported the group who murdered him.
This is a step they can take to deter states who sponsor terrorists," said John Salter, an attorney for Jack Hensley's widow, Pati Hensley, and their teenage daughter, Sara.Wow, I'd like to see that evidence. It is clear that Syria is a state sponsor of terror, but they don't support all terror.The plaintiffs also include Francis Gates of Michigan and Holly Pettis, now living in Canada. They are the mother and sister, respectively, of Eugene "Jack" Armstrong, who was taken hostage and slain along with Hensley and a British co-worker.
The families are also seeking hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. "The trick is collecting," Salter said.
Salter said the lawsuit is based on the attorneys' investigations that show Syria was responsible for supporting and harboring the group that killed the men in September 2004.
The lawsuit also names Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad and a Syrian Air Force general. Keep an eye on this one. We may learn a thing or two about the Syria-insurgent connection through it.
Hat tip: Hostage watcher.
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"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Time to leave the ivory tower, Professor!
Posted by: Goofball at August 26, 2006 07:13 PM (adw/y)
Posted by: sandpiper at August 27, 2006 07:50 PM (n7v4a)
Posted by: greyrooster at August 29, 2006 06:14 AM (fnweh)
Posted by: Frank at August 31, 2006 02:21 PM (e94kH)
Posted by: Candice at August 31, 2006 02:22 PM (DTDy8)
Posted by: jonny5 at February 19, 2007 08:06 AM (CJDWu)
April 15, 2006

Peace Activist Norman Kember has given an interview to BBC. Kember is one classy peace activist. Norman was on eof the four CPT hostages. Kember also speaks well of Tom Fox who was murdered by the terrorists who held them.
Via BBC :Peace campaigner Norman Kember has given an emotional account of his ordeal as a hostage in Iraq.We are glad you are safe too Mr. Kember.Mr Kember, 74, of Pinner in north west London, was held in Baghdad for four months before his rescue on 23 March.
American peace worker Tom Fox, 54, was killed weeks before the rescue. When asked about his fellow hostage, Mr Kember said he was a "remarkable man".
His voice breaking with emotion, he spoke of the moment his rescuers arrived.
"We had this sort of futon thing on the floor, and we were lying there, and suddenly we heard noise outside and then somebody calling out and then the breaking of glass and then up the stairs came these SAS gents," he said.
"It's unbelievable because it was so sudden and first of all, because they were British, they wanted to know if 'Mr Kember' was there, and I said, 'Yes' and then they said, because I was the person at that stage chained to the door, 'This is a bolt-cutter job,' so they went down and cut the padlock and released me."
Mr Kember said he "continues to thank" his rescuers.
"They were brave. I disagree with their profession, but it is ironic isn't it - you go as a peace activist and you are rescued by the SAS, which is perhaps the most violent of all the British forces.
"Anyway I am grateful to them. I met one of them by chance on the way out of Baghdad and he was quite happy to chat to me and I was happy to chat to him."
The Jawa Report's Hostage Archive Here.
Don't forget hostage Jeffrey Ake and many others are still missing.
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Violence comeasurate to the threat. I'm only sorry they didn't get the opportunity to kill their captors, a job they do efficiently and expediently.
Posted by: davec at April 15, 2006 11:35 AM (CcXvt)
Of course he gave no word about how violent the terrorists are that he loves so much. Classy my ass; he's a piece of shit liberal, and I'm sorry he didn't get the chop.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at April 15, 2006 02:35 PM (0yYS2)
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/150406sheentv.htm
Posted by: Greg at April 15, 2006 10:33 PM (q5wwn)
I truly think he is grateful and it might even have changed his angle on the use of violence.
Posted by: dave clarke at April 16, 2006 06:32 AM (dVZID)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at April 16, 2006 07:24 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at April 16, 2006 07:29 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Last word Larry at April 16, 2006 02:20 PM (FCC6c)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at April 16, 2006 05:54 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Last word Larry at April 16, 2006 07:22 PM (FCC6c)
Posted by: Last word Howie at April 16, 2006 07:32 PM (p/kW4)
Posted by: Last word Larry at April 16, 2006 09:03 PM (FCC6c)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at April 17, 2006 05:34 AM (0yYS2)
What we think--but are hesitant to say!
Peace...
Posted by: Capster at April 17, 2006 05:59 AM (JF5DO)
Posted by: Last word Larry at April 17, 2006 10:52 AM (FCC6c)
March 23, 2006

Scroll down for updates.
American Tom Fox was found murdered on the streets of Baghdad last week by those the CPT claimed were simply 'insurgents' and who the CPT clearly believed were responding to Western aggression.
We are very happy to learn that at least three of the four hostages have been released and wish to congratulate our soldiers who took part in the raid. A job well done.
The Jawa Report's complete archives about these four hostages can be found here. For information about the other hostages still held in Iraq, including American Dean Sadek, please see our extensive hostage archives.
The CPT is a Leftist organization which claims to be pacifist and 'Christian,' but which focuses all of its efforts against Western governments. The four 'peacemakers' were taken hostage near the same mosque where Giuliana Sgrena had been abducted. Also, like the communist newspaper writer, the four activists were at the mosque to interview persons displaced by the Fallujah offensive and to document various 'war crimes' committed by U.S. troops.
Today, the CPT insulted the U.S. and other Coalition troops who daringly rescued the three peace activists by releasing this announcement. In it they compare the taking of hostages and their subsequent murders to Coalition Forces who detain suspected terrorists:
Harmeet, Jim and Norman and Tom were in Iraq to learn of the struggles facing the people in that country. They went, motivated by a passion for justice and peace to live out a nonviolent alternative in a nation wracked by armed conflict. They knew that their only protection was in the power of the love of God and of their Iraqi and international co-workers. We believe that the illegal occupation of Iraq by Multinational Forces is the root cause of the insecurity which led to this kidnapping and so much pain and suffering in Iraq. The occupation must end.Today, in the face of this joyful news, our faith compels us to love our enemies even when they have committed acts which caused great hardship to our friends and sorrow to their families. In the spirit of the prophetic nonviolence that motivated Jim, Norman, Harmeet and Tom to go to Iraq, we refuse to yield to a spirit of vengeance. We give thanks for the compassionate God who granted our friends courage and who sustained their spirits over the past months. We pray for strength and courage for ourselves so that, together, we can continue the nonviolent struggle for justice and peace.
Throughout these difficult months, we have been heartened by messages of concern for our four colleagues from all over the world. We have been especially moved by the gracious outpouring of support from Muslim brothers and sisters in the Middle East, Europe, and North America. That support continues to come to us day after day. We pray that Christians throughout the world will, in the same spirit, call for justice and for respect for the human rights of the thousands of Iraqis who are being detained illegally by the U.S. and British forces occupying Iraq.
During these past months, we have tasted of the pain that has been the daily bread of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Why have our loved ones been taken? Where are they being held? Under what conditions? How are they? Will they be released? When?
The four hostages were abducted by a group calling themselves The Swords of Righteousness Brigade. However, as first revealed on The Jawa Report, the group has been linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq and is probably a brigade or front for the well known Islamist terror organization. The Jawa Report was also the first U.S. media outlet to release the names of the four hostages.
NY Times story about the raid:
The delegation coordinator for the group, Claire Evans, said by telephone that Mr. Loney, a 41-year-old Canadian, had contacted his family this morning from the Green Zone, the fortified compound in Baghdad where some American military forces, Iraqi government offices and the American Embassy are located.This post will be updated throughout the day as more information on the raid that freed these hostages becomes available. Traderrob's earlier breaking story is here and Vinnie's here."He said that they were all in reasonable health," she said, adding that the three men were undergoing medical checks.
The men were freed by multinational forces in a military operation.
The hostages were found when American-led forces raided a house in western Baghdad, acting on information from one of two detainees interrogated late Wednesday night, Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, a spokesman for the American military, said at a news conference in Baghdad. The kidnappers were not in the house. The men were in "relatively good condition," he said.
In London, the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, said the mission had included British forces.
"It follows weeks and weeks of very careful work by military and coalition personnel in Iraq and many civilians as well," Mr. Straw said, adding that it involved a number of countries, including Canadian personnel.
Mr. Straw said that Mr. Kember was in "reasonable" condition and that the two Canadians had to have hospital treatment. He said he had spoken with Mr. Kember's wife. "Of course, it goes without saying that she is absolutely delighted, elated, with this news," Mr. Straw said.
The Loney family released a statement today saying that Mr. Loney had been released unharmed with his two companions.
"What a joyful day this is," the family's statement said. "We have just learned that James is coming home." The statement also expressed sympathy for Mr. Fox's family.
Thank you for the dozens of people who e-mailed tips about this to us.
It would do well for us all to remember that the statements downplaying the hostages' rescue are coming from the CPT, and not from the hostages themselves. I have a feeling that the hostages, who were so critical of the U.S. and so praising of terrorists in the past, will have a different take now. The murder of Tom Fox is a good indication they weren't treated quite as well as Giuliana Sgrena.
Update: No Pasaran notices this from a British peace activist on the BBC:
Of course I would like to thank the Foreign Office and, ,b>if it was the military that helped free him, then them too. But the Muslim community has really behaved in a wonderful way.Yes, Muslims have been so helpful....oh, and the military if it was indeed the military that rescued these guys. Nudge nudge, wink wink.
And via Small Dead Animals we are pointed to this from Relapsed Catholic who notices this little nugget:
In reaction Kember's friend, Bruce Kent (...) said the miltants holding the hostages 'must have been people of great faith.'Indeed. They took the example of early associates of Muhammed who also practiced hostage taking and which tradition tells us the Prophet (PBUH) approved of. That's one fine & peaceful religion you got there.
12:30 Update: The Left (see for instance Body and Soul or A Lovely Promise) is already talking as if their release was negotiated. The implication being that it wasn't the military that should get the credit but, instead, diplomacy. However, had the Left removed their tinfoil long enough they would have realized that tips from detainees led to their rescue and that finding hostages alone is not necessarily uncommon. For instance, Roy Hallums was released in a similar manner. A tip led to our troops finding him and when the troops got their his captors had fled. Knowing cousin Achmed just got captured and then hearing the sounds of helicopters and the approach of an Abrams tank might be enough to send even the bravest of terrorists fleeing.
UPDATE 12:45: Families react
Ed Loney said his freed brother "sounded fantastic" when he telephoned their mother in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario - and had apologised for putting the family through such an ordeal.And for the hate the military crowd, more information on the rescue. It was intelligence work that led to their release, not negotiations. Reuters:"He told them that he was well and that he was concerned about us and the family and other people who were worried, which is pretty typical of Jim, to put others first," he said.
His parents issued a short statement saying: "What a joyful day this is. We have just learned that James is coming home... We would like to thank everyone for their support and prayers." ...
Mr Sooden's father, Dalip Singh Sooden, said he had talked to his son.
"It's like it's unbelievable. I just don't remember what I said to him and what he said to me," he said.
"I've seen him on video and he looked like he's probably lost 10kg or something, but it was traumatic today, it was good. I still can't believe it."
Mark Brewer, the brother-in-law of Mr Sooden, said from his home in Auckland, New Zealand, that relatives were planning to go to Baghdad to bring him home.
"We're just looking forward to getting hold of him, giving him a big hug and bringing him back home to his family," Mr Brewer said.
He told TV One News in New Zealand the ordeal had been "excruciating", particularly since the death of Mr Fox.
Weeks of intelligence work in lawless west Baghdad and a rapid response by special forces to information extracted from a prisoner led to British troops' rescue of three Christian peace activists in Baghdad on Thursday.The following part of the story sounds very smilar to the rescue of our friend Roy Hallums:British and U.S. officials were reluctant to give details of the release of Canadians Harmeet Sooden and Jim Loney and Briton Norman Kember, not wishing to jeopardize efforts to free several other hostages believed still held around the capital.
"It was part of ongoing operations related to hostages," said British military spokesman Wing Commander Tony Radcliffe....
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said: "It follows weeks and weeks of very careful work by military Coalition personnel in Iraq and many civilians as well."
That suggested that the arrest of the man who provided the final tip was the product of detective work rather than chance.
Special police teams, apparently from Britain and possibly Canada, had been working on the ground since the four men were seized in west Baghdad on November 26, British officials said, stressing the role civilians played in the process.
The dawn raid that found the three hostages tied up and unguarded in a house was led by British troops and involved others from the U.S.-led Coalition, officials said.Great job troops and any police officers involved!They were acting on intelligence obtained three hours earlier from one of two people arrested the night before.
Though not a shot was fired, it is likely the operation was led by special forces ready to quell resistance and, especially, get the captives out unharmed after four months in captivity: "It was a fairly clinical extraction," Radcliffe said.
Update 1:00 P.M.: More from CNN:
Iraqi police Lt. Col. Falah al-Mohammedawi said it was believed the operation took place in Mishahda, 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Baghdad, AP reported.And from the Independent:
Maj Gen Lynch told reporters in Baghdad: "Late last night, coalition forces conducted an operation and it came up with two detainees.Update 1:15: Interesting. Canadian troops are in Iraq. This will come as quite a shock to most Canadians."These two detainees provided actionable intelligence about the location of the Christian Peacemaker Team hostages.
"We got that information at eight o'clock this morning and we conducted the operation.
"We moved to the location in western Baghdad that was reported for the location of the Christian Peacemaker Team.
"We conducted an assault on the house and inside the house we found the three hostages, in good condition.
"There were no kidnappers there at the time. The three hostages were by themselves."
The hostages were then freed, debriefed and taken to a hospital for medical checks.
"The key point is it was intelligence-led. It was information provided by a detainee," he said.
"In this particular case, of those two detainees, one knew where the hostages were and provided that information.
"The operation was planned and executed and the effect was the safe return of the three hostages."
"There seems to be a kidnapping cell that has been robust over the last several months in conducting these kind of kidnappings.
"It was a coalition forces operation so it involved all sorts of members of the coalition.
"The size and magnitude of the operation I'm not going to walk you through, because we have got other operations that continue."...
The early morning operation took place in a rural area north west of Baghdad, between the towns of Mishahda, 20 miles north of Baghdad, and the western suburb of Abu Ghraib, 12 miles from the city centre.
"The operation included representatives from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, other agencies from Canada – and they did a terrific job – as well as the Americans and British staff and those from Iraq," said Straw....Update 5:00: Via Beth (ps--thanks for sending your troll over Beth....), here is some more from a DOD press release. It mentions that the rescue was in downtown Baghdad.Canadian military personnel were involved in the operation, according to Pentagon sources, but it's not clear how many took part or what their role was. There have been reports that members of Canada's top secret commando unit, Joint Task Force 2, have been working in Iraq.
Also:
Three members of a group of Christian peace activists have been released from a hospital, where they were taken after their rescue by U.S. and British forces in Iraq today.Good to know the trio are alright. more...
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Posted by: WM at March 23, 2006 10:53 AM (3aCNQ)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 23, 2006 11:04 AM (8e/V4)
It irks me to think someone actually put our soldiers' lives at risk to rescue these people. They wern't even US citizens.
Posted by: MiB at March 23, 2006 11:11 AM (XRlh2)
I still suspect the hostages were 'bought' rather than 'rescued', though whether by ransom or bribe I have no clue.
Posted by: Glenmore at March 23, 2006 11:50 AM (loaB2)
Posted by: dave clarke at March 23, 2006 12:28 PM (V8wjL)
Can't say it any better.
Posted by: Javapuke at March 23, 2006 12:36 PM (qSYqZ)
Posted by: n.a. palm at March 23, 2006 12:37 PM (ZRUjY)
Posted by: Rusty at March 23, 2006 12:41 PM (JQjhA)
As always, I do want to clarify that those of you at the Jawa Report are once again seeing what you want to see and hearing what you want to hear out of all of this.
While CPT doesn't approve of the broader role of the US-led occupation in Iraq, the organization is very grateful to the coalition forces for securing the release of the three remaining hostages in such a sensitive manner. Doug Pritchard, the CPT coordinator, is very clear in his praise of the rescuers and the fact that the rescue proceeded cleanly and efficiently, without needing to resort to violence. That's a very positive step and in keeping with CPT's requests.
And, for the record, CPT has never called the Iraqi insurgents or the hostage-takers 'freedom fighters.' Violence is violence. What they have said and continue to say is that the occupation is the root cause of that violence and that innocent Iraqi civilians are the ones being victimized by both sides of the armed conflict.
It's your blog. Post what you wish. Just recognize that, while all the hot air may win you fans, it won't get you any closer to the truth of what these four men have experienced. My condolences to all those who knew Tom Fox and all my joy to the friends and families of Jim Loney, Harmeet Sooden, and Norman Kember. Jim, I'm glad to have you back.
Rob
Posted by: Rob at March 23, 2006 12:53 PM (vPEvo)
Posted by: traderrob at March 23, 2006 12:54 PM (3al54)
Posted by: n.a. palm at March 23, 2006 12:54 PM (ZRUjY)
The Iraqi people are being victimized by one side of the conflict. The other side is trying to help them. One side takes and executes hostages, the other side rescues them. When one side abuses prisoners, those responsible are arrested (over 21 arrests in Abu Ghraib case). When the other side murders hostages, those responsible are praised.
It would be nice if you and your friends would stop equivocating.
Posted by: Rusty at March 23, 2006 12:57 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 23, 2006 01:00 PM (0yYS2)
So kudos to the British and American forces from ReidBlog, and thank God these men were freed, whatever their politics. Cheers, Dr. R.
Posted by: JoyReid at March 23, 2006 01:03 PM (o1EiK)
they blamed the coalition forces for their kidnapping.
ALL THREE OF THEM ARE WORTHLESS, they arent worth a single hair of the worst cadet in the Military.
Posted by: billy faeth at March 23, 2006 01:42 PM (Lc35u)
Posted by: traderrob at March 23, 2006 01:54 PM (3al54)
Posted by: Jones at March 23, 2006 02:01 PM (SJ35d)
Posted by: Oyster at March 23, 2006 02:05 PM (g9UJq)
And these Leftwingers have the NERVE to accuse conservatives of thinking in black or white.
One question. Is the violence Hitler inflicted the same as the violence inflicted to defeat him?
I've asked pacifists this same quetion in conversation and none of them dared to answer, some even confessed to not having an answer (a convenient way to duck the question).
And these are some of the people who claim to be the "reality-based" community.
Amazing. Makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 23, 2006 02:24 PM (8e/V4)
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Posted by: F1sting Fool 54043 at March 23, 2006 02:25 PM (29EYB)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 23, 2006 02:25 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 23, 2006 03:30 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Oyster at March 23, 2006 03:41 PM (MkwVi)
LMFAO.
Well, gee. I take it the entire war in iraq irks you too?
What a bunch of retards.
Posted by: Angryflower at March 23, 2006 04:00 PM (m1UXN)
lol! Touche! And all the more remarkable for how rare it was.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 23, 2006 04:07 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jester at March 23, 2006 04:09 PM (TuAMG)
Posted by: Rusty at March 23, 2006 04:43 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: davec at March 23, 2006 08:42 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Richard at March 23, 2006 11:47 PM (7KF8r)
Posted by: john Ryan at March 24, 2006 10:26 AM (TcoRJ)
As for the part about the additional risk to the lives of the rescuers I am not sure if the risk they run durring a planed rescue mission is substantially more then they run every day durring normal operations.
May I suggest you actually start reading up on Military operations, and procedures so you can assess such things?
Start with CQB. that will give you a little idea, how much dangerous it is to assault a location.
The Police send in SWAT, in the same scenario, not just johnny flatfoot and his pump-action shotgun -- with good reason.
Posted by: davec at March 24, 2006 02:19 PM (CcXvt)
Ying and yang. Good deed and bad deed. I like how some people think it was only our men in harms way in this operation. We like to take credit for everything.
I especially like the fact that people are against abortion but pro war.
Did you ever hear the one joke going around about weapons of mass destruction. We know they have them, we got the reciepts to prove it.
I'm glad they got them out, my tax dollars are at work and I needant feel guilty about it for once.
Posted by: Hill Billy Bob at March 25, 2006 06:13 PM (vx4R9)
Posted by: john d at March 25, 2006 09:34 PM (Hhtfi)
Posted by: jummy at March 27, 2006 12:12 PM (Z81HX)
BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. and British troops Thursday freed three Christian peace activists in rural Iraq without firing a shot, ending a four-month hostage drama in which an American among the group was shot to death and dumped on a Baghdad street.
Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, the U.S. military spokesman, said the hostages were being held by a “kidnapping cell,†and the operation to free the captives was based on information from a man captured by U.S. forces only three hours earlier.
Read rest and a statement by Christian Peacemaker Teams, it's unbelievable.
Updates posted here: Western Hostages Rescued by Coalition Forces
Posted by: Traderrob at
09:58 AM
| Comments (10)
| Add Comment
Post contains 124 words, total size 1 kb.
Here's the most detailed account I could find:
http://news.inde_pendent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article353210.ece
Take the underscore out of inde_pendant. Damn filters.
Posted by: Oyster at March 23, 2006 10:02 AM (g9UJq)
Posted by: traderrob at March 23, 2006 10:13 AM (3al54)
Hold on just a second!! I don't like the statements released by the CPT any more than you guys, but let's wait and see what the hostages themselves have to say.
It is the Christian Peace Team organization that has spoken out against the "American occupation" as the root cause of this episode. The comments of the hostages I've seen so far have simply been "glad to be free and alive."
After their experience, the views of the individual hostages may no longer reflect the views of their organization. Could we all just reserve judgement until they have spoken for themselves?
Posted by: WM at March 23, 2006 10:24 AM (3aCNQ)
Posted by: Heroic Dreams at March 23, 2006 10:33 AM (aH6Zf)
Posted by: WM at March 23, 2006 10:38 AM (3aCNQ)
Posted by: Rusty at March 23, 2006 10:48 AM (JQjhA)
At this point in time however, I'll reserve my disgust for the Christian Peace Team who have shown their hand by dissing the soldiers who are reponsible for the freedom of their comrades.
Posted by: traderrob at March 23, 2006 10:49 AM (3al54)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 23, 2006 11:07 AM (8e/V4)
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Posted by: F1sting Fool 8552 at March 23, 2006 02:26 PM (29EYB)
Posted by: Hammerswing at March 24, 2006 09:19 AM (g4Hi+)
Now that they've been rescued unharmed, I feel no reason to have any more sympathy for them, the ungrateful bastards.
stein hoist 6MB
UPDATE: backtiming this because traderrob scooped me and should get the top billing and all the nice comments.
Updates posted here: Western Hostages Rescued by Coalition Forces
Posted by: Vinnie at
09:57 AM
| Comments (9)
| Add Comment
Post contains 59 words, total size 1 kb.
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 23, 2006 10:02 AM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Oyster at March 23, 2006 10:06 AM (g9UJq)
It is the Christian Peace Team organization that has spoken out against the "American occupation" as the root cause of this episode while completely absolving the Iraqi's actions. The comments of the hostages themselves thus far have simply been "glad to be free and alive."
After their experience, the views of the individual hostages may no longer reflect the views of their organization. Let's reserve judgement until they have spoken for themselves.
Regardless of their views, I glad they're alive and freed.
Posted by: WM at March 23, 2006 10:07 AM (3aCNQ)
Posted by: Vinnie at March 23, 2006 10:17 AM (f289O)
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at March 23, 2006 10:29 AM (WOQ34)
Posted by: Derek Falkan at March 23, 2006 10:44 AM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Rusty at March 23, 2006 10:47 AM (JQjhA)
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Posted by: F1sting Fool 98867 at March 23, 2006 02:23 PM (n12Sm)
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Posted by: F1sting Fool 28074 at March 23, 2006 02:27 PM (29EYB)
March 10, 2006

Tom was not seen in a video from the 'Swords of Righteousness Brigade' released March Seventh by Al-Jazeera. Today the FBI says that Tom was murdered.
Yahoo News :The FBI verified that a body found in Iraq Friday morning was that of Tom Fox, 54, of Clear Brook, Va., spokesman Noel Clay said. He said he had no information on the other three hostages.Yes what kind of group could possibly murder in cold blood a good peaceful Christian like this. He never hurt a fly. These terrorists cannot appeased or reasoned with. They have no respect for the kindness Tom surely showed the people of Iraq. May he rest in peace and may God keep him always. Again we must call for the release of all the remaining hostages.Clay said he did not know how Fox was killed but said additional forensics will be done in the United States. The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad is investigating, he said.
Fox's family has been notified, Clay said, and "our heartfelt condolences go out to them."
Full details on the CPT hostages here
Jawa Report archives on all hostages in general here.
Rather sad Hat Tip : Jesusland Carlos and George Ramos.
Update : Tom was Tortured before his Murder.
Yahoo News : Interior Ministry Lt. Col. Falah al-Mohammedawi said Fox was found with his hands tied and gunshot wounds to his head and chest. There were cuts on his body and bruises on his head, indicating torture, he said. The corpse was dressed in Iraqi-made clothing.So they Cut, Beat and Murdered an old man. That ought to please Allah.Fox's body was found near a railway line in Dawoudi, a mixed Sunni-Shiite area that has been largely shielded from violence. Shocked local residents on Saturday condemned Fox's abduction and killing.
"These acts are terrorist ones and will hinder the political process and distort the reputation of Iraq," said Dhamir al-Samaraie, who had come to see where Fox was found.
Posted by: Howie at
09:53 PM
| Comments (76)
| Add Comment
Post contains 333 words, total size 3 kb.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 10, 2006 11:00 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Howie at March 10, 2006 11:15 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: jonathan at March 10, 2006 11:30 PM (rh5AQ)
Any more expressions of sympathy for the terrorists who murdered this man will also be summarily deleted.
Yeah, you read that right. If you think this man deserved to die because of his ideology, you're on their side, not ours.
Posted by: Vinnie at March 10, 2006 11:33 PM (f289O)
Posted by: Javapuke at March 10, 2006 11:40 PM (5DcYX)
Knowingly and willingly walked into the lion's den? Yes.
Purpose for doing so? We all have our opinions.
Sympathy for him? No more than absolutely necessary, considering line 2 above. Like we used to say in demolitions training; if you screw up big enough, you only need to do it once.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 11, 2006 12:50 AM (0yYS2)
How you got to sympathy for the terrorists from what I said, escapes me.
His ideology is not what got him dead. But it does put others at risk when he finds out that these pukes mean business and our people are obligated to fetch him out as it were. He will be used as bait and more than one will do their damnedest to free him. Maybe even die trying, it's what they do and you know that.
I truly am sorry for him and all like him who will continue to step into that same trap.
Clearly my remarks have you misinterpreting my meaning. I'll take responsibility for that by not being clear. But make no mistake my stance on these terrorists or any other.
I'm sorry from the bottom of my heart if it came across that way to his family and you. I'm sorry.
Posted by: forest hunter at March 11, 2006 01:09 AM (Fq6zR)
I know many here did not agree with the choices Tom made. That's ok. If we were all cut from the same mold life would not be worth fighting for. It would have been nice if he had returned and had a chance to address the comments himself. I prayed he would.
I know many here simply don't understand why he made the choices he did. I held out hope he would return safely and address the questions himself. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. We are all the poorer for it.
At this point, it would be wrong for me to speak for him when he spoke so well for himself. In that spirit, I leave you with this entry from his blog:
Our apartment is across the street from a park. Many evenings around the time we are gathering for supper a mother and her three children walk by our living room window. The western sun illuminates her face and the faces of her young children.
I don't know her but in a way I feel I do. She looks tired. So many, many people here in Iraq are so very tired. She looks a bit fearful. Will today be the day when the insurgents set off a car bomb near the park? Will today be the day when the young men of the Iraqi National Guard, riding like cowboys in the back of their pickup trucks, get trigger happy and start shooting with her and her children in the line of fire? Yet day after day I see her taking her children to the park. Underneath the fatigue and the fear I can sense the hope and the courage in her heart. It reflects on her children as does the setting sun reflect on the nearby Tigris River.
She gives me courage to face the overwhelming difficulties of life in this broken land. She is living in the present moment fully aware of the dangers and uncertainties and yet she has not given up hope, she has not given in to despair, she has not let herself be driven into hiding by men with guns and bombs. She is my teacher. She teaches me how to live fully conscious of the horrors of today and still be able to envision a future of promise, peace and plenty. I would pray that we all live each day, no matter where we are, "for the sake of our children."
- Tom Fox , "For the Sake of Our Children"
===
Good bye, Good luck, God bless.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 11, 2006 01:36 AM (K5Ko+)
I have already seen people criticizing this mans ideology and trumpeting how it got him killed at LGF, which is ironic seeing as one of their threads which has been mentioned a lot of times was the "screw 'em" post about the "mercenaries" (Blackwater) killed in Fallujah at dailykos. I do not find it any different to blame the victim.
While I do not share his feelings, or reasons for going to Iraq, I can honestly say I cannot criticize his convictions, nor his feelings of wanting to be a part of something bigger than himself. Mercy was not afforded to him by his captors, I hope he is granted the peace he wished for in the next.
I pray for the safe return of the other hostages, this man was not singled out because of his beliefs neither religious, nor political but because he was an American, as such that affects us all.
Posted by: davec at March 11, 2006 02:04 AM (CcXvt)
These jerks bank on the emotional card being in play. It's not for people like me to comment on on the depth of Tom's presumably and most likely ".... wanting to be a part of something bigger than himself." For me, all of his ideas in doing what he felt lead to do are not what's in question.
If these terrorists are granted opportunities/targets they will attempt to take advantage of it. I'm in favor of limiting their options in the form of reducing exposure. If I want to draw in more targets I'll take one of theirs and let it be known, in the hope of bringing more death and destruction to my enemy.
In other words if the terrorists are trying to be a part of something bigger in regards to the future Tom Fox's over there, they might, have and will repeat this action to that end. Minimum they get one of ours. Limit our exposure. That's plain common sense.
You order me to a rescue mission, I'm gone. But we don't need to add potential fuel to the fire. As a former pastor, believe me when I say I know what Tom hoped for, at least through my own understanding. There is a time and place for almost everything, not everything.
Posted by: forest hunter at March 11, 2006 02:44 AM (Fq6zR)
Posted by: Pringle at March 11, 2006 07:06 AM (u4fsN)
Posted by: Oyster at March 11, 2006 07:10 AM (YudAC)
FH, thanks for the clarification.
Don't get me wrong, none of us bloggers here support the CPT's mission, nor did we agree with why they went to Iraq in the first place.
But being kidnapped and murdered (AP is reporting he died of gunshot wounds, btw) by Islamonutters isn't anything they should have had to endure.
One last thing before I head to work. These posts don't exist in a vacuum. People, namely family and friends, will no doubt go online looking for information. They may stumble across this post. Causing them more pain by nasty comments doesn't do anyone any good.
Posted by: Vinnie at March 11, 2006 07:14 AM (f289O)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 08:44 AM (rUyw4)
The Turks only invaded Europe and Arabia because of America.
The Moors only invaded Spain because of America.
The Persians and Afghans only invaded India because of America.
The Egyptians, Turks, Arabs, and Kurds only invaded the Holy Land because of America.
The Arabs only sided with the Nazi's because of America.
See? It's all America's fault, isn't it? Liberals are all so stupid you should be killed for the good of humanity.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 11, 2006 09:14 AM (0yYS2)
Make your asinine blather somewhere else and some other time.
Posted by: forest hunter at March 11, 2006 09:24 AM (Fq6zR)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 10:04 AM (TcoRJ)
john ryan,
That is slander. I never said it, and I never would say that. Show me the thread and then have the IP checked on it. More likely it's a Lib troll (probably you) dropping turds to make the blog look bad.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 10:36 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 11, 2006 10:58 AM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 11, 2006 11:00 AM (CnDtU)
I find john ryan's intentional slander and lying even more disturbing than maxie's hyperbole. Hey john, fuck off and die asshole.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 11:01 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Graeme at March 11, 2006 11:32 AM (5xq4z)
The "I HOPE THEY ALL DIE" quote was by a Marvin Woods (email - Alexlineman7@aol.com) on Feb 3rd.
Posted by: Oyster at March 11, 2006 11:34 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Graeme at March 11, 2006 11:42 AM (5xq4z)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 12:17 PM (TcoRJ)
yes, please do send it immediately.
Tom Fox was shot in the head, and his body showed signs of TORTURE. They are WORSE than animals. If his death has any meaning at all, it's to let the world know exactly the kind of people we're dealing with.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/11/iraq.hostage/index.html
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 12:22 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 12:25 PM (TcoRJ)
please delete and ban that moron for christ. It's pretty obvious what he's up to.
ryan,
it was hyperbole. But you delivered the goods. What can I say.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 12:39 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 12:55 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 01:04 PM (TcoRJ)
why would I have to state publicly that I am human and make mistakes? That should be obvious. Using hyperbole that can later be used against me is the least of my sins. It's true that I do wish some people death, but not harmless fools like this Tom Fox fellow.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 01:05 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 11, 2006 01:29 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 01:33 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 01:35 PM (8e/V4)
That is why I told you to look at your shoes. So if you're feeling smug right now, remember - "we all make mistakes sometimes" and sometimes we mislead unintentionally with misquotes.
Posted by: Oyster at March 11, 2006 01:59 PM (YudAC)
I'd never retract any comment I've ever made about you John Ryan, you're a useful idiot, with your Iraq hyperbole, and constant anti-military slant, just because you can use copy, and paste to make people feel bad doesn't make you a hero, it makes you a vindictive idiot, who despite Vinnie's comment:
One last thing before I head to work. These posts don't exist in a vacuum. People, namely family and friends, will no doubt go online looking for information. They may stumble across this post. Causing them more pain by nasty comments doesn't do anyone any good.
felt the need to inject comments from an old threat to disparage and place regulars in a bad light.
Here's a clue: if you don't like the people here, or the message : www.dailykos.com , you'll fit right in.
Posted by: davec at March 11, 2006 02:11 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 02:18 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: davec at March 11, 2006 02:22 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 02:22 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 02:28 PM (rUyw4)
This is a Saturday afternoon and I'm feeling kinda' lazy, and since you had already gone to the trouble of trying to find a post to brickbat me with, I was assuming you would have the entire post researched and ready for publication. Am I going to have to go look it up myself?
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 02:57 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 02:58 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: Dadzilla at March 11, 2006 03:01 PM (+bwcF)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 03:05 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 03:09 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 03:12 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: davec at March 11, 2006 03:19 PM (CcXvt)
I was curious to know exactly what they were doing, and wondered if they knew how much danger they were in. I see now that they knew and one has to admire men who stand up for what they believe, even if you think they were wrong. And I pray the grace of God will settle on the friends and family of Mr. Fox. None of them deserved this.
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 03:20 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 03:26 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 03:28 PM (TcoRJ)
JJ,
you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm outside hauling rocks and clearing cedar under the hot Texas sun. It's in the high 80s here.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 03:34 PM (8e/V4)
Do I need to quote your first post on this? Well, here it is since you can't seem to scroll up:
"JLC "I hope they all die""
Since you were unwilling or unable to link to it so anyone could see, we were left to either trust you quoted him correctly or do our own search for the comment. Accuracy has only one meaning. It doesn't mean "almost" or "nearly" or "sort of". The Internet is funny about accuracy. Quoted searches don't work without accuracy. That's why I couldn't find your "quote". Just say you paraphrased rather than try to prove me wrong, because you already lost that one. And since you're so hell bent on getting apologies, why don't you email good ol' Marvin and a few others who made disparaging remarks. I'll leave you to search them out in the archives yourself since you're already so inclined. don't hold your breath waiting on one from me though.
You have a bone to pick here and I find it childish for you to treat others here as if you wouldn't sit next to any of them on a bus. Davec was exactly right about your motives. Do any of us need you to play the role of our conscience? I don't think so.
Posted by: Oyster at March 11, 2006 03:39 PM (YudAC)
Posted by: Graeme at March 11, 2006 04:53 PM (5xq4z)
"Anubis of the internet", now that's just funny, Graeme. My, my, son, you have the gift of gab. LOL!
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 11, 2006 06:15 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Howie at March 11, 2006 06:33 PM (2n0nS)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 06:45 PM (TcoRJ)
Posted by: Howie at March 11, 2006 06:54 PM (D3+20)
Howie, Howie, Howie,
only the Sith think in absolutes. Those murderers... cough!....combatants just have a different point of view. It's all shades of gray out there.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 11, 2006 07:07 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: john ryan at March 11, 2006 07:11 PM (TcoRJ)
Speaking of absolutes is it not silly to think that war is wrong always especially in the face of an enemy that 1 thinks it just fine and dandy and 2 wants to kill you! I think this man was doing the Lords work as best he knew how. I don't fault him I fault the er uh Murderers!! it's a clear cut case if there ever was one.
Posted by: Howie at March 11, 2006 07:41 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: Howie at March 11, 2006 07:44 PM (D3+20)
i feel sorry for his family.
but he was a dupe - at best - who served the enemy.
Posted by: reliapundit at March 11, 2006 11:36 PM (0vNaM)
You're not comprehending what I've said. You're too busy wallowing in your smug condescension.
"How the people who orginally made those comments feel about their comments at this time, is a judgement they alone should make." Yeah, with a little help from you dredging up months-old comments to facilitate their "personal judgements". (BTW: Between the quotation marks above is a proper quote, in case you get me wrong again. I'll link back to it in, oh, say about 3 1/2 months in case you forget your own little lesson in wisdom.)
Posted by: Oyster at March 12, 2006 06:19 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 12, 2006 07:33 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 12, 2006 08:40 AM (CnDtU)
What is it with moonbatism that makes people so stupid.
Praying for her safe return.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 12, 2006 10:08 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 12, 2006 12:20 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 12, 2006 12:31 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 12, 2006 12:49 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 12, 2006 12:55 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 12, 2006 02:46 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 12, 2006 04:09 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 12, 2006 08:32 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 12, 2006 08:59 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Oyster at March 13, 2006 05:58 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 13, 2006 08:04 AM (CnDtU)
March 07, 2006

102 days into their captivity, a video has been broadcast by al Jazeera showing three of four activists held hostage in Iraq. Not shown in the video is American Tom Fox.
The video (no sound) can be seen here.
The video shows Canadians James Loney and Harmeet Singh Sooden, and Briton Norman Kember sitting on chairs. Although no audio was broadcast, al Jazeera reports that the three plead for their governments to help secure their release. The three also ask that Gulf States help them--a less than cryptic message asking for a ransom.
This video is the first in which such a request is made and confirms speculation that 'The Swords of Righteousness Brigade' is after money. The group has been linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq. It is not uncommon in Iraq for 'insurgents' to use ransoms paid for hostages to fund their terroristic activities.
It is not clear what significance, if any exists, there is to the fact that the sole American is not shown on the video. We hope and pray that he remains in good health.
As always, the Left-wing 'Christian' group used the opportunity to highlight their political agenda. In a press statement, the CPT attempted to highlight 'abuses' by the Multinational forces in Iraq. Further, they claim that the 'root cause' of the hostage taking "is the U.S. and British-led invasion and occupation of Iraq."
It's sad and disgusting that supposed 'Christians' would attempt to find fault with those who are trying to rescue the four hostages, rather than with those who are holding them.
We call for the immediate and unconditional release of the four hostages. Those who are holding them bear 100% of the responsibility for this depraved and barbaric act.
For more information on this see our extensive Christian Peacemakers hostage archives. For general information on hostage taking in Iraq see our Religion of Peace hostage archives.
Posted by: Rusty at
08:32 AM
| Comments (57)
| Add Comment
Post contains 322 words, total size 3 kb.
Posted by: Gene at March 07, 2006 08:54 AM (Hhtfi)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- welcome to the upside down world of Liberalism.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 09:03 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 07, 2006 10:03 AM (rUyw4)
How long before people will wake up? Islamists don't care, wether you're there for the good of people. They want cash, and our death.
- Max
Posted by: Max at March 07, 2006 10:07 AM (WM45z)
This video is the first in which such a request is made and confirms speculation that 'The Swords of Righteousness Brigade' is after money.Can you post a link to that report. The Aljazeera report I found makes no mention of ransom: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60840A64-B0D0-4A2E-901A-0D659F7F4623.htm
Thanks.
Posted by: John Stephens at March 07, 2006 10:20 AM (Sxyd3)
Posted by: John Stephens at March 07, 2006 10:24 AM (Sxyd3)
Posted by: Max Power at March 07, 2006 11:15 AM (CnDtU)
Posted by: john ryan at March 07, 2006 11:33 AM (TcoRJ)
The point is, even if these people get beheaded, it theologically won't be martyrdom (In the Christian sense). It'll just be murder, and they'll be just additional victims of the "Minutemen"
Posted by: Paul at March 07, 2006 11:36 AM (KHshG)
Praying for their safe return.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 11:40 AM (8e/V4)
Let's hope for a rescue soon.
Posted by: cdave at March 07, 2006 11:55 AM (CcXvt)
However, in that case, they should be following the example of Ignatius of Antioch and other early martyrs who embraced their martyrdom and didn't engage in cravenly begging for someone to save them from making the ultimate sacrifice for Christ.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at March 07, 2006 12:00 PM (fI2Yv)
I'll buy that. But more likely they were in Iraq out of a commitment to Leftwing politics. Plenty of other places around the globe where people are dying (like Darfur), but in Iraq they think they can stick it "Bush." That's just plain ol moonbattery.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 12:17 PM (8e/V4)
Where's Tom Fox? Holding the camera.
HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX
CPT only goes where there is an anti-western, usually socialist, "resistance". Their entire area of operations are: Chiapas, Columbia, Israel and Iraq. You're right, they'd never take their directive to "get in the way" to Darfur.
HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX HOAX
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 01:04 PM (Z81HX)
It's more likely that they were made to beg for their lives like all the rest are. They're told what to say in these videos. They have a script they are forced to follow. They have firmly said in the past (before the kidnapping) that they do not want anyone to try and rescue them should they be captured.
Posted by: Oyster at March 07, 2006 01:07 PM (n/nt4)
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 01:17 PM (Z81HX)
Posted by: Max Power at March 07, 2006 01:20 PM (CnDtU)
A big thanks to Shackleford for continuing to follow this story. It is not widely followed. Surprise, surprise...not even by the magickal "liberals" that JJ and JC seem to always be at war with.
I also appreciate the extensive linkage to prior discussions. It maintains a continuity of discourse and provides an institutional memory for those who may be joining in late.
The absence of Tom Fox is very concerning. I would note that if the various hostages are truly pleading for their government's to help that both Canada and Britain have made it clear at official levels that they will not negotiate with terrorists, but they are happy to listen to representatives. For some reason, the US has made absolutely no statement whatsoever regarding this hostage taking. It is the dog that did not bark.
You would think that somewhere between the coverage of missing honeymooners, and cute blondes the cable networks would find some time to cover the story. But again, there is a difference on this between the US and the other countries (UK and Canada). Jill Carroll... who we also remember is being held hostage... certainly gets more coverage in the US.
Given the lack of hard information it is unclear who exactly is controlling this situation. Time will tell. The record on this is intact and need not be revisted here. However, I think it is important to set the record straight since some here (even in this thread) feel compelled to malign or ridicule the hostages. Tom Fox was explicit about why he was going to Iraq. He addressed that point in his first entry of his blog Waiting In the Light"
The topic is covered in the entry titled Fight or Flight?
He cites Matthew 5:39 as his foundation. That particular cite, like
"an eye for an eye" is one of the most commonly misquoted lines in the Bible. It is impossible to say what Tom Fox reads into it exactly, but I think it is important to note the literal reading of that text. "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Many mistakenly interpret that to mean "if someone hits you, let him hit you again."
Here is an alternative interpretation: The location of the assault is clearly specified. The Right Cheek. Not the face. Not the jaw. Not the head. Look at yourself in the mirror. Your left cheek's reflection is where another person's right cheek would be if they were facing you. Now standing in front of the mirror, reach up strike that right cheek. If you are right handed, as 85% of people are, you will have to strike them with your back hand. In other words, you will be slapping them, not punching them. That is the assault you would give to one you considered inferior or subordinate...not your equal. By turning to offer the other cheek, you are not inviting them to slap you. You are challenging them to fight you as an equal. By stepping into the lion's den as the CPT4 did, they are not inviting anyone to abuse them. They are challenging everyone to confront what is occuring. And they are willing to do this armed only with their faith.
In conclusion, I don't think it is particularly relevant whether they are "martyrs" or not. What is important is that for those who are seriously concerned about their safety, we must respoect why they made the conscious decision to bear witness to their faith.
I would not be so presumptuous as to put words in Tom Fox's mouth. However, since he is a Quaker, I am sure he would find meaning in this:
"Thou sayest Christ said this and the apostles said that, but what canst thou say?"
-George Fox
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 07, 2006 01:35 PM (l4h/M)
Canada and Britain have made it clear at official levels that they will not negotiate with terrorists, but they are happy to listen to representatives.
I believe that is because like other Governments the official front is "we do not negotiate with Terrorists" but "we do provide the cash to non-government agencies to secure their release"
Why not send ol' Jessie Jackson with a black bag full of Katrina cash to negotiate for their release, damn American hostage policy.
Posted by: cdave at March 07, 2006 02:06 PM (CcXvt)
The CPTs "witnessing" to them consisted of developing these contacts and negotiating this plan: stage a hoax kidnapping to 1) help the insurgency by raising money through ransom, and 2) help the western left by generating a narrative about a humane, principled "resistance" which displays mercy to fellow-travellers.
The CPTs "Get in the way." They perform this sort of service for Hamas, Al Aqsa, the FARC, the ELN, et al, but not for the victims of Darfur's genocide or anyone suffering from real repression. What they do does not indicate "bravery" or require "courage", except to the extent that fraud is a morally daunting undertaking for people who presumably possess concience.
The CPT "hostages" are neither hostages, nor are they in any danger.
When this is exposed, it will be the fourth high-profile hostage hoax, taking its place next to Gulianna Segrina and Susan Osthoff, who was found with a portion of the ransom money after her rescue.
Posted by: clemto at March 07, 2006 02:08 PM (Z81HX)
why the sunday school lesson. are you talking to a christian?
and why are we to trust tom fox's professed motivations as sincere and genuine any more than we should for bush?
lets expand on that: why should matters of state be separated from evangelical christians but not from quakers (who are really more like secular bible interpretationists rather than christians, anyway)?
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 02:17 PM (Z81HX)
Because when Libs cry about "separation of church and state" they only mean CONSERVATIVE church and state. Their phoniness on that issue, as on countless other issues, should go without saying by now.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 02:21 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 02:23 PM (Z81HX)
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 07, 2006 04:09 PM (l4h/M)
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 04:26 PM (Z81HX)
Have you heard a Democrat condemn it? Hell, no, and I know of a case where black churchgoers were allowed to vote on Sunday when the polls were closed to everyone else. What was done? Did the Democrats complain? Hell, no, the Democrats were the ones who opened the Courthouse, manned the voting machines, and allowed these people to vote in clear violation of election laws. Was anything done? You know the answer to that without me telling you.
Yes, Carlos, so much for the Democrats being for separation of Church and State! So much bullshit is what it is.
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 07, 2006 04:35 PM (rUyw4)
This video is the first in which such a request is made and confirms speculation that 'The Swords of Righteousness Brigade' is after money. The group has been linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq. It is not uncommon in Iraq for 'insurgents' to use ransoms paid for hostages to fund their terroristic activities.
We have disputed this before, and I do not wish to revist this beyond citing this AP report, which quotes the Iraqi Interior Minister as claiming Carroll's kidnappers are IAI, but makes no similar claim about the CPT4 kidnappers.
If there was a ransom demand that is new. However, it is not clear how that can be concluded from the reports I have seen. If it was true that would be a cause for relief. If the kidnappers are now demanding money, one hopes they will be careful not to slaughter their golden geese.
Unfortunately, the absence of the American can mean any number of things, so I leave it unresolved for now.
"Too many people are willing to die to wage war, too few are willing to die for peace"
- Tom Fox
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 07, 2006 04:44 PM (l4h/M)
http://www.ratoutachurch.org/
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 04:44 PM (Z81HX)
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 05:52 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 06:02 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 06:15 PM (kGfOr)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 07, 2006 07:38 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 07, 2006 07:52 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: jummy at March 07, 2006 08:21 PM (kGfOr)
Get a load of the guy in the middle picture. His schnoz just about hangs to the ground.
Res ipsa loquitur ... what else can be said? Thanks for being so clear?
RE I.M.
People who are willing to die for peace are called "American soldiers", whereas those who are willing to throw tantrums and commit hoaxes for publicity are called "liberal scum".
I don't agree with your second statement. I'm sure you have someone like Cindy Sheehan in mind when you say that... but it could just as easily be Mort Downey Jr. or Bill O'Reilly going for "tantrums" or "publicity hoaxes". I don't think sensationalism has a political affiliation. I would note the CPT4 are doing neither. And so your comment is not relevant to them.
I have more sympathy for the first part of your statement. What has distinguished the American soldier of the 20th century is his role as liberator, not of occupier. At least that is how we like to view ourselves. And I think it has merit, certainly from the soldier's point of view. I can't say the same for the policymakers. I think Maj. General Smedley Butler spoke very eloquently to that... and I can't improve on anything he said.
But forget about foreign adventures. Look at what happens when we turn on ourselves. Maybe things are too close today to look at dispassionately, but we can look back a century and still see the same dynamic. The soldiers who fought for the Union believed they were fighting for the future survival of the Republic. The soldiers who fought for the Confederacy felt they were being true to the Founding Fathers. That break down in communication is why today people choose to visit either Antietam or Sharpsburg, but rarely both. It doesn't matter they are one and the same.
Same planet, different world.
That is why I am struck by how this situation gets reflected through people as they react to it. I think the prayers offered here for their safe return are genuine. I think some people here relate to and identify with the notion that a person can be motivated by their faith to do something bigger. I think most people here disagee with the choices these people made. But I think they understand them.
In contrast, liberals at dailykos embrace the CPT4 because they agree with their choices. But I don't think they really understand them. Dailykos is certainly not putting them front and center the way The Jawa Report has. The archives here are testimony to that fact.
I think many liberals are frankly uncomfortable with the notion of prayer. Not because they are soulless devil spawn. But because they feel alienated from it. If the sanctimonious platitudes of Pat Robertson are a standard, or the Elmer Gantry's of the mega-churches are a model, who can blame them? It's a shame because like people who only visit Antietam, they miss the message of Sharpsburg.
That's why I think the CPT4 inhabit a privileged space as liberals of faith. They defy the tribal boundaries of red state and blue state. Embraced by different tribes for different reasons, reviled by the same tribes for different reasons, ultimately confronting both tribes with the same challenge.
By "getting in THE WAY" they point to a morality and a responsibility for others that lays beyond the divisions of political systems and culture. Like Buddhist monks on fire they make their statement by their presence.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 07, 2006 10:02 PM (wqzld)
I agree. Liberal christians like these dummies don't fit in with anybody. Secular Libs hold them at arms length because of their religion, and conservatives christians do the same because of their politics. They tend to be irrelevant to the greater struggle for the soul of this country, so they're generally non-threatening in that way. If America is like a family, they are the retarded brother who just doesn't know any better. That's why we at Jawa don't hate them, we only think they're big dummies who are gonna get themselves killed, and maybe even others killed trying to rescue them.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 07, 2006 11:43 PM (8e/V4)
That's a big "if". Because they're not the standard and most other Christians give them a sideways glance as well as verbally denounce any outrageous behavior. Those who "feel uncomfortable" use the Pat Robertsons of the world as an excuse to condemn or reject the rest. It's convenient and intellectually lazy. There are a hundred thousand smaller churches from shore to shore in this country who do good things and don't engage in sensationalism. We just don't see them on cable TV or the news.
I don't claim any religion as my own, but I have the sense to know that the Pat Robertsons of the world don't speak for anyone but themselves nor act in anyone's interests but their own.
As to the Peacemakers:
I, like the rest here, don't wish that these gentlemen meet an untimely or violent end. But that does not preclude them from criticism. I think what they've done is stupid regardless of their motives. And all the talk in the world from anyone wishing to glorify their actions won't change my mind from what I see as plain old suicide.
Posted by: Oyster at March 08, 2006 07:16 AM (YudAC)
However, you cannot ignore the fact that religion has become heavily politicized and that the Republicans have wrapped themselves in the glory of God just as tightly as they wrap themselves in the flag. It is obvious in discussions of the "Religious Right" ,"values voters", and "Bush's base". It was painfully obvious in the Supreme Court nominations of Meiers and Alito. It's obvious on shows like O'Reilleys "Factor"... how many other FOX talking heads were echoing the "war on Christmas" nonsense?
I wouldn't paint the whole lot with Robertson's stench, but the impact of Robertson, Ahmanson, Dobson,and Falwell are not trivial. Just look at the bigotry in this thread and you can see how deep that runs. Two of the biggest bigots are that Heckel and Jeckel team from "jesusland" ...
The flip side is seen when someone like Rev. Lowery gets up and delivers a eulogy at Coretta Scott King's funeral ...all of a sudden its a source of outrage. If that's a problem, all I can say is Cheney is lucky Whittington had thicker skin than George.
As to the Peacemakers:
The fact that no one in this administration has made any statement at all regarding them is stunning. However, it is consistent. In the run up to the invasion of Iraq George W Bush refused to meet with many church leaders who opposed the war. Even now, he refuses to meet with CPT directors.
I understand why people criticize them. However, those who have taken the time to understand their history, why they were there, and what they were doing have more credibility in my eyes than those who reflexively condemn them.
As for the "suicide" comment, there is a world of difference between these men and the utopian idealists who thought they were going to some sort of "human shield" protecting Iraq from invasion. These aren't romantics who think they can help wild Grizzlies find their inner Gentle Ben. Tom Fox certainly knew what he was walking in to and the only reason I focus on him is he wrote it down.
Maybe you think their actions are unwise, or untimely.
Maybe you think they are outside agitators.
Maybe you think they should stick to their own kind.
Maybe you think this is not their fight.
Those are the very reasons King wrote his Letter from the Birmingham Jail. If you understand the model of non-violent campaigns laid out early in that letter, it is obvious how the CPT4 are actually being very consistent with their faith and that message.
Finally, I would point these people are not operating in a vacuum. They have been in Iraq for years. Fox organized Muslim Peacemaker Teams of Shi'ites and Sunnis working together to remove trash from Fallujah. It would be a hell of a lot easier for them to stay home and participate in street theater. It would have been easier for King to stay home too. But that is not a real option for someone moved to bear witness. In spite of their differences, I think men like Desmond Doss , Alvin York and Smedley Butler would understand that.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 08, 2006 09:37 AM (1bfAN)
hahaha! a "eulogy", was it?
The GOP is only able to "wrap" itself in the glory that are christianity and the flag precisely because you Libs have avoided both like the bubonic plague. Blame yourselves for demonizing patriots and christians, not the GOP for giving them a voice.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 08, 2006 09:53 AM (8e/V4)
republicans don't own god, but progressives own christian-bashing. in this fashion, progressives owe it to themselves to reconcile their hatred of evangelicals, catholics and orthodox jews for "claiming to own god" with the notion that christian doctrines which conform to "social justice" represent the true word of christ.
there is no basis for quakers to claim gods own infallible rightiousness for themselves. the work done by a cpt when he's "getting in the way" is no more an act of god than the work done by the u.s. soldier he seeks to obstruct. these are the works of men. in the cpt's case, in which their works consist of providing false witness and cover for progressive groups like the farc, it is the work of men who historically have enslaved and murdered millions.
"the way" they're getting in when they're getting in the way of counter-insurgency actions is the way of marx and wallerstein and gramsci and alinski and chomsky. none of these figures are christ. many of the "religious left" surely percieve such a mirage, but many others see an opportunity to camoflage alinsky in the blood of christ.
and so the cpt press release on the "hostages" veered off to take an incongruous swipe at evangelicals. and went on to condemn bush and the war and everything periferal to the situation except hostage-taking or mosque-bombing. cpts won't even show their faces in television interviews; they know that what they're doing wrong.
the fact is that "non-violence" is meaningless when it deploys itsself as an asset of violence. non-violence which sheilds mosque-bombers is no more non-violent than the getaway driver in a bank robbery is a non-theif. what the cpts are doing in iraq is not non-violence, it is not rightiousness and it is not right.
i don't agree that u.s. soldiers' ideal of themselves as liberators is all in their heads, as you contend. or maybe its in my head as well. it also seems to be in the heads of many of those who have been liberated by u.s. troops. its in the heads of the vietnamese who fled to the u.s. once progressives succeded in breaking america's promise and left the south to be brutally overtaken by secular butchers who proceded to slaughter 100,000 and intern millions more in prison camps.
it was at this point that quakers decided there was nothing to object to, that there was nothing to "get in the way" of. they have not revisited the situation in vietnam since, preferring to slur conventional christians and throw tantrums over whether or not they own the true word of christ.
they make a poor case, and when they comphensate by spewing bible phrases, they sound like the charicature of evangelicals they are quick to deride; they sound like cynical demegogues who've learned the trick of religious-speak.
Posted by: jummy at March 08, 2006 11:29 AM (Z81HX)
Posted by: jummy at March 08, 2006 11:33 AM (Z81HX)
Democrats demonizing Christians?
You must have been listening to John Hostettler, R-Ind. Of course he had to retract that hate-mongering.
sheeesh....
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 08, 2006 11:36 AM (lukak)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 08, 2006 12:07 PM (8e/V4)
As if this wasn't what this country was built on? And I find it unconscionable that the very mention of God and country at any level these days is ripe for scorn and ridicule to many degrees.
I'll tell you what I fear most with this whole religious mess - the movement to remove religion from public discussion and from God having any connection to our government is that once this has been achieved, who exactly is it that has bestowed our rights on us if not God? And then who is it that can take them away?
Posted by: Oyster at March 08, 2006 12:07 PM (rf0W8)
also, that link is almost a year old and reports on essentially nothing. your rage must have a long and vivid memory.
Posted by: jummy at March 08, 2006 12:12 PM (Z81HX)
I am glad to see you admit to listening to voices in your head.... now HEY!!! out here in the real world someone is actually talking to you.... so pay attention
First, where is it written that Quakers "claim God's own rightous infallibility for themselves"? Show me.... because I can show you plenty of examples where prominent Quakers have said exactly the opposite.
For example, consider the public statement by Lucretia Mott at Thomas Garrett's funeral in 1871. After many lauded that well-respected Quaker for his many good deeds during his decades of service to the Underground Railroad, she was moved to comment on the constant references to his Quaker faith. William Still recorded her statement in "The Underground Railroad" thus:
"Lucretia Mott arose, and said she feared the claim might appear to be made that Quakerism alone held the great central principle which dominated this man's life; but she wished it understood that they recognized this "voice within" as leading and guiding all men, and they probably meant by it much the same as those differing from them meant by the Third person in their Trinity. She did not wish, even in appearance, to claim a belief in this voice for her own sect alone. "
Second, I never said the idea of liberator was all in the soldier's heads. I said the opposite. Let me repeat it for you so you don't have to hurt yourself looking for it:
I think it has merit, certainly from the soldier's point of view. I can't say the same for the policymakers. I think Maj. General Smedley Butler spoke very eloquently to that... and I can't improve on anything he said.
FYI... if you want to quote me out of context at least try it on a page where my black letter text isn't staring you in the face.
Third, What are you babbling about with the "non-violence that shields mosque-bombers" non sequitor? Show me where CPT has aided either before, after or during the fact such an act.... this I gotta see.
Fourth, about your canard that Quakers "have not revisited the situation in vietnam since" the end of the war.... Google is your friend.
But since you are too lazy to look up facts that might get in the way of your mendacity (look it up)... here's some of what the American Friends Service Committee is doing in Vietnam through their Quaker Service Vietnam (QSV) program:
Rural Development Program:
In Thanh Hoa province, QSV assists four or five communities (each with a population of 5,000 to 7,000) to achieve year-round food security. It also has provided credit to more than 5,000 people, primarily in families headed by women. This program includes an agriculture project, a Community development project, and an emergency relief project.
They also run a Vietnam International Affairs Program which amongst other things, includes helping Vietnamese and American individuals and organizations address the ongoing problem of unexploded ordnance and Agent Orange residue.
BTW....AFSC has been providing continuous assistance to both South Viet Nam (since 1966) and North Viet Nam (since 1969) for decades, and the QSV has been established as a stand alone operation on a continuous basis for 15 years. So I guess if they never left it is technically correct to say they "have not revisted the situation." But we all know that is not how you meant it.
Finally, Let me make this clear enough so even you can understand it. Just because I think you act like a bigot doesn't mean I hate you. Before you try to tar me with your "hating patriots" crap I suggest you have a discussion with yourself in the mirror. That is precisely the sort of straw man projection spewed by the jesusland boys. It's lame.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 08, 2006 12:38 PM (qwh2Y)
"...Republicans have wrapped themselves in the glory of God just as tightly as they wrap themselves in the flag."
Which is what I said, but then you go on to misinterpret my position.
As if this wasn't what this country was built on? And I find it unconscionable that the very mention of God and country at any level these days is ripe for scorn and ridicule to many degrees.
My point is that neither the flag, nor religion, nor the Constitution belongs to any one party. Period. Full stop. But the kind of venom you hear from Republicans like Hostettler, Falwell, Dobson, and others... and clearly embraced by people on this very thread.... pretends that all of those (God,flag,Constitution) are Republican property.
That's the sort of environment that allows people like Coulter to label 50% of the voters as "traitors". Your next point deserves comment
I'll tell you what I fear most with this whole religious mess - the movement to remove religion from public discussion and from God having any connection to our government is that once this has been achieved, who exactly is it that has bestowed our rights on us if not God? And then who is it that can take them away?
I think that would be a problem if it was happening. Take the 10 Commandments case. When you go into court is that governed by the Constitution or the Bible? And even if you want to go with the idea that the Constitution is inspired by the Bible... which version of the 10 Commandments are we going to use? The Jewish version? The Catholic version? The Protestant version? There are real differences there.
That's the point of separation... we have a diversity of religious beliefs, but we share a common government. Look what Republicans in Missouri are trying to by legislating Christianity as the majority religion. If that is true why do you have to legislate it? You want an idea of where that leads... look at Israel.
You know the next step.... we've seen it right here in this thread. Apparently some people here think some Christians are better than others (e.g., Methodists are reasonable suspects of terrorism, Quakers aren't even real Christians.) You think that is unlikely... again look at Israel. There has been a long standing feud about "who is a Jew" and guess what... when it comes to political, and economic matters.. Conservative zealots get to decide. So if you are a Reform Jew, you don't count unless that conversion occurred IN ISRAEL.
Call me a revisionist, but I don't recall the Nazis putting Orthodox Jews in the showers and handing out Towelettes to the Reform Jews. By the same token, I don't recall the terrorists who attacked the WTC giving Democrats three steps head start.
The flag is merely a symbol of our national unity. The UNION is more delicate. It rests in the Constitution and everything that document inspires. That is what binds us. The flag and the constitution belong to no party. When someone wraps themselves in the flag they are by definition excluding others. That's a problem.
Where I think we have common ground is that religion is personal and inviolate. When a political party wraps itself in the mantle of God, they are likewise excluding others. That is a real problem. We have learned through bitter experience that if you mix politics and religion people get burned at the stake.
This will sound strange to you, and I don't expect you to believe it... but if Republicans stopped using the flag as a sword and religion as a cudgel, people would be a lot less nervous when they brandish them. Norman Rockwell captures that sentiment much more powerfully in Prayer than he does in Freedom of Worship
If you are talking about Norman Rockwell's "Prayer" we are on the same page. And so are most Americans, left, right and center. Those who oppose that have no standing and threaten our basic rights.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 08, 2006 01:27 PM (+qTZu)
noise,
You're right, I don't believe it. I spent most of my life trying to be a christian amongst Liberals back in my Lib days. Finally, I just got tired of apologizing for my faith. Finally, I realized that the myth of Liberal tolerance was just that-- a myth.
This may sound strange to you, and I don't expect you to believe it, but if Liberals stopped hating christianity and the flag, and looking down their nose at patriotism (a product of the maggot-infested hippie/vietnam era) the GOP wouldn't be able to brandish them as a cudgel anymore. You don't like it? Then stop being such a bigot and traitor.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 08, 2006 01:47 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 08, 2006 02:16 PM (+qTZu)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 08, 2006 03:20 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at March 08, 2006 04:21 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 09, 2006 06:18 AM (0yYS2)
It won't stop there and these are only two issues out of so many. So when others push back, they're called bigots. They're said to be wrapping themselves in the flag and claiming God as their own. How many times in the past have other politicians of both persuasions invoked God in their speeches? Too many to count for too many years. Who cared? No one. I guess it's no secret that 50% percent of the country hates Bush so when he talks about his faith, it's something else to beat him over the head with and when other republicans jumped to his defense (the democrats weren't going to) suddenly the republican party is a religious wingnut group. The harder one side pushes, the harder the other side pushes back.
I can't speak for Missouri. I don't know enough about what's going on there. And if Republicans in Missouri are going too far with legislation, then it should be addressed, but again it's painting everyone with a broad brush by implying the politicians in Missouri are indicative of those in every state. They're only pushing back, even if they are going too far. A line must be drawn, but that line must not be pushed so far back that everyone is afraid to whisper about their own beliefs.
Fascism can come from both sides, not just the religious side.
The point I'm making is that this had a beginning. And that beginning was fueled by people like Newdow, the ACLU and others who started with slapping labels on everyone and insisting they had a right not to be offended by someone's overt claim of faith.
We had a situation recently right here in my town. A gentleman applied for a permit this last Christmas season to erect a nativity scene next to the town square Christmas tree. His permit was rejected. However, right there in the town square was a twelve foot Menorah. He sued the city for rejecting his permit. And he won. And he should have, because of the ignorance of those who said there couldn't be any religious displays. They said the menorah wasn't indicative of any religion. That it was just a candle stick. The fact is that the Menorah is almost the equivalent of the Christian cross.
Frankly, I couldn't see the problem with having either display. In fact, I wrote a letter to the city and suggested they encourage others to make displays for the season and that the city should set aside space for exactly that. There's certainly enough room there. Why shouldn't religion be expressed, even celebrated? Why should anyone be scorned for expressing, in a peaceful manner, their beliefs?
You complain about those in Missouri using legislation wrongly. It goes both ways. There are those using legislation, even the Supreme Court to push legislation the other way. Hence my point about who has bestowed our rights on us if not something higher than mortal man. We're treading in dangerous territory here. The fact is that religion is under attack, not just Christianity. Christianity is just a scapegoat because it's the majority religion here. Once these insidious people get that taken care of, they'll go after the rest. And soon we're ripe for communism.
Don't like Robertson? Expose him. Don't like Falwell? Expose what's wrong with him. Don't poke holes in your own ship because you don't like the direction the ship is going in.
Posted by: Oyster at March 09, 2006 07:51 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 09, 2006 07:56 AM (0yYS2)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060311/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/hostage_killed
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 10, 2006 03:10 PM (CnDtU)
"We belong to the camp of peace... This is our camp. May God bless you with the realization that you must join it and we pray that He will, but otherwise we are not ashamed, nor are we afraid, nor are we anything but determined to fulfill the legacy for which my friend fell, as did my grandfather in this very city when I was with him and but a young boy. He was a man of courage, a man of vision and he was endowed with one of the greatest virtues that any man can have. He was endowed with humility... He had a commitment to peace, and standing here, I commit before you, before my people in Jordan, before the world, myself to continue with our utmost, to ensure that we leave a similar legacy. And when my time comes, I hope it will be like my grandfather's and like Yitzhak Rabin's."
"Nevertheless his story was not written out, and can only be hinted at...the appalling nature of his sufferings rendered the pen powerless, and made the heart too sick for the task."
- William Still
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at March 10, 2006 03:37 PM (K5Ko+)
10 March 2006
In grief we tremble before God who wraps us with compassion. The death of our beloved colleague and friend pierces us with pain. Tom Fox’s body was found in Baghdad yesterday.
Christian Peacemaker Teams extends our deep and heartfelt condolences to the family and community of Tom Fox, with whom we have traveled so closely in these days of crisis.
We mourn the loss of Tom Fox who combined a lightness of spirit, a firm opposition to all oppression, and the recognition of God in everyone.
We renew our plea for the safe release of Harmeet Sooden, Jim Loney and Norman Kember. Each of our teammates has responded to Jesus’ prophetic call to live out a nonviolent alternative to the cycle of violence and revenge.
In response to Tom’s passing, we ask that everyone set aside inclinations to vilify or demonize others, no matter what they have done. In Tom’s own words: "We reject violence to punish anyone. We ask that there be no retaliation on relatives or property. We forgive those who consider us their enemies. We hope that in loving both friends and enemies and by intervening nonviolently to aid those who are systematically oppressed, we can contribute in some small way to transforming this volatile situation.â€
Even as we grieve the loss of our beloved colleague, we stand in the light of his strong witness to the power of love and the courage of nonviolence. That light reveals the way out of fear and grief and war.
Through these days of crisis, Christian Peacemaker Teams has been surrounded and upheld by a great outpouring of compassion: messages of support, acts of mercy, prayers, and public actions offered by the most senior religious councils and by school children, by political leaders and by those organizing for justice and human rights, by friends in distant nations and by strangers near at hand. These words and actions sustain us. While one of our teammates is lost to us, the strength of this outpouring is not lost to God’s movement for just peace among all peoples.
At the forefront of that support are strong and courageous actions from Muslim brothers and sisters throughout the world for which we are profoundly grateful. Their graciousness inspires us to continue working for the day when Christians speak up as boldly for the human rights of thousands Iraqis still detained illegally by the United States and United Kingdom.
Such an outpouring of action for justice and peace would be a fitting memorial for Tom. Let us all join our voices on behalf of those who continue to suffer under occupation, whose loved ones have been killed or are missing. In so doing, we may hasten the day when both those who are wrongly detained and those who bear arms will return safely to their homes. In such a peace we will find solace for our grief.
Despite the tragedy of this day, we remain committed to put into practice these words of Jim Loney: “With the waging of war, we will not comply. With the help of God’s grace, we will struggle for justice. With God’s abiding kindness, we will love even our enemies.†We continue in hope for Jim, Harmeet and Norman’s safe return home safe.
Posted by: FriendofTom at March 10, 2006 11:14 PM (BW0Au)
March 06, 2006
It is sad that Left wing organizations continue to use the hostage situation for their own political goals.
We pray for their immediate and unconditional release.
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Posted by: jesusland joe at March 06, 2006 10:30 AM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 06, 2006 12:40 PM (CnDtU)
No, they didn't. That makes them genuine, sincere morons.
Praying for their safe return.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 06, 2006 01:59 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 06, 2006 04:00 PM (CnDtU)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 06, 2006 06:42 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Robert Savage at March 06, 2006 07:56 PM (CnDtU)
January 28, 2006

The video is a very bad sign. While al Jazeera chose not to air the audio from it, the video is said to demand the release of all Iraqi prisoners or the four Western hostages will be murdered. Up to this point, speculation has abounded that the 'Swords of Righteousness Brigade', the organization behind the hostage crisis, was a criminal organization interested in ransoming the hostages for money.
However, The Jawa Report was the first media outlet to reveal the 'The Swords of Righteousness Brigade' may be a front for the radical Islamist terror organization, The Islamic Army in Iraq. Analysts working for major MSM outlets later confirmed our initial reports.
The Islamic Army in Iraq has murdered foreign hostages in the past, including Italian Red Cross worker Enzo Baldoni, and has worked with Abu Musab al Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq in the past.
More recent reports indicate that The Islamic Army in Iraq (IAI) has broken any ties it had with al Qaeda. There is even some indication that IAI and al Qaeda are openly fighting in some areas.
Thanks to George for sending this link LTV:
Al-Jazeera television broadcast the video Saturday showing the four hostages standing against a wall. The four have been held hostage since November 26, 2005 and is the only evidence of the four peace workers still being alive after the first deadline passed in early December.The kidnappers, a group calling themselves the Swords of Righteousness, believe the men were spying for U.S.-led forces and threatened to kill them if Iraqis were not released from U.S. and Iraqi prisons.
The group issued a statement saying this was the "last chance" for authorities to release all Iraqi prisoners or "the hostages will be killed."
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Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 28, 2006 02:49 PM (FBm0F)
Posted by: Jester at January 28, 2006 04:17 PM (j1IVy)
Posted by: hondo at January 28, 2006 05:15 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Jamie at January 28, 2006 10:02 PM (Hhtfi)
I am still skeptical about that connection. As you know IAI was formed with significant membership from Abu Abbas's Palestinian Liberation Front. Moreover, the IAI established an Al Aqsa Martyrs support group a few weeks back. Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade was one of the groups actually calling for the release of these hostages.
The IAI connection does not make sense, especially with the re-emergence of this story after so much down time.
The re-emergence of this story prior to the State of the Union is more consistent with the alternative possibility that the kidnappers are trying to deflect attention away from death squads associated with Iraqi Police Commando units.
The long time off the radar would be consistent with the time needed to disband and bury operations, much like the moving of prisoners from European jails prior to Condi's recent trip to Europe.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at January 29, 2006 12:31 AM (K5Ko+)
And the timing, wow, right before the State of the Union address. Yes, that's it, the timing is consistent with burying the operations that no one has heard of. Yes, now that is indeed logical, and here I've accused the Left of not thinking logically in the past, now to be proven wrong. Just goes to show you how people can change.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 29, 2006 03:02 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: sandpiper at January 29, 2006 05:32 PM (r8sk+)
Posted by: opine6 at January 29, 2006 08:22 PM (ahqxj)
Posted by: john at January 30, 2006 12:29 AM (Sxyd3)
Posted by: sandpiper at January 30, 2006 09:32 AM (A2P9P)
Remember the Feb. 2003 tape that the Bush Administration (in the person of Sec. Powell) tried to use to claim there was "proof" of a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda?
"On Tuesday, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell dropped a bombshell at a Congressional hearing on Iraq and revealed that he had a transcript of an "upcoming" audio message from Osama bin Laden that betrays the links between bin Laden and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "
Upon careful scrutiny of the audio message from bin Laden (and broadcast at 3pm EST on the Arabic News Network Al-Jazeerah), it appears the Bush administration may have been so desperate to pin anything on Saddam and bin Laden that they did not wait to actually hear the contents of the message, nor provide adequate and reliable translation.
Here are other links with basically the same conclusion:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/02/12/wirq1...
http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-05-03.html
But Wait! It gets Better!!!
re: AQ and Iraq you might be interested in this lil tidbit straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030131-23.html
Q One question for you both. Do you believe that there is a link between Saddam Hussein, a direct link, and the men who attacked on September the 11th?
THE PRESIDENT: I can't make that claim.
THE PRIME MINISTER: That answers your question.
I suppose sandpiper is now going to claim it was not Al Qaeda that attacked on 9.11...... but someone else?
Unfortunately, putting everyone you don't like into the "axis of evil" and blaming them for international terrorists muddies the water and loses you allies. That is why even Iran and the Organization of Islamic Countries supported the US invasion of Afghanistan but not even Canada or NATO supported the invasion of Iraq.
==
The only generals in favor of invading Iraq
were General Electric and General Dynamics
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at January 30, 2006 12:32 PM (K5Ko+)
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 30, 2006 04:40 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at January 31, 2006 12:51 AM (K5Ko+)
Posted by: poker rules at March 06, 2006 06:57 AM (Kb6FV)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are to believe the liberal media Norman Kember is a 'peace activist' who went to Iraq on a Christian peace mission.
However, to those who watch Iraq more closely Norman Kember is a dangerous man.
His mission in Iraq was to do all in his power and the power of his group to give moral support to the terrorists and insurgents and to oppose the democracy that 85% of the Iraqi electorate choose.
He was not in Iraq trying to make peace, he was not in Iraq telling different groups to come together in peace but to lend his moral support to al Qaeda, Insurgents and followers of Muqtadar al Sadr asking them to make human rights allegations against the Iraqi government and the coalition.
That is what caused his capture, he was convinced that the insurgents would welcome him with open arms but those arms closed on him and now he is in captivity.
He is a burden to his captors, a burden to the Iraqi people and the only positive aspect of all this is that he is safely off the streets where he and his group could only encourage further terrorism.
I sincerely hope that coalition forces are doing nothing to assist finding him and that no US troops are exposed to any risks on his behalf.
What the insurgents hope to gain by holding him is anybodies guess, but I hope that they do everyone a favour by continuing to do so.
If they decide to fry him I personally wont shed any tears, anything would be preferable to having him do the rounds on the Western liberal media and the Arab newschannels sowing further bile against the Coalition and democracy in Iraq.
Posted by: missinsi at March 07, 2006 08:29 AM (Rd4kV)
December 16, 2005
Norman Kember of England, American Thomas Fox, and Canadians James Loney and Harmeet Singh Sooden were taken hostage by an unknown group calling themselves 'The Swords of Righteousness Brigade'. 'As first revealed at The Jawa Report, The Swords of Righteousness Brigade' has been linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq. The Islamic Army in Iraq is an al Qaeda linked Salaafist jihadi group that has murdered foreign hostages in the past.
Curiously, the Islamic Army in Iraq website has been silent on the fate of the four hostages. Even more curious is the fact that although the group claimed responsibility for the murder of American hostage Ronald Schulz at an online forum frequented by jihadis, the Islamic Army in Iraq website has made no mention of it nor have they released the usual hostage snuff video.
The fact that the negotiator sent in to obtain the release of the four hostages may have been taken hostage himself is a bad sign. Hope for the best, pray for a miracle, but be prepared for the worst.
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Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 16, 2005 04:48 PM (0yYS2)
/smartass mode
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 16, 2005 05:04 PM (JQjhA)
Kinds of reminds me of something?
oh! yes:
There was an old lady who swallowed a fly
I don't know why she swallowed a fly - perhaps she'll die!
There was an old lady who swallowed a spider,
That wriggled and wiggled and tiggled inside her;
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly;
I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die!
There was an old lady who swallowed a bird;
How absurd to swallow a bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly;
I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die!
Posted by: dave at December 16, 2005 05:13 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 16, 2005 05:25 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: hondo at December 16, 2005 05:46 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 16, 2005 06:35 PM (oC6D4)
Posted by: Sairah Khan at December 16, 2005 07:08 PM (mjsuO)
Posted by: hondo at December 16, 2005 07:11 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 16, 2005 07:14 PM (0yYS2)
I have a dog in the fight. More specifically, and more respectfully, I mean Norman Kember. It's gotten pretty frustrating to wait without any news. In a sense that's a good thing because the lack of murder videos and statements of responsibility implies that the hostages are still alive. I will continue to join people like Sairah Khan and many others in prayer.
Posted by: Uncle Ben at December 16, 2005 07:22 PM (g4Hi+)
I mean when they kill someone they show it and in the case of Schulz in the first video of his abduction the video cuts out the people around him and no video on his so called murder ??? just makes no sense.
Anyone with ideas on it ?
Posted by: chase at December 16, 2005 07:24 PM (kTKtl)
Posted by: hondo at December 16, 2005 07:27 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 17, 2005 05:31 AM (oC6D4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 17, 2005 09:22 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Jester at December 17, 2005 01:59 PM (0zfa5)
Maxie has an excellent point. You can tell an enemy to go fuck himself; or you can tell a friend to go fuck himself - same word/expression but two different meanings in context.
Dr Rusty would consider this a prime example of irony.
I consider it a testament to the versatility of the english word - fuck.
Posted by: hondo at December 17, 2005 03:04 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 21, 2005 03:18 AM (pSK/I)
December 13, 2005
The kidnappers holding four Christian activists hostage are connected to the Islamic Army in Iraq (IAI), one of the country's leading insurgent groups, a U.S. researcher said yesterday.You'll notice that SITE came across the link a week ago, while The Jawa Report (with thanks to Tribeca and OVO) was reporting on the connection before they even discovered it:Although the previously unknown Swords of Righteousness Brigades has claimed it kidnapped the two Canadians, one Briton and one American, the SITE Institute said it had found ties to the Islamic Army. At least two of the videotaped statements issued by the hostage-takers were uploaded on to a hidden directory on the IAI Web site prior to broadcast, suggesting a link to the insurgent group, Rita Katz said.
"I would say that there is a strong connection between the hostage-takers and the Islamic Army," said Ms. Katz, director of SITE, a U.S. terrorist research organization that monitors jihadist Internet activities.
If correct, the link is worrisome because the Islamic Army has killed most of the hostages it has taken, including Italian journalist Enzo Baldoni. A statement from the group last week claimed that American consultant Ronald Allen Schulz had been executed....
The SITE Institute came across the IAI link last week, when the kidnappers issued a videotaped statement extending the deadline for meeting its demands until Saturday.
The video showed Canadian hostages James Loney, 41, and Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32, as well as U.S. hostage Tom Fox, 54, and Briton Norman Kember, 74. All are members of the Christian Peacemaker Teams.That hidden directory was first discovered by Tribeca, a mutual friend of Infovlad and The Jawa Report. The directory has been since deleted.Ms. Katz said the video was hidden on a part of the Islamic Army Web site that only those in contact with the administrator would have been able to access. The research group later discovered that another video issued by the kidnappers had also been uploaded on to the Islamic Army site. "Apparently the first video that was received was also posted on that same hidden directory," she said.
She did not go public with the information at the time, fearing it could prompt the kidnappers to kill the hostages. Instead, she alerted U.S. investigators in Iraq.I also alerted the Feds on this, and now that this is in the open, that was why I deleted a certain mysterious post.
But she said now that the deadline has passed without word of the fate of the hostages, she felt it was time to make public the link to the major insurgent group, the second- or third-largest in Iraq....Here is how we first reported the connection: more...The nature of the relationship between the hostage-takers and the Islamic Army remains unclear, but is being investigated by U.S. authorities. One expert speculated the Swords of Righteousness could be nothing more than a front for the Islamic Army, possibly set up to raise money through ransom while distancing itself from the unsavoury act of kidnapping for money.
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What do you make of their silence?
Thanks,
Jill
Posted by: Jill at December 13, 2005 12:01 PM (pbum3)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 13, 2005 12:04 PM (JQjhA)
Or, more accurately, they realize they've fucked up and kidnapped the wrong people. I mean, not even hardline extremists have their backs on this one. So, what do they do? They can't kill them because they'll drive even more Muslims away from their brand of thinking. But they can't let them go, because then it looks like they've capitulated or have admitted they've fucked up.
Posted by: Venom at December 13, 2005 12:48 PM (dbxVM)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 13, 2005 01:17 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Jester at December 13, 2005 02:15 PM (wBDaS)
But they aren't dumb (presumably), just evil. Is it possible that they realize they miscalculated in the Hassan and Baldoni cases?
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 13, 2005 02:50 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 13, 2005 03:04 PM (0yYS2)
Btw, linked to this story, but haven't been able to ping your site with a trackback for some time now.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 13, 2005 03:10 PM (RHG+K)
Posted by: Venom at December 13, 2005 03:21 PM (dbxVM)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 13, 2005 03:22 PM (rUyw4)
Get a life hippy.
Posted by: dave at December 13, 2005 03:32 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Howie at December 13, 2005 03:38 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: Howie at December 13, 2005 04:44 PM (D3+20)
if you recall, she has reported on several occassions that these groups are also becoming more conscious and have been recieving "warnings" from their "friends" to be careful of when and where they send out their "communiques" for fear of being caught
kudos to both you and rita for picking up on that link between the two groups. somehow i am not surprised. there is always something strange with those who hide their faces. it reminds me of the old southern police forces and the KKK.
keep up the excellent work.
Posted by: CTT at December 13, 2005 05:06 PM (ZTXJH)
This did not sit well with Jaques Chiraq and the Batthists.
I do not believe for one second that the Christian Peacemakers who were there for two plus years had no insight into something that did not sit well with someone over there. This is the reason they have been taken and not released.
Their organization is very pro Palestinian and one of the Canadians was very active in the Palestinian cause. They f****ed up indeed, just as they did with Daniel Pearl who had pictures taken with Sheik Yassin and just as Zarqawi did by shooting up a Palestinian wedding party in Jordan. But it is most likely too late.
Posted by: CTT at December 13, 2005 05:11 PM (ZTXJH)
Background,
and why would jihadists respond to the "worldwide" pleas of muslims? Isn't it your story that these terrorists aren't true muslims?
Talk about a Freudian slip.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 13, 2005 05:31 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 13, 2005 06:36 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Vinnie at December 13, 2005 06:43 PM (Kr6/f)
Terrorists bad.... death squads bad.
It's not a zero sum game.
The "Salvador Option" may have worked against poor peasants in Central American rainforests... but extra judicial assassinations haven't really gotten the Israelis very far now have they?
Painting all Muslims as rabid death cultists is as irresponsible as painting all Americans as Halliburton apologists.
There is no question that Hamas, Hezbollah, and most of the other known terrorist organizations that jumped on the "free the hostage" bandwagon are merely looking for some cheap publicity. But how do you explain the ordinary people demonstrating every day in the West Bank? How do you explain Muslims in Canadian detention?
The fact is the CPT 4 do have credibility amongst Palestinians. That is why they were travelling with Iraqi Palestinians and visiting Sunni clerics. Those are the groups being targeted by Shi'ite death squads.
Folks here claim a) they have evidence of files linking IAI to the kidnappers, b) Rita Katz plagiarized the findings. OK... is there any forensics to back up their assertion?
Rita Katz has noted in at least one interview that groups actually steal each others tapes in an effort to claim credit. How do you know where the tapes came from?
Here's the thing about IAI that raises a question for me... the CPT 4 are well regarded and well known by Palestinians... They are in Iraq investigating death squad activities that target Palestinians.
IAI originally included former militants from the Palestine Liberation Front. That is the group started by Abu Abbas. The PLF are allied with Fatah. Even Fatah's militant wing, Al Aqsa Martyrs, is calling for the release of the hostages....
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 14, 2005 01:35 AM (wsdWU)
Yet, they continue with the stark silence on the bleak atmosphere found in Fallujah with copious amounts of blood, executed bodies and those fortunate enough to be found chained and tortured, but still alive. Not to mention their lack of concern for all the other hostages brutally murdered who never did a thing to anyone.
The groups screaming bloody murder about mistreatment at the hands of Shias while remaining silent on the daily murders of innocent people in Iraq and everywhere else in the world by Sunnis, Wahabis and Qutbs is what I find disgusting and duplicitous. And they make fun of the US with their slogan "Don't do as I do, do as I say"? Hello?
Background Noise can barely contain his glee at the hope of further discrediting more Americans. No matter how far he has to stretch truth or what weak connections he has to make. If he wants an explanation of those "ordinary people" demonstrating everyday - they're doing that in larger numbers everywhere. They're sick and damn tired of terrorism, expecially now that they realize they're tragets too. They're demonstrating in Jordan, Pakistan India and even here in the US. They're releasing some pretty strong statements denouncing terrorism in all its forms and the press is largely ignoring it or merely mentioning these statements as an aside. But let the terror groups utter a single word an it's splashed across the front page.
As I've said before, the CPTers don't care when people are mistreated unless the mistreatment is a retaliation or defense. They're anti-war and there's no war unless someone fights back. And CPT's goal is to document anything wrong, no matter how minute, committed by those who fight back - completely ignoring who started it and what atrocities they may have committed.
I find it all deplorable and Background Noise and others play willingly into their propaganda scheme.
Posted by: Oyster at December 14, 2005 06:22 AM (YudAC)
First, the issue of the IAI raises questions for me. They were founded in part by former PLF members. Given the fact the CPT 4 are well known and generally adored by Palestinians, it seems odd that a group containing PLF fighters would do anything to harm them. Especially when the most radical elements of Fatah (e.g. Al Aqsa Martyrs) are calling for their release.
Second, for those who think I am painting this as "terrorist good ....America bad".... let be very clear about my motivations here. There are two. First is doing whatever can be done to increase the survivability of the hostages.
Since this hostage ordeal began, most efforts on behalf of the hostages were aimed at publicizing Muslim appeals for their release because everyone assumed jihadists were holding them. These do not seem to be having any impact. If the kidnappers are related to death squads, let us hope the people who have control over them realize that if these hostages are killed, even US major media will have to cover the story in some detail. The reason they went to Iraq will inevitably become a topic of discussion. That would naturally focus worldwide attention on the "special police and military units" they were investigating in the first place.
Third has to do with our obligation to support our troops. I know people who have been deployed. I know people who ARE deployed. I know people who have lost children. The people serving are not an abstraction to me.
The vast majority of Americans serving in Iraq are decent men and women trying as hard as they can to do the right thing even though they are working under terrible conditions. Someone talked about the soldier administering morphine to a dying child. Who can forget the soldiers who defended the Bagdhad orphanage during the early looting period? Not everything is so dramatic. The kid who was killed... he was building roads. He was making things better. I have a whole new appreciation for highways now. We take highways for granted.
Although this site doesn't accept BBC links, the fact is the gruesome report of tortured prisoners found in the basement of the Interior Ministry reported it was American troops who found them. The death squads and the "Salvador Option" are an insult to the men and women who are decent. They sully our reputation and mock the values people are dying to defend. I feel obliged to honor their sacrifice and defend our values by having the courage to ask direct questions, expect honest answers, and demand accountability from policymakers.
Finally, I am not looking for some cheap way to use this situation to voice my opposition to invading Iraq before we finished in Afghanistan. There are plenty of other things I can point to that more directly support that argument. I am not interested in arguing that here. All I will say is that before we went in a woman who grew up in a military family, and married into a military family said it best in her letter to the editor:
"I am not haunted by the fear that my brother will be sent to war. I believe there are beliefs and causes worth taking risks for, worth fighting and dying for. Rather, I am haunted by the fear that he will be sent to war thoughtlessly, carelessly."
-- Cara Cannon Byington (Jan. 15, 2003)
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 14, 2005 08:30 AM (wsdWU)
They are not turning a blind eye to one side's atrocities. They reject ALL violence. Tom Fox left a blog http://waitinginthelight.blogspot.com where he discusses these matters in detail. His first entry makes it clear that he is motivated in part by the quote from Jesus found in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas: "Don't lie and don't do what you hate because all things are revealed under heaven."
He specifically talks about how confronting soldiers and kidnappers will require him to move beyond anger and fear. That is very hard to do. But it is noble. It is honest. It is important. It is the way out of this mess. Fox and Kember are not kids. They are seasoned men who have struggled against violence for decades. They do that out of a compassionate expression of their faith. It may be hard for you to believe they love their fellow country men as much as the people they seek to help. You have to accept that on faith.
I agree with you that ordinary people around the world are speaking out against terrorism because they simply want to live their lives. I also agree with you that media coverage of the spectacular has routinely crowded out the voices of reason. It enrages me that zealots on all sides routinely betray the aspirations of the people they claim to defend. I carry no brief for terrorists. I don't believe Hamas, Hezbollah, or Islamic Jihad love Palestinians any more than Saddam Hussein did. Anyone who uses children as cannon fodder is wicked. There is no other way to view that.
What sets men like Fox, Loney, Sooden, and Kember apart from most people is they hold the captives and captors in their prayers. They struggle to find that place beyond anger and fear. When I think of King Hussein's eulogy for Yitzhak Rabin, I think that is what he was talking about when he spoke of "the camp of peace" when he addressed his comments to "those who live in darkness who are the enemies of life" and said "this is where we stand. This is our camp. May God bless you with the realization that you must join it and we pray that He will, but otherwise we are not ashamed, nor are we afraid, nor are we anything but determined to fulfill the legacy for which my friend fell."
I remember when he gave that eulogy how the words tumbled out of him with a force I could only describe as a wind that came through time. It wasn't until later that I learned he was a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhhamed.
Before the war Mike Kelly called the people opposing it "Liars, Frauds, and Hypocrites". He mellowed a bit when it was pointed out that he was maligning many honest people of faith. He declared they were "useful idiots" dancing to the Worker's World Party's A.N.S.W.E.R. When it was pointed out that many of the mothers marching on the Mall were motivated more by Mark and Luke than Marx and Lenin, he modified his tone. He spoke about the horrors he witnessed with his own eyes in Kuwait and the need to confront evil.
When the war came, he didn't sit behind a desk in Boston and write testosterone-laden cant. He went to Iraq. He didn't go because he wanted a thrill ride as an "embedded journalist" doing victory laps like Ollie North. He went because he felt it was important to witness and report honestly on the war he truly believed needed to be fought.
He died too young and we are the poorer for it. But he left us a gift. The final question in the final paragraph of the final column for the "Atlantic," published after his death, said it all. It is a question worth pondering. It is a question that will haunt the men who took us to war from now until the end of history.
"The question is whether the employment of this unfathomable power will be largely for good, leading to the liberation of a tyrannized people and the spread of freedom, or largely for bad, leading to imperialism and colonialism,with a consequent corruption of America's own values and freedoms."
- Mike Kelly , "What Now?", The Atlantic Monthly , May 2003
With that gift comes an obligation to write that future history mindful of the legacy we were given so we may leave a legacy worthy of those who will follow.
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 14, 2005 09:05 AM (wsdWU)
Posted by: Howie at December 14, 2005 10:13 AM (D3+20)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 14, 2005 10:34 AM (rUyw4)
The most revered Hashemite line then passed through Hassan, son of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima and her husband Ali, the fourth caliph. Hassan was the last of this line to hold the disputed claim to the caliphate, but his progeny eventually established themselves as hereditary emirs of Mecca, the role continuing under Ottoman rule.
The last of the line to rule as emir of Mecca and King of Hijaz along the Red Sea was Hussain bin Ali. Ibn Saudi, the founder of Saudi Arabia, conquered the Hijaz in 1924 and deposed Hussein, thus ending Hashemite rule of the region and the holy places of Islam.
The new Saudi dynasty, supported by the Wahhabi Muslim sect, proclaimed itself Guardians of the Shrines of Islam
Hussein’s dispossessed sons, Abdullah and Faisal, were later placed on the newly-created thrones of Amman and Baghdad, respectively. The Hashemite line survived in Jordan but not in Baghdad. Faisal was assassinated on July 14, 1958 in a military coup that soon led to the rise of Saddam Hussein at the head of the Baath regime.
In 1951, Abdullah was murdered by a Muslim zealot at the door of al Aqsa mosque on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount. Two years later, his grandson Hussein succeeded to the Jordanian throne as a boy king. He reigned until his death in 1999, when he was succeeded by his eldest son Abdullah II.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=921
At the time of his passing on February 7, 1999, His Majesty was the longest serving executive head of state in the world. Of great significance to Muslims throughout the world, the late King Hussein was also the forty-second generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad.
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/biography.html
His Majesty King Abdullah II is the 43rd generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad.
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/king_abdullah2.html
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 14, 2005 10:57 AM (wsdWU)
I stand by my assessment. Their actions belie what they say. I find them to be misled souls. I don't believe they're evil. I believe they truly think that what they do is just and correct. I think they're wrong. That's all.
Posted by: Oyster at December 14, 2005 03:22 PM (YudAC)
Posted by: Jester at December 14, 2005 04:35 PM (wBDaS)
If they're killed how would this play out to a western audience?
Why do people insist on believing that the jidhadists are concerned with western audiences for anything except shock and fear factor?
How would this play out to an arab/islamist street audience - and the jidhadists themselves? That's the real question.
Posted by: hondo at December 14, 2005 05:03 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 14, 2005 09:35 PM (b335s)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 14, 2005 11:51 PM (0yYS2)
But ... point taken, sir.
Posted by: Oyster at December 15, 2005 06:05 AM (YudAC)
They are getting smarter about what they post and where. They have been caught too many times. I'm having jihad troll withdrawls. That has got to be teh funnest part of Jawa. They come and post and we put em up on the front page or take em down. Finally they realize posting here is not so bright. Darn. But really the commentators and writers here deserve a big old pat on the back. We have trolled many into giving themselves away.
First off, it's a little on the juvenile side to deride someone as a troll when you can't address any of the comments in a substantive way. That's just lazy.
Second, I realize this is your private little playground and First Amendment issues don't apply. That's why I make my points respectfully and without invective.
Third, and this is the most important for you in particular. The reason I stumbled across this corner of the net was you were claiming to have confirmation about the likely identity of the kidnappers. Instead, you have taken the intellectually untenable position of saying:
a) Rita Katz plagiarized your work
and
b) Rita Katz confirms your finding
Plagiarism and confirmation are not synonyms.
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 15, 2005 08:24 AM (wsdWU)
Personally when some jihadist moron posts stuff like.
"Bush must die", "F*uck all Christians", F*uck the Virgin Mary" Death to this that and the other I'll call em a jihadist troll all I want.
Hey you guys it's a news flash. Howie is a bit juvenile and enjoys blog games with Jihadist trolls and loves to watch and catch the little bastards. It's just like fishin don't tell me you don't like fishin.
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 08:36 AM (D3+20)
NEWSFLASH: There's a reason they call it fishing instead of catching.
Speaking of clarification.... care to distinquish your claim of confirmation from plaigerism, or did you get caught with your pants down?
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 15, 2005 08:47 AM (wsdWU)
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 09:00 AM (D3+20)
You know I can fix any link that does not suck.
I went back to review it and apparently the whole diatribe about the plagiarism has been snipped from this thread.
So correct me if I'm wrong: You in charge of this site or not? You exercise editorial discretion or not?
Regardless of who answers it, the question is still out there based on material originally provided by this thread: Did SITE "confirm" or "plagiarize" the evidence cited? Pick one. It can't be both.
Posted by: 8ackground N015e at December 15, 2005 09:19 AM (wsdWU)
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 09:29 AM (D3+20)
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 10:22 AM (D3+20)
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 02:12 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: CTT at December 15, 2005 06:54 PM (ZTXJH)
did you hear the latest "chatter" about the peaceworkers and what they are saying "to do" with them?
i won't post it here as i do not want to violate any rules or cause any trouble, but i may post it at mine later on, waiting for some confirmations.
Posted by: CTT at December 15, 2005 07:01 PM (ZTXJH)
Islamic Army in Iraq Link to Peace Activist Hostages Confirmed
The Jawa Report was the first media outlet to report that there was a possible connection between the Islamic Army in Iraq and the Swords of Righteousness Brigade, the group responsible for kidnapping four Western peace activists in Iraq, in a November 29th posting. In fact, what is said by the director of the SITE Institute in this Canadian National Post article comes awfully close to plagiarism. [emphasis added]
Hence my question: Did SITE confirm the finding independently or did they parrot it?
You can appreciate how those are qualitatively different. One increases credibility and the other makes you look like an echo chamber.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at December 15, 2005 07:43 PM (wsdWU)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 16, 2005 05:30 AM (kkjRj)
But, thanks for playing.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 16, 2005 05:02 PM (JQjhA)
You are awfully close to being an echo chamber.... or you are awfully close to being full of crap.... or awfully close to both.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Posted by: 8ackgr0und N015e at December 17, 2005 10:18 AM (wsdWU)
December 07, 2005

A new video released by terrorists on an Islamic website today shows two of the four peace activists held hostage in Iraq in a scripted message asking for U.S. and U.K. troops to withdraw from Iraq. In the video, British hostage Norman Kember and American hostage Thomas Fox urge U.S. and U.K. withdrawal from Iraq several times, sometimes repeating themselves word for word.
Canadian hostages James Loney and Harmeet Singh Sooden are not seen on the video.
The Jawa Report has obtained a copy of the video (hat tip Tribeca). A transcript of the video and images from it are posted below. The video is being hosted by Laura Mansfield here in Real format and by Ogrish here (note: Ogrish's site has been revamped so that it is now safe for work) in .wmv format.
Although the group claiming to hold Kember calls itself 'The Swords of Truth Brigade', the website is linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq, the same group which has threatened to murder American civilian Ronald Schulz.
The hostages are seen blindfolded and in heavy chains. Like many other hostage videos, they are made to wear the orange jumpsuits reminiscent of Abu Ghraib. The video shows the hostages repeating their lines, sometimes in more than one take and at the direction of a voice heard offscreen.
Here is a transcript from the video:
American hostage Thomas Fox:A statement accompanying the video said the following (translated by Laura Mansfield):I'd like to offer my pleas to the people of America, not to the government of America--a plea for my release from captivity and also a plea for a release from captivity of all the people of Iraq. We are all suffering from the same fate, and that is the occupation of the American troops and the British troops which have brought me to this condition and has brought the Iraqi people to the condition they are in. So I would ask the people of America to do what they can to free us all from this captivity.
American hostage Thomas Fox in a second take:
We plea for my release from captivity and also a plea for the people of Iraq for the release from their captivity of the occupation of the American and British soldiers. We are all suffering the same fate, and the only way that we can all be free is for the American and British soldiers to leave Iraq as soon as possible.
British hostage Norman Kember:
I'm a Christian Peacemaker. I'm a friend of Iraq. I have been opposed to this war, Mr. Blair's war, since the very beginning. I ask of him now, and the British government, to do all that they can to work for my release and the release of the Iraqi people from oppression.
(Directed to say more from voice offscreen)
I have been opposed to the war, the British troops in Iraq, from the very beginning and I ask Mr. Blair, the British government, and the British people, to work both for my release and for the release of the Iraqi people from oppression.
(pans to two hostages, Norman Kember and Thomas Fox side by side, sounds of horn honking outside--end)
In response to the statements of the British Foreign SecretaryThis is by far the most scripted hostage video we have seen to date. It's resemblence to the Giuliana Sgrena video is uncanny. I'm just surprised we did not see the hostages forced to cry.Praise be to Allah the Lord of the World, and prayers and peace to the Honest Prophet, and to his Family and his Companions:
And then:
So that all the world knows that we are standing by our legitimate demands and that we have heard the statements of the British Foreign Secretary, and so that we prove to the world that they are not serious in what they say, and so that we can show the liar who lies to the world, we extend the deadline for two more days to that the world can see the difference between the truthful ones and the liars.
The Sword of Righteousness Brigades
What is equally disturbing is the fact that the hostages probably believe every word they say. The video was every bit as predictable in it's content as it was disturbing.
UPDATE: I've been asked how to interpret the video. The images on the video are disturbing. Orange jumpsuits are often used by terrorist organizations in beheading and other snuff videos they produce. The shackles are also disturbing in that they are there to server as a symbol of humiliation.
The blindfolds are also very disturbing. If you remember the Giuliana Sgrena videos, she looked right into the camera as she cried.
So, the visuals tell the story that these hostages lives are indeed in danger.
However, what is being said is very different than what one would expect if the terrorists really were serious with their threats. Usually the hostages plea for their lives, but these are only told to plea for their release.
Speculating that their lives are not really in danger, though, is a luxery pundits have and that intelligence officials do not have. They must, out of necessity, treat the hostages as if their lives were immediately in danger because to assume otherwise, and be wrong, is too risky.
More images below. more...
Posted by: Rusty at
02:18 PM
| Comments (57)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1111 words, total size 8 kb.
Posted by: Filthy at December 07, 2005 02:26 PM (5ceWd)
funny, I could of swore that he jumped aboard a plane, with his bible and fellow peaceniks to Iraq, who knew that America, and British troops got him into that condition?
Posted by: dave at December 07, 2005 02:37 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Jill at December 07, 2005 02:37 PM (pbum3)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 07, 2005 02:55 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 07, 2005 03:30 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: George Ramos at December 07, 2005 03:57 PM (Zm6ZW)
Posted by: Jester at December 07, 2005 03:57 PM (wBDaS)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 07, 2005 04:03 PM (0yYS2)
I wonder if any of their supporters have ever wondered why is it that these thugs claiming to be for truth and justice are always masked while making their cowardly threats on camera.
Why is it that these brave heroes of resistance have to tie up hostages and then hold a knife to their throats.
Posted by: MathewK at December 07, 2005 04:09 PM (pVHqF)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 07, 2005 04:15 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 07, 2005 04:25 PM (JQjhA)
they're morons and we like to make fun of them, but obviously they don't deserve a hideous death by decapitation. (feathering and tarring them would have done just fine). You'll find that if worse comes to worse the mood around here will be somewhat dampened and even sedate. Nobody will be laughing then.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 07, 2005 04:26 PM (8e/V4)
Shouldn't be much longer until they are released with a long list of demands and telling the world how nice their captors were.
Could be wrong. Time will tell.
Posted by: Luke at December 07, 2005 04:45 PM (m305Y)
Posted by: THEWATCHER at December 07, 2005 04:55 PM (OLe1c)
Then again, that's assuming that the terrorists know how to program their camcorders...............
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 07, 2005 04:58 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: THEWATCHER at December 07, 2005 05:02 PM (OLe1c)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 07, 2005 05:04 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: THEWATCHER at December 07, 2005 05:07 PM (OLe1c)
Posted by: George Ramos at December 07, 2005 05:10 PM (Zm6ZW)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 07, 2005 05:12 PM (JQjhA)
o They went to Iraq to interfere with the operations of allied forces, including Iraqi police.
o They're associated with a group that also runs interference for terrorists in Israel.
o Like Rusty said, they're saying what they believe.
o Like Szgrena, they're hanging out with the people they agree with.
o Any rescue attempt will put the lives of allied forces in jeopardy, solely so these creeps could get their 15 minutes.
Their deaths will be as tragic as the deaths of any other collaborators.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at December 07, 2005 05:15 PM (Gn9tM)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 07, 2005 05:43 PM (0yYS2)
But I'm at least halfway in the camp that thinks this may be a setup; too many similarities to the Sgrena setup...er...incident.
Why blindfolds all of a sudden?
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 07, 2005 08:22 PM (RHG+K)
Posted by: RepJ at December 07, 2005 11:13 PM (6mUkl)
I spoke today with a friend of Norman Kember's who has verified that the statement he delivered is in his typical idiom and is in keeping with statements he has made consistently over the past number of years. In other words, his statement and that of Mr. Fox were likely given willingly and without significant prompting or duress on the part of the kidnappers. That said, their treatment does appear to have worsened and the appearance of chains, blindfolds, and orange jumpsuits does not bode well.
As an organization, CPT has generally taken the stance that the American occupation of Iraq is a dangerously destabilizing force within the region and is one of the 'root sources' of the current violence. That's not to say that an American pullout would result in some sort of immediate and magical harmony but rather that the people of Iraq already have the means of resolving their own disputes and will be able to do so more peacefully and effectively without the duress and violence inherent in foreign occupation. They will still require the support of the international community to do so but a contingent of bobby officers under Iraqi supervision and invitation will go further than an equivalent contingent of uninvited marines.
As for these hostages, the 48-hour extension to the deadline is a very good sign and is hopefully indicative of a softening of the kidnappers' previously hardline stance. Most importantly, it seems to indicate a desire, however tentative, for some form of dialog. Their reference to "the statements of the British Foreign Minister" is a reassuring confirmation that they are hearing some of the press and media reports and are presumably aware of the widespread calls for the hostages' release. By its nature, hostage-taking is an act of brinksmanship and statements released by either side often involve a significant amount of posturing. The lives of these four men, especially the American & Briton, are still very much at risk but there does appear to be some reason to hold out hope for their safe release.
My own personal suspicion is that the hostage-takers are considering the release of the Canadian hostages but will continue to hold the American and Briton as bargaining chips. If that is the case, I suspect they will start with the release of Mr. Sooden on Saturday or shortly thereafter. Given the reputation of Mr. Loney, I wouldn't put it past him to resist an offered release until such time that Mr. Fox and Mr. Kember are also freed. All of that is simply supposition on my part, however, and I suspect this story will take a few more unexpected turns before we hear the end of it. Hopefully those turns will be for the better rather than for the worse.
Posted by: Rob at December 07, 2005 11:33 PM (Wl7Nx)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 08, 2005 01:18 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Oyster at December 08, 2005 06:27 AM (YudAC)
You will have to excuse me because I am not very knowledgeable about these things. What I am wonderig is, why do you suppose that the pleas from radicals and respected Muslims for the CPTers' release have seemed to have fallen on deaf ears?
True, the kidnappers have extended the deadline, but they must know that their demands are unreasonable and will never be met. What do you suspect their real motive is and why do you think they haven't listened to revered Muslims?
I do not believe that this is a set-up, so please tell me thoughts that you have about all of this that do not include the set-up theory...
Do you think that they may be just trying to save face now?
Thanks a lot.
Posted by: Jill at December 08, 2005 08:54 AM (pbum3)
As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous. Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends. It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release. CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom. To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension. The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release.
Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part. It's just not the way they operate. I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears. If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release. As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing. This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that. According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found. Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free.
Posted by: Rob at December 08, 2005 10:04 AM (Wl7Nx)
That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian.
These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with.
I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience.
Posted by: Political Penguin at December 08, 2005 10:53 AM (lDGts)
"Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.
Wherein he said: "That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian."
Yeah that's great, except that I'm not NeoConservative (whatever the hell that means; the people over at Stormfront accused me of being one, as well as a Jew, I guess the terms are synonymous), and I haven't been a Christian of any flavor in years, but rather I'm a pretty hardcore atheist (orthodox), and don't care one damn for the mixing of church and state. Sorry ol' Penguie, but you choked on that one.
"These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with."
Yet I'm in no danger of getting my head chopped off, since it was they, and not I, who walked into this mess, fully knowing the consequences of their actions. Tough break, but oh well, they're all big boys, and should know better.
"I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience."
Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them. Your comments betray you as nothing more than a simpering, whining, snivelling, bedwetting punkass liberal, and you should just STFU and leave the important stuff to the responsible adults. Buh-bye now.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 08, 2005 11:27 AM (0yYS2)
screw them
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16
and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right.
Posted by: jummy at December 08, 2005 11:45 AM (Z81HX)
"As an organization, CPT has realistic and reasonable objectives within Iraq..."
Yeah, it's called America loses.
"...and a clearly defined methodology for achieving them."
That part's called giving aid and comfort to the enemy".
"That's more than can be said about the US military in this particular conflict."
You goddamn stupid liberal fuck, you don't fucking deserve to breathe the same air as our soldiers. Our military has liberated those people from the most murderous tyrant of the last fifty years, with more than 2000 making the ultimate sacrifice, and thousands more maimed for life, yet you want only for the terrorists to win, so fuck you and I hope you die soon and in great pain you goddamn fucking liberal traitor piece of shit moron.
"As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous."
No, what was rediculous was their being there in the first place.
"Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends."
And when your friends are the enemies of your country, You become a traitor, and you lose all credibility with your countrymen, though you may gain some with your enemies, though not necessarily enough to prevent them from killing you anyway. Oops on them!
"It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release."
Yeah they've got some relationships all right, they're good dhimmis, and valuable for terrorist propaganda purposes, so even CAIR is calling for their release, a new thing.
"CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom."
Good then, so you'll agree that I'm right in not losing sleep over them? They knew what they were getting into, so why mess up their plans? It's obvious they have a martyr complex, so I say give 'em what they want. Good and hard.
"To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension."
Lots of calls eh? Funny, we're not hearing much about them. Maybe you're confusing disinterested silence with concern.
"The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release."
Frankly, they shouldn't care that much, because they've got schools and hospitals to guard from your "freedom fighters". Besides, they don't want our help, right?
"Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part."
Did you get that news from the antenna on your tinfoil hat?
"It's just not the way they operate."
Heh. It is now. It seems they weren't fully apprised of the plans by their news friends, or maybe they were, either way, not really our concern what happens to them, especially since they don't want us to help them.
"I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears."
Not deaf, just indifferent.
"If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release."
Or they realize their bluff has been called, perhaps?
"As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing."
Which appeals to small-minded terrorist lovers to no end.
"This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that."
So we should give them what they want to keep them from being embarrassed? Riiiiiiight.
"According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found."
Yeah that'll work with people who chop off heads and send car bombs into elementary schools. Idiot. How about an older classic conflict resolution theory? Yeah, this one states that you find the sons of bitches and kill them and everyone who is associated with them. See, that route works better with savages like islamofascists, who only understand crushing force, and see anything else as weakness.
"Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free."
With high-fives all around for a successfully executed propaganda operation.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 08, 2005 12:15 PM (0yYS2)
I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life.
I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues.
Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions?
Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one.
Posted by: jill at December 08, 2005 12:30 PM (pbum3)
Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them.
So, since our very presence over there is "enabling" the insurgency, you don't waste too much time thinking about it?
I said your response was typical of the NeoConservative "Christian" -- I never actually accused you of being Christian. The description is an oxymoron.
Besides, you don't have to be coy, you know exactly what the "New Conservatism" is all about, and it has very little to do with true Conservatism.
screw them
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16
and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right.
Entitled? I can judge whomever I please. I see you have no problem judging people. The difference is, I don't celebrate or wish for the death of those I disagree with.
I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life.
I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues.
Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions?
Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one.
Ah, finally, a sane voice.
Posted by: Political Penguin at December 08, 2005 01:08 PM (lDGts)
Posted by: Jester at December 08, 2005 01:17 PM (wBDaS)
You say "Try interacting with a few Muslims or observe them amongst our society and you will soon start to hate them"
- That is exactly the same type of black and white thinking I was referring to in the previous post. I have met some Muslims and the ones that I met are beautiful people.
And then you proceed to say "If people had stopped Hitler earlier many more lives would have been saved"
Of course, I agee with you. But don't you see that your thinking advocates the same hatred toward the Muslims in our society like he did toward the Jews? (I am not saying that you are like Hitler, don't get me wrong, I am just pointing out that your thinking seems similar and please correct me if I am mistaken).
I don't think that mass labelling has ever solved problems or contributed to humanity as a whole. Why do we always try to make ourselves separate from each other?
I am not saying that we shouldn't protect our values (freedom, etc.), though I am starting to wonder if some vices (hate, stereotyping, self-righteousness)have become an overriding mantra that is destroying us from the inside.
I am only trying to create dialogue, and to understand where people are coming from...I am not writing to insult anyone, I just want to understand.
Posted by: Jill at December 08, 2005 02:14 PM (pbum3)
I live in a community with a mosque, AND a synagogue right down the street. Around the corner from that, there is a Catholic church. I am surrounded by people of many different faiths and nationalities and we all get along quite well.
Your hate stems from feeling insecure with yourself, not from what another person believes or acts. Hate is irrational fear.
Posted by: Political Penguin at December 08, 2005 02:21 PM (lDGts)
Second, this is on the up and up and these peace-niks will have their heads chopped off. This is a very acceptible end for me.
As long as we don't give them any money its a win, win situation.
Posted by: RA at December 08, 2005 02:24 PM (QvWcl)
I used to know tons of muslims in college and they were excellent friends to me. Every single muslim I've ever met I liked.
I do have one story that in hindsight is a bit troubling though. The muslims I knew were all elite rich types back home in Pakistan, palestine and the Gulf states. Generally, they were religiously devout, but of the "moderate" variety if you get my meaning. They partied like the rest of us, smoked cigarettes, and a bit of weed too, but no alcohol because that is forbidden in the Koran. Swell guys all of them.
Then Salman Rushdie wrote his book and the ayatollahs sentenced him to death. As a good freedom of speech type of Liberal I was back then, I was outraged. But when all of my muslim buddies came out in favor of the fatwa, I was shocked. I couldn't believe the things these so-called moderates were saying about Rushdie and how he deserved death for disrespecting the prophet. What a transformation. I argued with them to no avail. It was as if someone had thrown water on a mogwai and they turned into gremlins.
I was naive back then, and now I understand that even moderate muslims don't think like us. That doesn't mean they're unpleasant evil people. And it doesn't mean we can't coexist. But it has to be under our rules, not theirs. They don't think like us. Get that into your thick skulls, you naive Libs.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 03:56 PM (8e/V4)
Uh... It looks like I touched a nerve. Sorry for getting you all riled up but please don't expect me to react in kind.
As for an American withdrawal being perceived as a 'loss' situation, it once again comes down to shifting the parameters of the debate. The US, like the kidnappers of these four men, is engaged in a very serious game of brinksmanship and bravado. The solution is to find an exit strategy that is acceptable to all sides and does not cause anyone, the US included, to lose face. I don't know what that exit strategy is but you bet your ass I'm looking for it.
As for me not deserving to breathe the same air as the US soldiers in Iraq, let me state once and for all that, despite being a pacifist, I am firmly in support of the individual US soldiers. They've been lied to, asked to perform unspeakable acts, and put in harm's way in an ill-conceived and provocative war that is distracting the world from the very real threat of terrorism. 2,000 American soldiers and an untold number of Iraqi civilians and combatants are dead and for what? To exact vengeance for a horrible act of terrorism in which Iraq played no part? To find weapons of mass destruction that were never there? To depose a violent dictator that America itself trained, supplied, and brought to power in the first place? To enable, empower, justify, and breed the very terrorist forces that we should be over in Afghanistan fighting? To further line the pockets of the already rich and powerful? To impose a new puppet government that isn't as interested in tugging at the strings? Don't bother calling me a traitor or an enemy of truth, justice, and the American Way because that's the last thing I'll ever be.
And don't blame me if you haven't been hearing the widespread calls for these hostages release. Sorry, but unless you have four CPT workers handcuffed in your basement, you're simply not the target audience. The fact remains that the parameters of the debate are shifting and there are people actively working to secure the release of these men in a peaceful manner while you jack off in vitriol and vinegar in front of your monitor. Thanks, I gotcha. Move on.
As for me calling the kidnappers or even Iraqi insurgents in general "freedom fighters," would you care to provide a quote? Sorry, there aren't any. I've been very consistent in saying that the violence on both sides has been detestable and counterproductive. I don't believe in freedom fighters. I believe in peace builders. I believe in non-violence. I believe in the integrity of innocent civilians who suffer at the wrong end of a soldier's gun or a terrorist's plane or an occupier's checkpoint or a suicide bomber's detonation. So quote me on that rather than putting lies in my mouth and claiming their mine.
As for the antennae on my tinfoil hat, maybe I should get one. Tell me, does it block out the hate? While I've never been a member of CPT, I've following their actions since 1993 and know a number of people who have worked with CPT both on the front lines and at the executive level. I also take the time to Google their website and inform myself about the debates at hand. While I don't speak as a representative of CPT I consider myself a uniquely informed citizen within the context of the audience here at Jawa. When I have reason to be confident of my statements, I say so. When I'm talking out of my ass, I'll let you know. Please return the favor.
You state that violence is the only language that 'islamofascists' understand. Sadly, it appears to be the only language you understand as well. If I ascribed to your philosophy, I'd already have a bullet with your name on it. Luckily for the both of us, I believe in alternate solutions.
As for your use and misuse of the term 'islamofascist,' I find it deeply insulting and so broadly applied in your posts that it's clear you wouldn't even recognize one if they were on your Christmas card mailing list. You appear to use the term to refer to the Islamic community at large, let alone anyone who simply happens to disagree with your point of view. Look: Hitler was a Christian, Stalin was an atheist, Bin Laden is a Muslim. Each of them were also exceptions and only a fool would construe the individual as somehow being indicative of the whole. The real enemies are extremism and hate and those two sad realities exist as subsets within all cultures, all religions, all philosphies, all nationalities. They exist on the homefront and they exist overseas. They hide in caves and they dress in suits. Sometimes they exist as pariahs and outcasts, sometimes we vote them into office. The darned thing is, in times like these, they also breed like bloody rabbits. Improbolus, you're a rabbit. Enjoy the view.
Posted by: Rob at December 08, 2005 04:08 PM (ANbsn)
Hitler was not a christian, you fucking moron. I'm so tired of disproving this Liberal meme over and over again. It's starting to get tiresome.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 04:37 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jester at December 08, 2005 05:08 PM (wBDaS)
And for the record, I'm a practicing Christian as well. I come from a Mennonite theological background and we've got our own skeletons in the closet - run a Google search for +Anabaptist +Munster if you ever feel like poking us in a sore spot.
------------Here goes nothing...
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.â€
( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )
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“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )
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“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )
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“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!
“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )
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“For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )
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“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )
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“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .
“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.
“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )
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“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )
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“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )
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“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. )
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“We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. […] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )
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“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )
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“Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. )
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“Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )
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“As far as this variety of ‘folkish’ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ‘Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.’â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. )
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“It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )
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“What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.â€
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. )
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“Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )
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“The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )
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“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.â€
( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )
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“
Posted by: Rob at December 08, 2005 06:46 PM (vPEvo)
Hitler DESPISED Christianity and Christians. He wasn't, however, above using Christian lingo to further his purposes. So, to quote Hitler means nothing. He, both publicly and privately, ridiculed Christianity as effete.
When Hitler says he is a 'Christian', he does not mean, "I believe that Jesus is the Messiah", he means, "I am an Aryan."
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 08, 2005 06:53 PM (JQjhA)
Trust me, I have traded quotes back and forth in this stupid argument about Hitler for years. I'm not impressed. Furthermore, I can think of few things more repulsive on this planet than someone claiming to be a "christian", as you claim to be, trying to prove Hitler was also a christian, and going to such lengths to do so. What is it with you sick fucks on the Left??? Seriously, WTF??? Why is self-loathing and guilt so built into your sick Lefty ideology???
Regarding Hitler claiming to be a "christian", this is what he meant:
"The Nazi party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity is NationalSocial ism...NationalSocial ism is the doing of God's will...God's will reveals itself in German blood...Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen [the Catholic bishop of Muenster] have tried to make it clear to me that Christianity consists of faith in Christ as the Son of God. That makes me laugh...No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed...True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real Christianity...The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation."
~~Dr. Hans Kerrl, Minister of Church Affairs, February 13, 1937
I've got dozens of these dude. Hitler's words have been twisted by the Left for decades, and so has the history of the Vatican. And you stupid Libidiot christians play along like self-loathing sheep to the slaughter. Just get away from my sight, you repulse me.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 08:46 PM (8e/V4)
~~Martin Bormann in a secret decree of the Party Chancellery signed by him and distributed to all Gauleiters 7 June 1941
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 08:50 PM (8e/V4)
~~Hans Kerrl, Reich Minister for Church Affairs, in a letter dated 6 September 1939
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 08:51 PM (8e/V4)
this is all news to you obviously, but The Vatican's dissavowal of Hitler in 1937 came in the form of The encyclical Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning anxiety") which was one of the strongest condemnations of a national regime that the Holy See had ever published. In fact, the Vatican took pains to ensure that Nazi officials could not prohibit its distribution. Unlike most encyclicals, which are written in Latin, Mit brennender Sorge was written in German. It was then smuggled into Germany, secretly distributed, and read at the Masses on Palm Sunday, March 14,1937. Mit brennender Sorge condemned not only the persecution of the Church in Germany but also the neopaganism of Nazi theories, the idolizing of the state, and the use of race and bloodlines to judge human value. It declared in part:
"Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah 11:15).
The encyclical concluded that "enemies of the Church who think that their time has come will see that their joy was premature." The Nazis confiscated all available copies of the encyclical, arrested printers who made copies, and seized -their presses. Those distributing the encyclical were arrested, payments due to the, Church from Germany under the concordat were reduced, and several priests were subjected to trials on trumped-up currency or momfity charges.
Shortly thereafter, Hitler was quoted in a Swiss newspaper as saying, "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified.' Pope Pius M was henceforth considered an enemy by the Nazis.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 08:54 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 08:55 PM (8e/V4)
I raise the issue only because there are posters within this thread, one little white rabbit in particular, who are throwing around blanket terms like 'islamofascist' and arguing that Islamism is somehow directly equivalent to terrorism and to anti-Americanism and to hate. This is patently and dangerously untrue. Like Christianity, atheism, and countless other faiths and philosophies, Islam is a stump with many branches. Some of those branches lean to the left and others to the right. Some are moderate and some are extremist. Some believe in violence and some believe in pacifism. If the branch offends you, cut it off (as the Pope thankfully did to Hitler and the leaders of Jordan and Saudi Arabia are now working towards with Bin Laden). But don't be a fool and burn the tree because the tree is still worth keeping. For myself, I may work to sever the branch that is President Bush but I refuse to give up on America as an ideal and I refuse to give up on the individual citizens and soldiers who call it home. Hell, I haven't even given up on the GOP for crying out loud.
Rusty, I apologize for dragging this thread woefully off-topic. Broaching the topic of Hitler is always inflammatory (as it should be) and I should have known better than to even go down that garden path. Suffice to say that we can all agree with the following statement: "Hitler was a horror of wretched proportions and Christianity and Nazism are in no way equivalent." Fair's fair?
Posted by: Rob at December 08, 2005 10:17 PM (Wl7Nx)
if muslims denounced Osama Bin Laden as vociferously as christians denounce Hitler, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, now would we. But they don't. So your Hitler analogy fails.
Posted by: dcb at December 08, 2005 10:42 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 08, 2005 10:57 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 09, 2005 08:47 AM (SHEau)
- You hurt my pride and I got angry.
- In my anger, I attacked you rather than your hate.
- In attacking you, I abandoned my original mandate of toning down the vitriol being leveled against these four hostages in Iraq and bringing a level of understanding and information regarding the work of CPT.
- In abandoning my original mandate, I allowed you to redefine the parameters of this debate according to your own agenda (despite my past successes in redefining the debate according to my own).
- When the debate shifted, my posts grew longer and more rambling, allowing you to pick at a single weakness to undermine the whole (I was done in by a single passing reference to Hitler buried within a 750 word post).
- When you picked at my weakness, I resorted to shock tactics (for the record, I couldn't care less what Hitler believed or didn't believe. I did a quick Google search for +Hitler +Christian and copy and pasted a convenient list of quotes without even reading them. Half of those quotes could be about Papa Smurf and Gargamel and I'd be none the wiser).
- In the end, I called you names and resorted to demeaning you as a rabbit. I caused you to lose face. I spoke up in violence and look at all the good it did me. If you had been the kidnapper and I had been the mediator, I would have just condemned these four men to a grisly fate they don't deserve. Hopefully, cooler heads than mine prevail.
Confession time: I'm not a regular on the Jawa Report and when these four men are either released or executed, I won't be back. I first came here looking for video footage to confirm that one of those four men was who I feared he was - an old friend of mine with whom I've shared many meals. He taught me a variant he invented to the board game RISK where you played with a deck of cards that represented weapons of mass destruction, acts of propaganda and unconventional warfare. We had great fun and I still play it to this day. Five points to those of you who can see the irony in two committed pacifists nuking the bejeebers out of each other in a game of global domination. I believe I may actually have been the one to introduce him to CPT so I feel partially responsible for the predicament he's in today.
There's very little that I can do right now to win my friend's freedom. But what I can do, and what I've tried very hard to do, is to bring some small measure of calm and mutual respect to an otherwise hostile corner of the blogosphere. For better or for worse, the Jawa Report has become a destination for those of us seeking breaking news and footage of our loved ones. All I want to do is ratchet down the hate until this situation has passed. I suspect there are readers here who know these men even better than I and who will suffer even more from any hate-filled words than I. So if you won't do it for me, at least do it for them.
Forgive my outbursts yesterday. What can I say - it was a rough day. =o(
Posted by: Rob at December 09, 2005 12:12 PM (ANbsn)
How anyone could be so moronic to think that Norman Kember and the other hostages "staged their own kidnapping". They are Christian pacifists. They don't have time for *anyone* with guns, whether they are from an army, terrorists or whatever. They go to Iraq and other war-zones to help the *civilian* population.
As for the kidnapping of Guiliana Segrena, I guess your media forgot to tell you something else, [along with forgetting to tell you about the thousands of US soldiers who maybe haven't *died* in Iraq, but have been seriously wounded, with limb loss, paralysis or serious psychological trauma].........that she had obtained proof positive of the US use of chemical weapons, white phospourous and newer versions of napalm-type incendiaries on *civilian* areas in Falluja.
I am proud of Norman Kember, because he believes in trying to help those whose lives, families and homes are destroyed by war enough to go to Iraq, even though he *knew* he was risking his own life.
He is also, unlike your President, telling the truth about the Iraq situation, and as we all know, truth hurts.
Posted by: wintermute at December 24, 2005 06:16 PM (dNvAF)
Posted by: gentry at January 09, 2006 10:45 PM (pjO6K)
December 05, 2005
You can watch the video here (hat tip: Shawn at Bareknucklepolitics, Ian at Political Teen, and Doubletap at Infovlad--all of whom e-mailed me)
Here is a transcript of the video, via Doubletap at Infovlad:
Thank you very much we are being treated well and we hope to be out of here soon.The peace activists seem much more reluctant than Giuliana Sgrena to pour out their emotions.Um We are being treated well we are both well all of us are well.
We are all being treated well we are sleeping ok um and um we would like to thank the people holding us for that and hopefully we will be home soon.
I ask Mr Blair to take British troops out of Iraq and leave the Iraqi people to come to their own decisions on their government.
As a representative of Christian Peace Maker Teams we feel that continued British and American occupation is not in the best interest of the Iraqi people.
We will be following this hostage crisis carefully.
Developing.......
Posted by: Rusty at
10:16 AM
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Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 05, 2005 10:52 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: thirdee at December 05, 2005 11:02 AM (kBsuN)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 05, 2005 11:12 AM (rUyw4)
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at December 05, 2005 11:30 AM (WOQ34)
"We are being treated well... yes... very well! Thanks to our kidnappers! Totally, man!"
I bet they just want to show the world how "nice and innocent" the terrorists are... and how eeeeeeeevil Bush and Blair are for attacking them.
Posted by: Ariya at December 05, 2005 11:59 AM (+sjRV)
CAIR protests kidnapping of collaborators
Has CAIR ever protested against the kidnapping of anyone else in Iraq? If so, please send me the links here and I will post them as updates. But this protest of the kidnapping of the collaborators is the first one I personally can recall ever seeing from them. From "Frenchman target of latest Iraq kidnapping," from AFP, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
Just a day earlier, one of the most prominent US Muslim organizations, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, became the latest group to demand the release of the four Western Christian peace activists kidnapped last week.
The two Canadians, one Briton and an American, are linked to the US and Canada-based Christian Peacemaker Teams opposed to the continued presence of US-led foreign troops in Iraq.
"Those who left the comfort of their homes to advocate for the rights of others that do not share their faith, ethnicity or language should be celebrated and honored by Muslims, not humiliated by being made captives or, God forbid, killed," said Parvez Ahmed, the organization's chairman.
"This is a universal human ideal and a cherished principle of Islam."
In other words, "They're on your side, you idiots. Let them go."
So, I'm not just a voice crying in the wilderness.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 05, 2005 12:01 PM (0yYS2)
Who wants to ask CAIR, seeing as that profile matches the U.S armed forces, if they want to condemn terrorism in Iraq now?
Posted by: dave at December 05, 2005 12:24 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 05, 2005 12:25 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: dave at December 05, 2005 12:42 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Howie at December 05, 2005 12:49 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: hondo at December 05, 2005 01:08 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 05, 2005 01:51 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Patti at December 05, 2005 02:35 PM (2hEo4)
And btw, you get plenty military who access your site.
Nice job GW!!!!!
Posted by: Capster at December 05, 2005 02:38 PM (JF5DO)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 05, 2005 05:51 PM (9Dlss)
Posted by: Bill at December 05, 2005 05:51 PM (snZLy)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 06, 2005 05:54 AM (VX7Tm)
Posted by: Jill at December 07, 2005 08:53 AM (pbum3)
December 02, 2005
UPDATE: Confirmed by MSM sources. We are working on obtaining the raw video.
According to Matt Drudge, Al Jazeera has broadcast a video which purportedly threatens the life of four Western peace activists in Iraq. The names of the four activists are American Thomas Fox--who is also a blogger, Canadians Harmeet Singh Sooden and James Loney, and British citizen Norman Kember. The Jawa Report was the first media outlet to reveal the names of the hostages.
Because of the many similarities between the kidnapping of anti-American journalist Guliana Sgrena, it has been widely speculated that the terror organization never planned to kill the hostages, but are using the four peace activists as tools to drum up antiwar sentiment. However, because the orignial hostage video was first released on a website (contrary to media reports that al Jazeera first released the video) that belonged to a known terrorist organization the threat may very well be real.
The Jawa Report will post images and links to the video as soon as they are available.
UPDATE: Ian at the Political Teen has the al Jazeera video and has it posted here as does Bareknucklepolitics. Both are of a CTV report, and the latter has audio. We are still working on getting the original video before it went through the al Jazeera editing process.
Al-Jazeera television broadcast a videotape Friday in which kidnappers of four Christian peace activists threatened to kill their hostages unless all prisoners in U.S. and Iraqi detention centers are released. The kidnappers gave the two governments until Dec. 8 to meet their demands, Al-Jazeera quoted a statement delivered with the tape as saying....Yes, very much like the Sgrena video indeed.All four appeared frightened.
The Canadians were shown eating from plates of what appeared to be Arabic sweets. In a second clip, the British and American hostages were shown to talking to the camera but no audio was transmitted.
The two were calling on the U.S. and British governments to withdraw from Iraq, Al-Jazeera reported, quoting a statement from the kidnappers, who earlier identified themselves as the Swords of Righteousness Brigade.
Developing....
More links at Pajama Media and in trackbacks below.
Please send tips to mypetjawa-at-gmail-dot-com and feel free to drop links to related stories in comments section.
Posted by: Rusty at
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That along with the fact they did not execute them in the time they held them. I'm not sure if it's my mind playing tricks but the execution of Eugene Armstrong and Jack Hensley wasn't very long after their capture.
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 03:26 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: jummy at December 02, 2005 03:33 PM (Z81HX)
Because certain groups such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has called for their release, I am still hopeful that it will happen. We shall see.
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 02, 2005 03:47 PM (rUyw4)
The insurgents and jihadists are not playing to the western
media or audience.
They a playing to a middle-eastern islamic audience.
Difference rules and values apply!
The CPT and others better realize that - in Iraq they ARE NOT SEEN as anti-american pacifists and allies - they are seen as WESTERN INFIDELS AND INVADERS! AND FEAR AND TERROR DOES WORK WITH SOME!
Fortunately (odd thing for me to say), very few of the left and groups similar to CPT are in Iraq. (they apparently got the memo). They are here doing their thing from the comfort and safety of Western democracies.
Oddly too - hondo is on duty with many to provide for their (and everyone's) safety. Think they will sent me a Christmas card and say thank you?
Not likely - but I'm cool with that.
Posted by: hondo at December 02, 2005 03:48 PM (Jvmry)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 02, 2005 03:53 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Graeme at December 02, 2005 04:04 PM (Pfcnn)
Posted by: hondo at December 02, 2005 04:22 PM (Jvmry)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 02, 2005 04:44 PM (rUyw4)
I have plans tonight and so won't be around much. If you find any interesting links regarding this case, please feel free to drop them in the comments section.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at December 02, 2005 04:47 PM (JQjhA)
p.s.tbn was forced to rehire him after e-mails etread tony blankleys book!!
Posted by: tom at December 02, 2005 05:40 PM (dV2NF)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 02, 2005 06:09 PM (Y5zcg)
Posted by: Rob at December 02, 2005 06:48 PM (vPEvo)
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 07:42 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 02, 2005 07:44 PM (OvTKg)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 02, 2005 08:20 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 09:02 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 02, 2005 10:50 PM (Y5zcg)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 03, 2005 12:30 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 04:01 AM (TiLnn)
"lawlessness"? It's called a war, an insurgency, terrorism, guerrilla war, etc.
These aren't common criminals stealing purses in case you haven't notice.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 03, 2005 10:27 AM (8e/V4)
The only people under U.S. control are the Iraqi Army, who were led by Special Forces in recent Anbar battles.
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 06:16 PM (VDGim)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 03, 2005 06:54 PM (8e/V4)
Agent Brown says that historically, America has defined troublesome places in terms of "triangles". Hence, the historic triangles in Korea and Vietnam. Two points would just be a line and four points gets too complicated because the shape is inherently unstable. It could shift and become a parallellogram to feared by all square bashers.
Agent Jones says that if three troublesome points cannot be found by America, America will create them, as trouble always comes in threes, like Airline crashes. Hence, the Axis of Evil lumped two arch-enemies, Iran and Iraq plus lunatic Kim Jong Il. By creating the bonds between the enemies, America gets to fight them all as if they were one big enemy.
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 07:54 PM (VDGim)
Posted by: virginsRoverrated at December 04, 2005 11:58 AM (o60re)
Posted by: greyrooster at December 05, 2005 06:27 PM (9Dlss)
December 01, 2005

Up to this point we have refrained from speculating that this hostage crisis could have been staged by the terror organization so that they could later release the hostages in a show of 'goodwill'. Our many readers and fellow bloggers have not been so restrained. However, in light of this new information...well, consider it a thought in the back of our collective heads which we just can't help thinking. In no way would this have to mean that the hostages were in on the hoax, only that the threat against their lives might not be real--especially if they were known by the terrorists to sympathize with their cause.
Why would terrorists do this? Well, look what happened during the Giuliana Sgrena crisis. Sgrena, who's sympathies were with the terrorists anyway, was more than happy to cry on cue and demand that Italy withdraw immediately from Iraq. The reaction from the Italian Left was overwhelming and the pressure mounted on the Burlesconi government to leave. Terrorists are not stupid. They choose tactics that they believe work. If it seemed to work once.....
If this is the case, then it is good news for the hostages as their eventual release is almost gauranteed. For the sake of the hostages, we hope this is so.
Guardian (hat tip Alicia):
Four Christian peace activists held hostage in Iraq were kidnapped at the same place where an Italian journalist was abducted, raising the possibility one group carried out both attacks, police said Thursday.Of course, the major hitch in this theory is that I first found the hostage video after a friend of mine pointed out that it was posted on a terrorist website.The style of the abduction also was similar: The activists were seized Saturday in the vicinity of a mosque near Baghdad University. A car blocked their car, gunmen got out, threw the driver and translator out and drove away with the four captives, security officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to talk to the media....
While in captivity, Sgrena also appeared in a video. She begged for her life and warned foreigners to leave the country.
Iraqi police Lt. Thaer Mahmoud said Thursday that the activists were kidnapped in the same place as Sgrena, whose release on March 4 touched off a tragic friendly fire incident that strained relations between Italy and the United States.
Posted by: Rusty at
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Posted by: Oyster at December 01, 2005 07:56 PM (YudAC)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 01, 2005 08:30 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 01, 2005 08:37 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Vinnie at December 01, 2005 09:04 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: Robert Crawford at December 01, 2005 09:30 PM (Gn9tM)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 01, 2005 09:43 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 01, 2005 11:02 PM (0yYS2)
As for the hostage-takers, perhaps this is the same group and, as Rusty suggests, perhaps this is an attempt on their part to claim deja vu all over again. That said, there's barely a street or square of Baghdad that hasn't seen a kidnapping at some point over the past three years. Most of the hostages are innocent Iraqi civilians who go unreported in the press, despite CPT's best efforts to the contrary. See a list of past CPT press releases below.
http://www.google.com/u/ChristianPeacemakerTeams?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&domains=cpt.org&q=%2Bkidnapping+%2BIraqi&btnG=Search&sitesearch=cpt.org
Posted by: Rob at December 01, 2005 11:48 PM (Wl7Nx)
What a stupid organization! do you have to have a below normal IQ to be accepted?
So they would prefer have their head sawed off with a Bowie knife until losing consciousness from blood loss, than have a SF team execute those that not only want to kill them, but also attack civilians with car bombs? they do what for civilians again? oh, yes catalog "american atrocities"
btw. can you show me documentation referring to the "innocence" of the Iraqi citizens you refer to:
Most of the hostages are innocent Iraqi civilians who go unreported in the press
perhaps just "iraqi civilians" would suffice.
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 12:04 AM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 02, 2005 06:06 AM (fLJDr)
Agent Jones calculates that it is hard to target the rebellion's 50-100 leaders because no one is leading it.
Agent Smith has no comment.
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 02, 2005 06:27 AM (fLJDr)
This summer, the Iraq Body Count project published an analysis of casualties in the Iraq War that must be admired for its meticulous documentation. This study reports 24,865 civilian deaths in the first two years of the Iraq War, an apparent ringing endorsement of the "Iraq in chaos" position. But a curious statistical anomaly jumps right off page one: over 81% of the civilian casualties are men. Even stranger, over 90% of civilian casualties are adults in a country with a disproportionate percentage of the population under 18 (44.5%). This contradicts a basic tenet of the civilian casualty argument, namely that we are describing collateral damage during a time of war. Collateral damage does not differentiate between male and female, between child and adult. A defective smart bomb falling in a marketplace, stray bullets ripping through bedroom walls, city warfare in Fallujah – all these activities should produce casualties that reflect the ratio of men to women or adults to children that prevail in Iraq as a whole. If the death of innocent civilians is at issue, then the gender/age data can be used to estimate the percentage of actual civilians killed. Below, the data for female and underage casualties provides the basis for determining a true, pure civilian "body count" figure of 7,976. More:
http://www.logictimes.com/civilian.htm
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 02, 2005 10:22 AM (8e/V4)
Counter-insurgency normally takes place by segregation of population, cutting supply lines, paid informants, sabotage, propaganda and bringing parties into the political arena.
The classic parts of counter-insurgency can be seen in Vietnam with the sabotaging of enemy ammunition in ammo dumps, and rice burns (cutting off the food supply) and ariel bombardments of the supply lines throughout Vietnam.
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 10:49 AM (CcXvt)
Just a thought.
Posted by: Oyster at December 02, 2005 11:38 AM (YudAC)
With the numbers given, that's 20,141 adult males, and 4,724 women and children killed in the first two years. I'm just guessing that the ratio of actual civilian adults-to-children killed is probably about 1:3, with men and women making up equal portions of the actual civilian adult death toll, and if that's close to accurate, that means that the adult male actual civilian casualty count would be one-sixth of the children, which comes to about 3,149, which is 524.
Subtract that number from the total of adult males killed, and you get 19,167, which, when considering all the battles fought, seems like a reasonable number of casualties, especially when compared to similar engagements wherein irregular forces facing US forces suffered losses of anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1. In summary, given the numbers, they've killed over 2000 of ours, and we've probably by now killed approximately 30,000 of theirs, a ratio of 15:1, which means we're winning, and will continue to do so, unless the traitorcrats and leftards are allowed to subvert this war like they did in Vietnam.
PS. At this ratio, given that there are one billion muslims in the world, and that about half are male, with a 15:1 loss ratio, if they were to launch a global jihad, we (the Western world) would only lose 33 million males by the time they had no more males left. In short, jihad is statistically guaranteed to destroy islam, as long as we have the will to fight.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 02, 2005 11:51 AM (0yYS2)
The guy is very smart. And handles hate mail adeptly. Thanks for the link.
Posted by: Oyster at December 02, 2005 11:55 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Oyster at December 02, 2005 12:00 PM (YudAC)
According to recent reports (http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20051202-093915-3471r), Donald Rumsfeld estimates that there are as many as 20,000 armed insurgents operating in Iraq with the support of perhaps another 200,000 non-combatant loyalists. By that estimate, over 99% of the Iraqi population would consist of innocent civilians.
Carlos, thanks for backing up your argument with some solid stats. Some of the gender discrepancy you describe could theoretically be the result of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy (i.e. they're not the result of stray bullets but bullets targeted very deliberately at adult males, many of whom end up being innocent victims). Also, given the firmly entrenched gender mores within Muslim society, I suspect Iraqi insurgents would be more likely to bully the male heads of houshold, business owners, etc. That said, I agree that the discrepancy could also stem from a potential bias on the part of the reporting organization as well as some successful localized propaganda efforts on the part of the insurgents. My guess is that it's some combination of the above factors.
Posted by: Rob at December 02, 2005 12:05 PM (vPEvo)
This is exactly the sort of thing that people seize upon as a basis for argument without any supporting data or empirical evidence and slip in generalities like "some" and the word "theory" so they can wiggle out when called on it. It's irresponsible.
Posted by: Oyster at December 02, 2005 12:37 PM (YudAC)
As a large portion of Iraq's male population were involved in the military, police or intelligence agencies and a large portion of these were displaced with the idiotic dismissal of Iraq's regular armed forces it is with great probability that these were involved in the insurgency.
Those people whom provided "safehouses" for terrorists / insurgents and were killed in strategical strikes of those locations for example, are counted as civilian deaths but are not "innocent" the large amounts of insurgents and terrorists involved in this war that are using civilian "cover" is providing a very skeewed civilian bodycount due to the inability to distinguish them from civilians unless they are indeed masked, or armed when the body is examined.
Posted by: dave at December 02, 2005 01:23 PM (CcXvt)
In any event, I believe the best hope for stopping islamofascism is not to kill its men, but to liberate its women and educate its children along Western lines from an early age, so as to avoid the culture shock that causes so many young men to take up jihad because of their inability to comprehend the modern world. Women are much easier to civilize than men, because they're naturally more civil in the first place, and tend to take to the trappings of civlization quicker than men do. This is why the most important war materiels being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan are not bombs and bullets, but books and school supplies, because the schoolchildren of today can be either jihadis or productive citizens tomorrow, and it's up to us to make them the latter, and not the former.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 02, 2005 02:11 PM (0yYS2)
Interesting info.. Another point to consider is that I believe they are also counting revenge and other crime related killings, under the theory that the US is responsible for the breakdown in order. Men are probably more likely to be involved in crime or even inter tribal disputes.
Posted by: anomdebus at December 02, 2005 02:57 PM (45u9E)
While I don't agree with your rather paternalistic notion that Iraqis are savages in need of civilization and Western-style enlightenment, I do agree with your assessment that bombs, bullets, and systemic injustice are precisely what creates a breeding ground for extremism. Books and school supplies, coupled with an environment of toleration and the underlying support for a productive and culturally rich society, really does sound like a more viable recipe for a stable, democratic, and peaceful Iraq.
It's precisely that kind of tolerant environment that CPT and its workers are seeking to foster, one person and one family at a time. Given the space and opportunity, free from all of the 'us vs. them' and 'good vs. evil' rhetoric being spewed by the current administration, I believe the US military could play a similarly positive role. They did an excellent job in Bosnia, for instance, and the forces in Afghanistan have also managed to be fairly constructive overall (Despite being a pacifist, I've generally been supportive of the war in Afghanistan - it's been well-handled and I feel that it's had a positive net effect, both for global security and the civilian population).
The war in Iraq, on the other hand, got off to a bad start with the whole 'Axis of Evil' discussion and the rather silly attempts to blame Saddam Hussein for the horrible but entirely unrelated tragedy of 9/11. Where the war in Afghanistan has weakened Al Qaeda and the threat of terrorism, the war in Iraq has managed to strengthen both. Where the war in Afghanistan has led to a functioning though fragile democracy that has improved women's rights and the situation of the average Afghani, the ill-conceived war in Iraq has led to nothing but chaos, quagmire, and disfunction.
And Oyster - I was agreeing with you that there may be some bias and propaganda in the stats you reported. You'd better take it where you can get it. ;o)
Posted by: Rob at December 02, 2005 03:37 PM (ANbsn)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 02, 2005 08:35 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 03, 2005 10:07 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: George Ramos at December 03, 2005 03:29 PM (Zm6ZW)
American forces are merely a distraction that is preventing the nationalist "insurgents" from impaling Zarqawi's head on a stake for Al Jazeera's cameras. American forces are now slowly aligning with Baathists and Badrists in Metro Baghdad to wipe out the "terrorists".
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 04, 2005 03:47 AM (VDGim)
Posted by: Rusty at
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I think that the quality of the beliefs must come into consideration. I find nothing admirable in Mohammed Atta or his accomplices. I find nothing admirable in the suicide bomber who attacks a group of children getting candy from American soldiers. In fact, I revile the memory of these murderous creatures.
Granted, Fox is not on a par with these troglodytes, but his beliefs are so naive and ill-founded that I can find nothing to admire there, either. And I revile him for putting more people at risk for indulging his juvenile fantasies.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 01, 2005 06:41 PM (RHG+K)
Posted by: Rusty at December 01, 2005 07:03 PM (JQjhA)
The difference is that Atta was willing to give up his life to kill innocent civilians who had done him no real harm. And he was willing to do it based on his beliefs.
This guy is, as far as we know, an innocent civilian who walked (yes, willingly) into the lion's den.
Misguided? Yes. Naive? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Possibly metally ill? Possibly.
But none of those criteria add up to committing an act of evil for which one would deserve to be beheaded.
And brother, the U.S. military has been putting it's ass on the line for over 200 years in support of someone's juvenile fantasies. That's what they do, that's their charter, that's the risk they themselves acknowledge they are willing to take.
And that is why we honor them so completely.
Posted by: Vinnie at December 01, 2005 07:24 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 01, 2005 07:27 PM (RHG+K)
Posted by: Rusty at December 01, 2005 07:41 PM (JQjhA)
I'm a little more specific. I don't admire his beliefs, his ideology, his mindset.
But I do have admiration for the courage it takes to walk into the snakepit unarmed for your cause.
Look at it this way. The Germans in WWI gave the Marines the nickname "Devil Dogs." They did that, despite polar opposite views, out of respect and admiration for the Corps' fighting ability.
That's the point of view I'm looking at Rusty's statement from.
Of course, unlike the hard Left, I am truly open-minded. If evidence comes to light that my point of view is unfounded, or misquided itself, my opinion will certainly change.
Posted by: Vinnie at December 01, 2005 07:49 PM (Kr6/f)
This is how we debate. You notice no name calling, no vitriol, no hate, no calls for "shut him up!"
Compare this to what ya'll have done to Zell Miller and Joe Liebermann.
thatisall.
Posted by: Vinnie at December 01, 2005 07:54 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: Oyster at December 01, 2005 07:59 PM (YudAC)
Posted by: Rob at December 01, 2005 11:50 PM (Wl7Nx)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 02, 2005 01:06 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 09:55 PM (VDGim)
Hi
Im new to this blog so ummm ill refrain from shouting and hurling abuse to the sheer naivate of your arguments.
Im assuming you guys are from the US considering the earlier comment of upholding and respecting your marines completely....woohooo- there is a naive assertion. Someone who willingly goes into battle against another country and upholdes its own nations regime at the expense of people who have a raw material - in this case OIL which you dont have anymore- HAHAHAHA! ooops and your in three times more debt compared with the whole of Africa, i guess desperation calls and its time to go in and screw over a very 'wrong' dictatorship which the US and Britain promoted. I believe its wrong terrorists do what they do and im afraid thats why I uphold Bush and Blair responsible for the slaying of thousands of Iraqs through bombing cluster bombing and the deadly sanctions imposed in the country since the earlier 1990s by Daddy Bush. Your man Tom is a good guy and prayers indeed him and the other 3 hostages do not die tomorrow. Naive - yes i agree howevere inherently good absolutely. Marines- naive- yes. They believe they are in there to do a good job and 'help' the Iraq people. They do not belong in the country and are there to do no good except rob the Iraq people of the rescource they own- we dont. So Puppet people back to your idiot boxes and American gladiators- oh and have Macdonals and Coke with that too will y'all????! For you have bought into whats the biggest lie of the 21st century- who indeed would wanna be an 'american idiot'.
Respect to Tom and more like Him- walking into the lions den indeed not the best move but sort OUR foreign policy out and you wont have as many dens.
Ps aint ya prould of Guantanamo???
Posted by: jude at December 09, 2005 05:31 PM (P7wJZ)
His blog, Waiting in the Light, was last updated on November 9th. In his last entry, Tom Fox, now held by Sunni insurgents with links to those who fought the U.S. in Fallujah, decries the U.S. led assault on that city. Despite the fact that Fallujah was run by a form of strict Islamic law before the U.S. liberated that city--in which civilians were murdered for appearing too 'Western'-- Fox's entry decries the U.S. occupation with no words of criticism of the 'resistance' that fought his fellow countrymen.
Further, Fox seems to believe a Muslim cleric's version of the Fallujah narrative over those of the Marines and soldiers that liberated that city. Perhaps Fox was unaware that the cleric was possibly a member of the Shura council which ran Fallujah and which meted out death sentences to prostitutes, collaborated and gave refuge to al Qaeda linked terrorists (possibly some of the same terrorists holding Fox hostage now), and which saw even the possession of Western media a sign of apostasy?
It is tragic irony that those now holding Fox hostage are those that he found difficult to criticize, and that the U.S. Marines and soldiers which he found so easy to fault are his best bet on surviving his ordeal alive.
His entries are a mix of personal reflection and first-hand reporting from Iraq. His blog also reveals that Fox was a truly committed pacifist, willing to die rather than do violence to others. There is much to be admired in a man willing to die for his beliefs.
However, it remains unclear why it is that Western pacifists seem so eager to take on the U.S. and Israel and so willing to overlook the violence and aggression of Jihadis and Palestinians? If all violence is equally bad, then why the focus on Western violence and not on those who are the enemy of the West?
Unless of course the pacifist really doesn't believe his tactics would work in totalitarian states or among violent religious fanatics? Which, I think, is quite revealing.
Regardless of his naivite and poor judgement, we pray for his and the other hostages release and that those responsible will meet a swift and deadly justice. Fox is an innocent and a victim, and those who are holding him captive are guilty and aggressors. At The Jawa Report, we will not equivocate between the two and hold that the value of the life of an innocent is greater than the value of the life of those guilty of hostage taking.
Posted by: Rusty at
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Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 01, 2005 04:53 PM (0yYS2)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/18/otsc.arraf/
in which four Iraqi border guards were captured, and tortured after being held in a safehouse, I'm sure they might even be relieved to see them.
I'm sure that relief will become 'horror' in short-order when they tell their story to the media, however.
Posted by: dave at December 01, 2005 05:09 PM (CcXvt)
I believe that the terrorists will keep the hostages for a few days, and then in a so-called gesture of good will release them. The terrorists will probably release the hostages to someone who can gain political capital.
I am not sure what will happen to the German woman who was taken hostage, but I fear for her life moreso than for the CPT team. I hope they all come home safe, but with a better understanding of what we are dealing with.
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 01, 2005 05:09 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Scott Free at December 01, 2005 05:34 PM (64hjG)
Actually there have been relatively few cases like this - though a rash at present. There is a reason for this.
Normally under ideal conditions the libs/left, similar groups and the media would be all over Iraq looking to meet insurgents/jihadists to embrace, glorify and get their "point of view" (to mix with their own anti-American baggage).
They haven't done that here (few cases including recent not withstanding) for a simple reason. The insurgents/jihadists scare the living shit out of them. Even the "media" stays in their secure location behind private guards and uses panoramic background shots to give the illusion they are "outside". The current hostages probably didn't get the memo.
The hostages are in serious trouble. The insurgents/jihadists are not (repeat NOT) playing to the media or the lib/left West - to them they are all Western and they don't give a damn. They are playing to the Arab and Muslim street which lives by a whole different set of rules and cultural values.
Note - you will not see wanabe Jane Fonda types hangin' out with jidhadists smiling and swapping revolutionary ideas - because they are smart enough to realise they would be deadmeat to these sick bastards.
Maybe we should open up a discussion on another side motivation of the lib/left anti-war groupings - fear.
yes - fear! (Nobody's talking about it).
I firmly believe that segments of the opposition are afraid of these people, want to run away and hope that they would then leave them alone.
I see this fear throughout the WEST and I believe OBL, the jihadists and all the others can see and smell it too. The jihadists aren't interested in PR - they're interested in fear and terror and see it working.
Posted by: hondo at December 01, 2005 06:23 PM (Jvmry)
Posted by: Markos "fuck em" Zuniga at December 01, 2005 06:27 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: MathewK at December 01, 2005 06:31 PM (pVHqF)
Admittedly, both the press and the blogosphere have been more eager to report their criticisms of the US - conservatives find it convenient to pigeonhole CPT as Anti-American 'leftards' and 'moonbats' while the liberal press has, well, often gone down the route of being 'leftards' and 'moonbats' themselves. But CPT has been very clear about opposing violence of all sorts and has taken the 'side' of the innocent Iraqi civilians who find themselves targeted on all sides and generally caught in the middle of this whole mess.
While Rusty points out CPT's trust in a particular Muslim cleric in Fallujah, all accusations he makes against that cleric are entirely conjecture. Are there radical clerics in Fallujah and the West Bank who espouse violence and vitriol as a means to their ends? Absolutely. Are there moderate clerics in Fallujah and the West Bank who favor peace, compromise, and thriving democracies? Absolutely. I find it highly unlikely that a group like CPT would have aligned themselves with one of the former.
As long as you choose to tar and feather all Muslims, pacifists, and those on the left with the same brush, your only available solution is to kill them all. Amusingly enough, CPT is founded and supported primarily by the historic peace churches: Mennonites, Quakers, Amish, and the like. On the whole, these are pretty conservative groups whose voting patterns generally trend toward the right. On many issues, they probably hold very similar opinions to your own. The one place where they veer off the predictable path is the issue of violence and the use of force.
In other words, these aren't your normal leftists. In fact, they may not even be leftists at all.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while...
Posted by: Rob at December 01, 2005 06:34 PM (vPEvo)
I think that the quality of the beliefs must come into consideration. I find nothing admirable in Mohammed Atta or his accomplices. I find nothing admirable in the suicide bomber who attacks a group of children getting candy from American soldiers. In fact, I revile the memory of these murderous creatures.
Granted, Fox is not on a par with these troglodytes, but his beliefs are so naive and ill-founded that I can find nothing to admire there, either. And I revile him for putting more people at risk for indulging his juvenile fantasies.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 01, 2005 06:43 PM (RHG+K)
Surely the Army will be blamed for not providing enough security.
Posted by: Fred Fry at December 01, 2005 06:48 PM (Jz6jq)
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at December 01, 2005 06:48 PM (RHG+K)
Posted by: john ryan at December 01, 2005 07:00 PM (ads7K)
In Indonesia, as we speak, Christians are under attack as we sit here. Little girls getting their heads chopped off by these Islamist scum, Christian women being thrown into jail for accidently exposing Muslim children to Christian symbols while at a birthday party, and thousands more beat and burned out of their homes. It seems to me that CPT could be of more use in Indonesia. Or perhaps Thailand and Malaysia, where Buddists are under constant attack by the Islamists, with Buddist monks having their heads chopped off to being burned alive and shot. Where is CPT? Perhaps they are there.
For that matter, where is the US? The barbarity now being unleashed on the World by the Islamists is nothing new and has been done before. Anyone familiar with history should know this, and we had better do something drastic pretty quick. Or we ain't seen nothing yet. These people will use WMD if they can get it, because they hate us more than they love life.
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 01, 2005 08:46 PM (rUyw4)
Now you're getting the picture.
"In other words, these aren't your normal leftists. In fact, they may not even be leftists at all."
Yet they are still clueless morons, which in and of itself is sufficient evidence to warrant their removal from the gene pool.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 01, 2005 11:09 PM (0yYS2)
CPT is a small organization but, according to their website, they have maintained short- and long-term delegations in the following conflict zones:
- Burundi & East Congo
- Canada (generally focused on aboriginal land claims conflicts, which have a history of armed conflict)
- Colombia
- Hebron (Isreal/Palestine)
- Iraq
- USA (generally focused on urban violence, gang warfare, with some attention also paid to aboriginal conflicts)
- UK (the focus in the UK is unclear. Surprisingly, while they maintain contacts in Northern Ireland, no formal delegation has ever been sent)
They seem to maintain a policy of only going to conflict zones where they have been invited by local groups or grassroots organizations with whom they can partner.
From the sounds of it, Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia are all places where perhaps CPT could build some bridges and play a role. If you know of any local organizations that are committed to developing peaceful responses to the problems you mention, I'd encourage you to put them in contact with CPT to see if there is some way that they can help.
Posted by: Rob at December 02, 2005 12:30 AM (Wl7Nx)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 02, 2005 08:04 AM (fLJDr)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 03, 2005 10:13 AM (0yYS2)
November 30, 2005
One look at the CPT (Christian Peacemaker Teams) in Iraq website and it becomes obvious who abducted Kember and his associates and why....No doubt all of this Christian activity sincerely upsets the Pentagon and the Bushcons.Uruknet conveniently leaves out the fact that the video WAS NOT first released on al Jazeera as has been reported in the MSM. Rather, the video was released on a well known terrorist website linked to the Islamic Army in Iraq.
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Posted by: Wine-aholic at November 30, 2005 09:08 AM (Wsn+K)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 30, 2005 10:35 AM (rUyw4)
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at November 30, 2005 10:52 AM (RHG+K)
Posted by: Graeme at November 30, 2005 11:45 AM (tzkhu)
Please pray for Mr. Kember and the others.
Posted by: Uncle Ben at November 30, 2005 08:01 PM (g4Hi+)
had a magazine It is disturbing to see his face on television
Posted by: Cruiser at November 30, 2005 10:53 PM (XLwcY)
Secondly, as a combat veteran who operated in his missionary area (West Baghdad), and I say this strongly, Tommy boy, if you interfered in any coalition operations or vilified troops in any way on your supposed "crusade" to uncover fictional horrors, you can take your "Gettinintheway" web blogs (Thats what this organization calls itself and uses as email headers)
I Hope you dine on Iraqi Dates for a year in a "saddam-like" hole of hunger as you make feeble attempts to martyr yourself like the Lord Our god.
Your crusade is not noble, its cowardly.
MADCAP
Posted by: Capster at December 01, 2005 02:48 PM (hZg1m)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 01, 2005 05:01 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: joji cherian at June 12, 2006 10:44 AM (FWbDP)
November 29, 2005
Iraq – a Baghdad-based presence since October 2002. Team members accompanied the Iraqi people through the U.S.-led 2003 war and continue during the post-war occupation to expose abusive acts by U.S. Armed Forces and support Iraqis committed to nonviolent resistance.
This organization went into Iraq while Saddam Hussein was still in power.
Yet, I still hope for the hostages safe release.
UPDATE: Geez, 18 comments on this post and no one noticed that I spelled "history" as "hisory." With friends like you, who needs enemas?
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Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 06:58 PM (8e/V4)
The war on terror is a battle between civilization and chaos. And civilized people tolerate idiots.
Posted by: Marvin at November 29, 2005 07:17 PM (UXH11)
Posted by: Jane at November 29, 2005 08:50 PM (M7kiy)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 08:50 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jane at November 29, 2005 08:55 PM (M7kiy)
I think what Greg is doing is a violation of criminal law. He is making a demand for money, and I think extortion laws would apply in this case.
I think you should seriously consider turning his posts over to the Prosecuting Attorney for investigation of violation of the United States Code. There may also be state statutes in your own state that apply to extortion, which in many cases make it easier to prosecute.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 08:55 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Jane at November 29, 2005 08:57 PM (M7kiy)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 09:01 PM (8e/V4)
He lives in Austin, and I wouldn't doubt that he may be doing this with computers at the University of Texas. I think you should tell the Prosecuter that he may be using computers at UT-Austin and perhaps they can check with UT in an attempt to find out.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:02 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 09:13 PM (8e/V4)
Listen -I hope they return alive but I'm not going to waste a lot of time or words on them.
Posted by: hondo at November 29, 2005 09:23 PM (Jvmry)
These people put themselves in this position - naive, stupid or whatever - does it really matter?
Let it play out - and lets move on.
Posted by: hondo at November 29, 2005 09:29 PM (Jvmry)
Posted by: john ryan at November 29, 2005 09:34 PM (ads7K)
How bout a dead pool on which hostage gets sliced first. I'm thinking the hippy looking guy on the right gets it first. Jihadis don't like hippies. Something about them being morally degenerate.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 09:44 PM (8e/V4)
However, to address your insinuation directly, if I thought that they were pro-Saddam, or approved of his regime, I would have written This group was clearly pro-Saddam, and approved of his regime!
Posted by: Vinnie at November 29, 2005 10:13 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:18 PM (rUyw4)
I do live in the hill country, and I thought I remember him telling me we were neighbors. I could be wrong though.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:22 PM (8e/V4)
My dad's family is from Kerrville, and I was traveling from Abilene to Kerrville and asked Greg to meet me in Austin for a beer. IM told me Greg lived in Austin, and Greg confirmed it, although he might have lied, who knows? He refused to meet me for the beer however, because I wasn't too happy with him at the time, but really, I wouldn't have kicked his ass, even though I felt like it.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:31 PM (rUyw4)
You can find thousands of them on pages to do with Internet anonymity, just a simple reconfiguration of a browser, or sometimes you just post in the URL and it will bring you here through their server.
If that's the case, it's a pretty simple, much like greg.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 10:34 PM (CcXvt)
C'mon, this off-topic stuff is interfering with my ability to order 200 cases of Viagra at the discounted price, dudes.
Posted by: Vinnie at November 29, 2005 10:57 PM (Kr6/f)
X@N@X, V1AGR4 and R3AL F4K3 R0L3X W4TCH!
spammers find the most annoying way to spell / write everything to get around baysian filters, it's got so bad some of them you can't even understand what they're selling!
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 11:03 PM (CcXvt)
And I keep my filters at a minimum, so I don't miss the ads for hot lesbo midget porn.
Posted by: Vinnie at November 29, 2005 11:06 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:18 PM (0yYS2)
But trust me Im not realy nutso. You had to be there.
Posted by: Jane at November 29, 2005 11:27 PM (M7kiy)
Posted by: Cybrludite at November 30, 2005 01:47 AM (XFoEH)
Posted by: SonOfTheGodfather at November 30, 2005 03:35 AM (maXzk)
Posted by: Graeme at November 30, 2005 05:01 AM (tzkhu)
---------------------------------
Joe, I would have met greg for a beer just out of morbid curiosity.
Jane, until I read further on, I was beginning to worry about you. Gotta admit, it sounded a bit weird.
Posted by: Oyster at November 30, 2005 05:54 AM (YudAC)
if they are released - it is because of their successful dialogue with the insurgents in showing its Bush/US fault
if they are rescued - its Bush/US fault for preventing the above
if they are beheaded - its Bush/US fault
It is a no-win situation but it is also a no-important situation.
Notice how much coverage this gets by the MSM (and us at the moment too no less!) compared to the general lack of coverage of anything positive (military, Iraqi Gov etc).
This story is important to them, the lib/left & MSM. I wish them no harm but it is not important to me.
Posted by: hondo at November 30, 2005 06:02 AM (Jvmry)
Posted by: Agent Smith at November 30, 2005 06:05 AM (N6ptp)
Posted by: hondo at November 30, 2005 06:08 AM (Jvmry)
Menonites have a very long history of challenging authority using non-violence and they are also prepared to accept martyrdom for their actions. My guess is they are relying on prayer for comfort. May God protect and comfort them.
I hope that son of dogs, Zarquawi doesn't execute them. Especially on camera.
Posted by: Jeff at November 30, 2005 08:11 AM (/P1rH)
Posted by: carin at November 30, 2005 08:16 AM (grn7M)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 30, 2005 10:19 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 30, 2005 10:39 AM (rUyw4)
Notice they didn't go into Iraq to document Saddam's killing of hundreds of thousands, even though their group has been in existence since 1986(?). They only cared when an organized effort was put together to stop him. Not one word on their site is used to condemn all the atrocities committed in Iraq for decades. Only a constant condemnation of those who fight back.
They think the Iraqis should have kept offering their throats. And, AND, they argue on behalf of those who have killed women, children, the old, the weak.
"Oh, innocent people are being tortured, gassed, raped, dismembered and murdered? Ho hum. Wait! They're fighting? Well, we can't have THAT!"
How sick is that?
Posted by: Oyster at November 30, 2005 03:13 PM (fl6E1)
Search for "Bush," on the other hand, and you'll only find 19 pages of links. Narrow the search to "+Bush +Iraq" and you'll find only 14 pages of links.
Sorry, but your math simply doesn't add up. Overall, the balance of CPT's reporting in Iraq seems pretty even-handed. If anything, Bush seems to fare significantly better than Saddam.
In other words, if there's anything sick in this whole debate, it's the degree to which you have been willing to stretch the facts in the name of your own assumptions and beliefs.
Please, if you want to debate the fervors and follies of pacifism as a viable philosophy, by all means do so. But when it comes to making slanderous assertions about the 4 men currently being held hostage and the organization for which they work, check your assumptions at the door and do your research first.
Posted by: Rob at December 02, 2005 01:12 AM (Wl7Nx)

Sources tell The Jawa Report that the "The Swords of Righteousness Brigade" may be an offshoot of The Islamic Army in Iraq. The announcement and video were posted on that group's website earlier today. The Islamic Army in Iraq has murdered foreign hostages in the past, including Italian Red Cross worker Enzo Baldoni, and has worked with Abu Musab al Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq in the past. The group routinely murders those suspected of being 'collaborators', 'apostates', and 'spies'.
This is bad news for the hostages if confirmed. If the mesage from the Christian Peacemaker Teams is meant to garner sympathy from the Salafist terror organization, then they are barking up the wrong tree. The only hope for the four Westerners is if the U.S., British, or Iraqi armies find them and liberate them--as they did former hostage Roy Hallums. Ironic, since these are the very people who are risking their lives yet who are blamed by the pacifist organization for the plight of their representatives.
Despite the misguided efforts of the pacifist organization, these four activists are victims of Islamist aggression. We condemn the hostage takers and pray for the immediate release. And, unlike the 'Christian Peacemaker Teams', we hope that the terrorists die at the hands of an angry Marine.
Their press release is below: more...
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Posted by: Vonski at November 29, 2005 06:13 PM (Srmrz)
Mounting evidence that Liberalism is a mental disorder. It just keeps piling up.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 06:29 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at November 29, 2005 06:30 PM (RHG+K)
No, I want that Marine to be calm, cool and collected as he professionally takes control of the situation. If the terrorist doesn't listen and obey the Marine's orders, oh well, one bullet, 72 poor virgins
Posted by: Marvin at November 29, 2005 07:00 PM (UXH11)
"Rusty"-
Suppose (counterfactually) that after the 9/11 attacks, Al Qaeda had announced that its only intention was epic vandalism, not murder; that if possible, it would have destroyed the twin towers without taking a single life; but that, inevitably, the collateral damage would be considerable. Wouldn't you hold Al Qaeda responsible for more than the property damage?
You must understand how facile it is to write the off the deaths of over 28,000 Iraqi civilians and over 2,000 American soldiers as "unintentional." For you know that when you drop bombs in an urban area, you know that innocents will die, whether you mean to kill them or not. Perhaps you are justified in your actions; but you cannot wash your hands of the inevitable, predictable consequences simply because you would have rather avoided them.
Before you say that we can't blame our government for the actions of killers and thugs, take note of Colin Powell's former chief of staff, who "blamed Vice President
Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and like-minded aides. Wilkerson said that Cheney must have sincerely believed that Iraq could be a spawning ground for new terror assaults, because 'otherwise I have to declare him a moron, an idiot or a nefarious bastard.'"
Further, consider that 37% of civilian casualties were caused by US-led forces. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr12.php
No one is "overlooking" terrorists' acts of violence. But the wrongfulness of the insurgents' actions goes without saying. Moreover, no advocacy group can hope to make much headway against terrorist cells. Better to spend their time protesting wrongful actions by the United States Government, where they have some hope of turning things around.
Let's preemptively attack your recurring dipshit argument that "the left" essentially equates all violence, whether it comes from the terrorists or from our boys. Of course America is more virtuous than al-Qaeda. Of course Gitmo is less barbaric than Saddam's rape rooms. But if you are really so much better than Saddam and co., you will have to recognize that simply doing better than history's worst is not good enough. I and everyone else know that Bush is better than Saddam -- but he is still god-awful.
Rusty, I have spent too much time on your pitiful website, which seems to be nothing more than a haven for fat, acne-ridden and sexually deprived bootlickers. You are a small-minded, cowardly, and pseudonymous bigot, afraid not only to confront your enemies on the battlefield, but even by means of honest argument. You should be ashamed to dig up dirt on these peaceworkers, these brave people of conviction, whose lives now hang in the balance as a consequence of your politics.
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 07:40 PM (OALXx)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051129/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/wilkerson_interview_10
Au revoir
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 07:43 PM (OALXx)
Please read the press release which specifically blames the U.S. and U.K. and lays no blame at the feet of terrorists. If the group in question really blames terrorists, then you must be reading something I am not since they do not do so. Unless, of course, you can read their minds and hearts which unfortunately I cannot.
So, I'm not exactly sure what your argument is since it is a straw man.
It is up to you to decide whether or not to lump yourself in with groups who equate all violence, I have not done so.
Further, I am not sure your point about dropping bombs on civilians? We dropped bombs on civilians in France in an effort to liberate them, yet the French still greeted us as liberators. 'Facts' such as civilian casualties are utterly meaningless without context. The French chose to contextualize facts of civilian deaths after the invasion of their country by the U.S. as tragic loss in pursuit of a necessary goal.
The meaning ascribed to civilian deaths, then, is a matter of choice. Who we choose to blame when such events occur says a lot about us.
Last, if you hate my website so much why do you keep returning to it?
Posted by: Rusty at November 29, 2005 07:59 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: Jester at November 29, 2005 08:13 PM (BypR5)
Holy crap, did I just die and wake up in heaven? This Leftard just said America is more virtuous than Al Qaida. Is this some kind of a sick joke?
>>>Of course Gitmo is less barbaric than Saddam's rape rooms."
Ok, now I know you're pulling my leg. We all know Bush is the REAL terrorist. But if Saddam's rape dungeons were so bad, how come those moonbats were doing everything in their power to maintain them? Yes, maintain them. They supported his regime through their actions. They supported those rape dungeons. That's why those people revolt me.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 08:32 PM (8e/V4)
You wouldn't have the guts to call me a fat, acne-ridden, sexually deprived bootlicker to my face. I don't lick anybody's boots, bud, I have never had acne, and I have three children, so your theory doesn't seem to pan out.
And if you don't like Rusty's website, buzz off, shithead, as there are plenty of sites that post the type of lefty propaganda you seem comfortable with.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 08:33 PM (rUyw4)
Kyle is nothing more than a Lefty troll. He will bug off after leaving his droppings, and will not have the guts to participate in honest debate, even though he lyingly says he does. What a hypocrit he is!
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 08:37 PM (rUyw4)
I'm glad to hear that you didn't accuse "the left" of "equating" the U.S. and Saddam in your letter to dailykos about white phosphorous. You used the word "equivocate," which means to avoid addressing an issue clearly. Here's the excerpt:
"Equivocating between the U.S. military and the Saddam Hussein regime is exactly what our terrorist enemies do in their propoganda. You say:
'Saddam tortured, we torture. Saddam used WP chemical weapons against insurgents and civilians, we use WP chemical weapons against insurgents and civilians.'
...
The reason [insurgents] fight us in Iraq is that they believe, like you do, that the U.S. is the moral equivalent of Saddam Hussein."
Civilian casualties, you say, are "meaningless" without context. Dying civilians disagree. Nonetheless, you are correct that context matters. You can take responsibility for your actions, acknowledge that you have done horrifying things, but justify your actions by referencing the context. Waving civilian deaths off as "unintentional" is a way of evading all responsibility. You're not taking the Iraqi dead seriously.
I realize that the press does not take the time to condemn terrorism. You missed my point. You like WWII analogies, so this may help: It's the middle of the 1940's. There are internment camps for Japanese-American residents and citizens. I condemn the camps in a press release without condemning the attacks on Pearl Harbor. Is this wrong? (I'm not assuming you would find the internment camps problematic.)
"Who we choose to blame when such events occur says a lot about us." You're right. I imagine that personally, you are utterly incapable of introspection, self-correction and growth.
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 08:53 PM (OALXx)
Was it from the large numbers of Irish-Americans living there?
Posted by: Vinnie at November 29, 2005 09:07 PM (Kr6/f)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:08 PM (rUyw4)
Its easy to point the finger and throw mud at America, and that's what he's doing.
There are millions and millions around the world who are happy to point at America and criticise their efforts at liberating Iraq.
Well i'm still waiting for Kyle and his left wing America-hating allies around the world (and according to them, there are millions, whole countries infact), to go and fix the injustices in the Sudan, Burma, North Korea, China, Somalia, to name a few.
Many are critical of how America and her allies are doing things in Iraq, well why don't you get off your backsides and show us how it should be done. Just remember Kyle, better-than-history is not good enough old boy, you must be perfect, we are waiting, but not with baited breath.
And what's up with this Insurgent fellow, Control+c and Control+v has been around for a while. We all know about it.
Posted by: MathewK at November 29, 2005 09:10 PM (pVHqF)
"Rusty" has a point; why am I hanging around here?
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 09:10 PM (OALXx)
The President and the Congress make these decisions. Unfortunately, my left wing America-hating allies keep losing elections.
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 09:17 PM (OALXx)
The Left sees nothing wrong with the murder of millions of people throughout the world as long as they have stability. They will negociate with tyrants(see the recent talks with Iran) ad infinium while the citizens of these totalitarian states are murdered, gassed, raped, maimed, starved and mutilated.
I'm sick of these people, and while they fiddle, the whole of the West is kindling(see France). These people are now the worst enemy of civilization, even worse than the Islamists because they are a potential fifth column, and in fact are right now as we speak advancing the cause of the Islamists right here in the US. Go to any moonbat convergence in San Francisco or New York and you will see what I mean, or go to Zombie's website and see them in action.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:22 PM (rUyw4)
from your lips to God's ears.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 09:25 PM (8e/V4)
"Unfortunately, my left wing America-hating allies keep losing elections."
Can't disagree with that.
I was hoping that the opponents of America, eg fwance, canada, russia, spain, new zealand, germany, all the others could show us how it should be done.
And i'm not being sarcastic or anything, i'd only be too happy if the opponents of Iraqi Liberation could do better as they so obviously want of uncle sam.
Posted by: MathewK at November 29, 2005 09:57 PM (pVHqF)
Posted by: Kyle at November 29, 2005 10:34 PM (OALXx)
Posted by: Wine-aholic at November 29, 2005 11:07 PM (sH4J5)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:17 PM (0yYS2)
I thought that was pretty harsh.
Now I don't.
SOTG
Posted by: SonOfTheGodfather at November 30, 2005 03:33 AM (maXzk)
Posted by: Agent Smith at November 30, 2005 06:06 AM (N6ptp)
Joe, you hit the nail on the head. Much of the left, Kyle included, seem to subscribe to the same philosophy. Toss them a few bags of rice and some penicillin and let the status quo continue. They'll be heathier and better able to survive when they're dismembered and can better withstand their 'shock treatments' without their heart stopping. Like IM said a few days back (I'll paraphrase): Sure they're being maimed, raped, starved, tortured and murdered, but they enjoy a high rate of literacy!
I wonder if Kyle is angry that during the Revolutionary War innocent people died which brought him a level of freedom never known in any country in the history of the world. Rather than feel anger, yes I feel it's sad that it comes to that, but I am more grateful than anything for those sacrifices.
Those that live mourn the dead, but dying for the cause of freedom for our children and those we love? There's no cause more noble or worthy.
Kyle wants us to understand that the evils of Saddam's regime and others in the world "goes without saying", however! each and every unintentional death must be hashed over, condemned and the perpetrators must be loathed and despised. Which is worse? To do nothing about the wholesale slaughter committed by dictators or to try and stop them while doing your best to protect the innocent?
If such evil is being committed by someone, should we do something about it even knowing some may get hurt? Or leave things be, knowing it will never stop without intervention?
Kyle doesn't see much difference between knowing there will be those who die innocently for a greater good and going after them intentionally. As if it would have been better to line up a few thousand Iraqis, shoot them in the head and leave. Because that's what he acts like we've done. We could have saved a lot of ammunition and the lives of many of our own. But then we'd be just like Saddam, huh? No, instead we're only 'better'. Not the 'best' nor even 'far greater' - just 'better'.
I despise Kyle and those like him, for they do not see the forest for the trees and the lot of so many in the world would never improve.
Posted by: Oyster at November 30, 2005 07:10 AM (YudAC)
If you all truly believe that, then realize that the hostages in Iraq were fighting and will to die for not only their children, but for the world's children. They chose to fight this battle with the pen instead of the sword. And in my eyes that makes extremely courageous and noble. I don't think we should be disrespecting them by calling them 'idiots'. This has nothing to do with them 'siding' with terrorists. They don't. Violence begets violence. When does it stop?
From various postings that I've read on this site, it sounds like there are quite a few Christians here. If that's the case, how does "I hope the blade is dull" reflect Christ's message of "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy".
Before you reach for your keyboard and automatically call me an idiot or a chicken or willing to let people be raped, look at history. Mass revolution through non-violence is possible. Ghandi brought down an Empire by use of non-violent means.
Maybe as Americans we could try putting some of our billion dollar military funding towards non-violent resistance.
Paul
Posted by: Paul at November 30, 2005 12:30 PM (+Emb2)
IM of the "dull knife" comments is not a christian but an atheist. Though I sympathize with the feelings behind his statement, I don't agree with its content. That being said, I'm not losing sleep at night because of those poor fools.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 30, 2005 12:54 PM (6ffkR)
"Violence begets violence. When does it stop?"
When all the murderous psychopaths have been killed. Duh...
"From various postings that I've read on this site, it sounds like there are quite a few Christians here. If that's the case, how does "I hope the blade is dull" reflect Christ's message of "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy"."
Well, as Carlos pointed out, it doesn't. One of the reasons I left Christianity is because it is unrealistic in many aspects. Strike me upon the cheek, and I'll kill you and everyone you've ever met, but leave me in peace, and I'll leave you in peace. My path tends to discourage violent bahavior better than the Christian one, but hey, to each his own. As far as loving enemies, that's much easier done once they're dead.
"Ghandi brought down an Empire by use of non-violent means."
Not really. The empire had lost the will to continue, and allowed him to go about causing his trouble. Under the British, India was peaceful and prosperous, but since independence, it has been in a constant state of war with Pakistan, and is one of the world's poorest, most corrupt countries. Ghandi screwed the people of India.
"Maybe as Americans we could try putting some of our billion dollar military funding towards non-violent resistance."
How much does it cost to surrender to one's enemies? or maybe you mean we should just pay the Danegeld? Of course, either route is acceptable to cowards, but not men. Look, why don't you go down to the local mosque, tell them you want to convert to islam, marry a nice mulsim man and be his little dhimmi bitch? You might as well, because you're useless to us.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 30, 2005 01:55 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: A reasonable human being at November 30, 2005 02:09 PM (z2MBG)
Posted by: Jester at November 30, 2005 03:31 PM (BypR5)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 30, 2005 08:09 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: A reasonable human being at November 30, 2005 08:39 PM (z2MBG)
Posted by: Lifeboat76 at December 01, 2005 04:33 AM (/UPx0)
WHOOP! WHOOP! MOONBAT ALERT!!! WHOOP! WHOOP! I take it this reasoned analysis is based on your decades of study of military science?
"This is not, as some have suggested, due to people who oppose it getting kidknapped, but because any war fought on the basis of providing an Iraq for Iraqis that is more like America."
And what's wrong with that? Don't you think they'd be happier with a democratically elected government, functioning schools and other services, and not having to live in fear of a knock at the door? Wait, I don't know what's wrong with me, of course you don't, because you probably think Saddam was a great guy who was just misunderstood, like Stalin, his idol.
"Of course Iraq needed to lose Saddam, and because of his capture, the war has not been the total failure that the Afghanistan war was, where they never captured Bin Laden."
So by having two successful elections each so far, and reviving their respective economies, and getting kids back in school, etc., that's what you mean by failure? Jesus you liberals are a thickheaded bunch of idiots.
"The sooner George Bush, likeminded Americans, and to a lesser extent British people realise that the rest of the world doesn't like them, and doesn't want their capitalist ideals forced upon them, the sooner they will learn to truly help the rest of the world, and not destabilise it in an effort to gain some oil so we can pollute the planet for a few more years."
Hey Komrade, can't you hear that? It's irrelevancy calling for you. Your moronic Marxist ideals are for suckers, and my guess is that you're either too young, too stupid, or both, to realize that the Soviet Union collapsed, and China and Vietnam have abandoned the communist economic model. Capitalism works dumbass. I had you spotted for an idiot socialist at the very first, and I was right.
"I think it's important for Iraqis that whether they support the occupation of not, they can recieve help, aid, and voice their concerns to non-military workers out there, and it's important that these workers should operate without being captured and killed."
You might want to tell that to the terrorists.
"Unfortunately, their safety cannot be guaranteed, because our governments have suceeded in breeding a distrust in all Westerners amongst Iraqis, however much they have their own interests at heart."
Yeah it's our fault that islam breeds headchopping savages, and they were all so peaceful before 1776. You goddamn idiot liberals are too stupid to be allowed to live.
"Sometimes you need to bomb the hell out of something, sometimes you need to be more sensitive to people's needs, rights and wishes."
So you're up for bombing who, exactly? America maybe? And I'm sure you're very sensitive to the needs of your muslim boyfriend, as he's so oppressed by the eeeeevil infidels and all.
"Surely Jester, if you believe all Muslims are vermin, do you not think that we're provoking attacks by extremists by occupying their country?"
Blah blah blah, snivel snivel whine. It's always the liberals who are willing to blame the victims, and excuse any act of aggression, as long as it's Jews and Christians getting killed, right? Piece of shit.
"Are you saying we should eliminate all Muslim Iraqis?"
How about just the ones who cut people's heads off and murder children with car bombs? No? Maybe we should just try to understand them, ya think?
"Are you even making a point, or just being hateful for the sake of it?"
Are you making a point, or just being a liberal, socialist, terrorist apologist douchebag?
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 01, 2005 05:14 PM (0yYS2)
You read that right. Adopt-a-Detainee:
After a year and a half of coordinated advocacy for Iraqis detained by U.S. and other occupying forces, Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) is ending its Adopt-a-Detainee Letter-Writing Campaign. CPT's Iraq project will, however, continue to monitor the situation of Iraqis captured by the Multinational Force in Iraq (MNF) and by the new Iraqi Forces.
The Adopt-a-Detainee Letter-Writing Campaign, beginning in March 2004, matched individual detainees with congregations, mosques, synagogues, and peace groups in North America and around the world. These groups wrote letters to U.S., Iraqi and other relevant officials on the detainees' behalf. The campaign grew out of CPT's investigation of and reporting on abuses within the U.S.-run detention system in Iraq during the fall of 2003. The Adopt-a-Detainee Letter-Writing Campaign included a total of twenty-seven detainees, nine of whom U.S. officials released during the campaign, ten of whom were still detained at last word, and seven of whom U.S. officials never confirmed as detained (i.e., the "disappeared.")
They're still running the Campaign For Secure Dwellings though:
Since 1995 the Christian Peacemaker Team in Hebron has provided a violence-reduction presence with street patrols, responding when we hear word of trouble, and staying with people in tense times and places. The team also supports Israeli and Palestinian peacemakers in their work. It is clear to us that there can be no security for Israelis or Palestinians as long as the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip continues.
Hm, guess no one bothered to tell them about the Gaza withdrawal earlier this year.
I still hope the hostages are released unharmed.
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05:54 PM
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Posted by: Susan Hallums at November 29, 2005 06:17 PM (OjS5b)
Posted by: MathewK at November 29, 2005 06:23 PM (pVHqF)
Good to see you are still around. I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. Although I believe these hostages were misguided, they are VICTIMS nonetheless.
Posted by: Rusty at November 29, 2005 06:36 PM (JQjhA)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 06:45 PM (8e/V4)
No family should have to suffer as yours did, or as their's are.
Posted by: Vinnie at November 29, 2005 07:00 PM (Kr6/f)
For those who deride and belittle people actively working for peace, even at the cost of their liberty, fortune, and lives and only ask, "what have you done?"
Peace,
Charlie Jackson
Posted by: Charlie Jackson at November 29, 2005 07:46 PM (7w/By)
For my part, I personally have done a lot less damage in this world doing "nothing" than you have done "actively working for peace". In other words, I'm useless, but you're worse than useless. That's why we think you people are such dangerous morons (mostly dangerous to yourself as it turns out). Please, stop doing us anymore favors.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 08:38 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 08:43 PM (rUyw4)
I know that the U.S. military may have to endager themselves to look for these four hostages, but CPT has specifically stated that they DO NOT want the military to intervene to save them....so if the military tries, the effort won't be wanted. They are not there to hurt or endanger our troops, they are not there to do damage, they are there to try to provide us back home with the truth and hold both sides - both the dictators and terrorists and the Coalition Forces - accountable. It may be a hopeless cause, but I can't see how it can be called "damaging."
Posted by: Brian Tyler at November 29, 2005 09:14 PM (rUuaP)
umm, no. The U.S. military itself was the first to denounce human rights abuses at Abu Graib by some of its members, and was actively investigating and prosecuting them long before ANY civilians got wind of it, including your CPT. The only thing you people did was incite hatred against our country by making hay of it, as well as give aid and comfort to our enemies. You are dangerous and irresponsible people. You a little better than children in grown up bodies.
I sincerely hope our military doesn't lift a finger to rescue these moonbats considering their help is neither wanted nor appreciated. This is a bed the moonbats have made, if they want to sleep in it, LET THEM.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 09:55 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:01 PM (rUyw4)
To those being so critical in these threads, please treat the hostages with the same level of respect CPT members have been known to treat individual soldiers and combatants. If you're going to criticize, criticize the organization but respect the human beings who, like all of us, are simply doing what they believe to be right.
Posted by: Rob at November 29, 2005 10:02 PM (Wl7Nx)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:52 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:19 PM (0yYS2)
Had IFOR only been able to deploy 5 people, would they have contributed more or less than CPT to the peace and stability of Bosnia?
Had CPT been able to deploy 50,000 staff to the region, would they have had a greater or lesser effect than IFOR?
Aside from pure personnel counts, what if the two organizations also had comparable financial resources and training periods at their disposal?
It's obviously impossible to say one way or another, but I just wanted to point out how ludicrous you're being with your comparison. I'll tell you what - we've tried the military solution and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. How about we allocate the resources to CPT for a conflict or two and see how they do? Once that's out of the way, we can start comparing apples to apples. ;o)
Don't forget: non-violent movements forced the British out of India, the Soviets out of Poland & the Ukraine, the Syrians out of Lebanon, and also managed to introduce the notion of civil liberties to the grand old US of A. While they may not provide a solution to every problem (Hitler being a classic case study that ties pacifists in knots), the tactical and strategic value of non-violent movements should not to be underestimated.
Posted by: Rob at November 30, 2005 12:00 AM (Wl7Nx)
I think we both know, the United States will send in Soldiers even if it's not wanted, it's a non-issue. Therefore they have put both Soldiers, Iraqi citizens and themselves in harms way.
Hooray for Peace!
If your organization pays a ransom, it should be likewise be held accountable, as that money is used to fund insurgency/terrorism against U.S Soldiers and Iraqi citizens.
Posted by: dave at November 30, 2005 12:04 AM (CcXvt)
I think you know the answer to these questions without hypotheticals.
Posted by: Oyster at November 30, 2005 08:29 AM (fl6E1)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 30, 2005 10:29 AM (0yYS2)
Oyster - I'm of the opinion that there are times when violence has worked (World War 2, for instance) and there are times when non-violent resistance has worked (India, Poland, Ukraine, Lebanon, and others, as I mentioned in my post). Hypotheticals have nothing to do with it.
There are many types of conflicts (ranging from schoolyard bullying and trade union disputes to gang wars to world wars to wars of philosophy or religion or oil). There are also many viable and long-proven approaches to conflict resolution, ranging from non-violent resistance, mediation, and peaceful diplomacy to walking up to someone and putting a cap in their ass.
To assume that overwhelming violence is the only solution to a given problem, this one included, is like building a house with a sledgehammer as your only tool. In ignoring the possibility that CPT might have something to offer, you're ignoring the lessons of history and limiting your options before you even enter the conflict zone. Why do you think the British military had fewer troubles in Iraq than the Americans - it's because they brought a broader spectrum of skills to the table and trained their troops to do more than simply pull the trigger. There are conflict situations, and I believe Iraq to be one of them, where overwhelming force is neither a viable nor an effective solution to the problem at hand.
Posted by: Rob at November 30, 2005 01:50 PM (ANbsn)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 30, 2005 01:57 PM (0yYS2)
Can we not agree to recognize CPTers, Iraqis, and soldiers as human lives alike, no matter what they have or haven't been doing? As a pacifist I could say the exact same things about American soldiers and the US Army as others have said here about pacifists and CPTers. As a pacifist I do not believe in war theology and therefore see the US Military and soldiers as detrimental to peace in Iraq and even to global politics, but would I ever criticize a soldier for the sacrifice he or she makes by enlisting in the army (that is for volunteering to fight just as CPTers volunteer to work for peace)? Of course not.
It is completely unecessary to belittle and dehumanize the work of our fellow human beings and fellow Americans who also happen to work for CPT. Calling them names and talking about "you people" is not a mature or practial way to discuss this issue which goes far beyond peace/war theology, but deals with the loss or salvation of human lives whether they be soldiers, CPTers, or Iraqis.
Posted by: collegiate pacifist at December 01, 2005 12:12 PM (Gut2v)

**Jawa Report Exclusive**
***The Jawa Report releases names of four Western hostages.***
A hostage video has been released of the four Western peace activists taken hostage in Iraq. The Jawa Report has obtained a copy of the video. Images from the video and links to video posted below. The video shows American Thomas Fox of Clear Brook Virginia, Canadian Harmeet Singh Sooden, who resides in Auckland, New Zealand, British citizen Norman Kember, and some one who appears to identify himself as James Loney(spelling confirmed) of Canada.
Previously only Norman Kember had been identified. The Christian Peacemaker Teams organization has confirmed to The Jawa Report in an e-mail that the four hostages were working for that group.
The copy of the video I have makes no ransom demands, although a voice can be heard directing the hostages in the background. UPDATE: Ian at the Political Teen is hosting a segment of the video here.
Here is a transcript of the video:
My name is Norman Kember. I am 74. I am a member of the Christian Peacemaking team in Iraq.Hat tip: Doubletap who e-mailed me the video.My name is Harmeet Sooden. I am 32 and I am working..I'm a volunteer for the CPT in Iraq.
My name is James Loney. I am 41 years old. I am from Canada and I am part of the Christian Peacemaker team in Iraq.
My name is Tom Fox and I am 54 years old. I am from the United States and I am a member of the Christian Peacmakers team in Iraq.
Here is a rough translation of the statement accompanying the video--again, thanks to Doubletap:
foreign arrest of four spySwords of Righteousness Brigade is how some MSM outlets are translating the announcement. The group accused the four peace activists of "masqerading" as peace activists and of really being spies. Update: My sources indicate that "The Swords of Righteousness Brigade" may be an offshoot of The Islamic Army in Iraq. The announcement and video were posted on that group's website earlier today. The Islamic Army in Iraq has murdered foreign hostages in the past, including Italian Red Cross worker Enzo Baldoni, and has worked with Abu Musab al Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq in the past. This is bad news for the hostages if confirmed.Praise be to God god of the scientists and the prayer and the faithful peace on the prophet, and on his family and accompanied him ['ajme'yn]
As for after. Losing managed your brothers in secrecy of swords the truth from arrest of four spy is foreign forces of the occupation under cover do for what Christian team the peace rises in, [wllh] the praising god of the scientists.
Secrecy swords of the truth
The original announcement in Arabic can be downloaded here if some one would like to offer a better translation.
UPDATE: Flip from Suitably Flip has a different machine translation here which is a little clearer.
UPDATE II: Shawn of Bareknucklepolitics points us to these dispatches from Iraq written by hostage Thomas Fox who wonders if Americans are inheritly racists and have colonialist attitudes. We pity people like Tom who have such low regard for the men who will now risk their lives to save his.
UPDATE: Jawa Report revelations force CPT to confirm identities of hostages.
We can confirm the identities of those who are being held as follows:Update: Ex-wife of former hostage Roy Hallums chimes in:Tom Fox, age 54, is from Clearbrook, Virginia and is a dedicated father of two children. For the past two years, Mr. Fox has worked with CPT in partnership with Iraqi human rights organizations to promote peace. Mr. Fox has been faithful in the observance of Quaker practice for 22 years. While in Iraq, he sought a more complete understanding of Islamic cultural richness. He is committed to telling the truth to U.S. citizens about the horrors of war and its effects on ordinary Iraqi civilians and families as a result of U.S. policies and practices.
Mr. Fox is an accomplished musician. He plays the bass clarinet and the recorder and he loves to cook. He has also worked as a professional grocer. Mr. Fox devotes much of his time to working with children. He has served as an adult leader of youth programs and worked at a Quaker camp for youth. He has facilitated young people's participation in opposing war and violence. Mr. Fox is a quiet and peaceful man, respectful of everyone, who believes that "there is that of God in every person" which is why work for peace is so important to him.
Norman Kember, age 74, is from London, England.He and his wife of 45 years have two married daughters and a 3-year old grandson. He has been a pacifist all his life beginning with his work in a hospital instead of National Service at age 18. Before his retirement he was a professor teaching medical students at St Bartholemew's Hospital in London. He is well-known as a peace activist, and has been involved in several peace groups. For the past 10 years he has volunteered with a local program providing free food to the homeless. He likes walking, birdwatching, and writing humorous songs and sketches. In his younger days he enjoyed mountaineering.
James Loney, 41, is a community worker from Toronto, Canada. He has been a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams since August 2000, and is currently the Program Coordinator for CPT Canada. On previous visits to Iraq, his work focused on taking testimonies from families of detainees for CPT's report on detainee abuse, and making recommendations for securing basic legal rights. James was leading the November 2005 delegation in Iraq when he went missing.James is a peace activist, writer, trained mediator, and works actively with two Toronto community conflict resolution services. He has spent many years working to provide housing and support for homeless people.
In a personal statement from James to CPT, he writes: "I believe that our actions as a people of peace must be an expression of hope for everyone. My hope in practising non-violence is that I can be a conduit for the transformative power of God's love acting upon me as much as I hope it will act upon others around me."
Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32 is a Canadian electrical engineer. He is studying for a masters degree in English literature in Auckland University in New Zealand to prepare for a teaching career. He enjoys art, is active in squash and worked part time as a local squash coach. His family describes him as peaceful and fun-loving and he is known to be passionate about the plight of the underprivileged around the globe. He works tirelessly in his spare time to educate and help others.
I was deeply saddened to hear that more hostages were taken. These men were good Christian men trying to help promote peace in Iraq. I will pray for their safe release and for their families. There is such devastation to the families , I know this horror... I pray for them , I wish I could help in some way.-Susan Hallums
Developing.....
Images below. more...
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Posted by: RepJ at November 29, 2005 12:29 PM (6mUkl)
Posted by: goesh at November 29, 2005 12:39 PM (1w6Ud)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2005 12:44 PM (g5Nba)
Posted by: Henry at November 29, 2005 01:00 PM (1w6Ud)
On a more sane note...this group doesn't look like Zaqueery's mob so these guys may survive and learn from the error of their ways. I wonder if they truely believe their peaceful resistance techniques now, surely not. They all look shit scared to me...who wouldn't be.
Posted by: Jester at November 29, 2005 01:14 PM (BypR5)
Posted by: buzz at November 29, 2005 01:25 PM (kwhut)
Posted by: JUMMY at November 29, 2005 01:36 PM (Z81HX)
Terrorist victims are rationalized with:
Muslim Victim: Apostate, Foe of Allah.
Anyone Else: Crusader/Jew spy.
That's how they rationalize the need to execute them to their brethren.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 01:39 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Al(fredo) at November 29, 2005 01:40 PM (1w6Ud)
Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?
Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM (M7kiy)
Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?
Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM (M7kiy)
Or will they think, "Wait a minute. I've changed my mind. Kill all these SOB's and let Allah sort em out!" ?
Posted by: Mark at November 29, 2005 01:46 PM (M7kiy)
Just as soon as they lose their heads, of course.
Posted by: Laurence Simon at November 29, 2005 01:51 PM (uBCxH)
what a bunch of fools the terrorists have made out of you. Look at you now. Not a peep out of you. That's right, shut your damn mouths you fools or they'll cut your damn heads off. You're in the hands of islamic terrorists now. Yeah, is "Bush" still oppressing you? Are you still being silenced by the Patriot Act? It's the "american taliban" you're REALLY afraid of, right? Now look at you, you fools.
Posted by: dcb at November 29, 2005 01:54 PM (8e/V4)
"CPT does not advocate the use of violent force to save lives of its workers should they be kidnapped, held hostage, or caught in the middle of a conflict situation."
Nice to know that the people who encouraged you to walk into this mess will do absolutely nothing to try to get you out.
Posted by: reuben at November 29, 2005 01:56 PM (n2MQT)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 02:08 PM (0yYS2)
I'm glad you've never made a mistake!
There is nothing wrong with fighting for peace, even soldiers pray for peace.
You do not have to go to Iraq in order to get it, let's face it we're in Iraq, we will be in Iraq, a few guys and their Bible are not going to change that, so it is irresponsible to put themselves in that situation.
They have not only endangered the lives of themselves, and the U.S Special Forces whom are charged with locating and possibly rescuing them, but also Iraqi nationals, their presence as known Christians endangers people in a region where being suspected of being a Christian gets you dead, being seen in the street with them may get you executed.
However, do not mistake irresponsible, with deserving. I hope they are released safely, and hopefully discourage others whom think it's a good idea to tour Iraq with a message of "peace".
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 02:13 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Michael at November 29, 2005 02:14 PM (ycKg/)
Posted by: Jo macDougal at November 29, 2005 02:14 PM (R3FcZ)
Jesse Jackson!
Where are ya?
We need ya Jesse!
C'mon up outta Nawlins and gitchass ova to Irack!
Some flawa chillins fittin' ta die.
Posted by: Dr. Zubov at November 29, 2005 02:20 PM (mJD6w)
Posted by: Jamie at November 29, 2005 02:22 PM (x06hv)
I'm glad you're not a bunch of hypocrites.
Posted by: Jazz at November 29, 2005 03:08 PM (OWQVi)
Jesse Jackson!
Where are ya?
We need ya Jesse!
C'mon up outta Nawlins and gitchass ova to Irack!
Some flawa chillins fittin' ta die.
I wonder where the right wing gets its reputation for being a bunch of bigots and homophobes? Damned liberals, always slinging mud!
Posted by: Jazz at November 29, 2005 03:10 PM (OWQVi)
Interesting. I'm not really the conspiratorial type but...interesting.
Posted by: kelly at November 29, 2005 03:10 PM (wOrpg)
If we send any warriors to help them they will be denounced as war criminals just as they were in the Italian "activist's" case.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at November 29, 2005 03:11 PM (R3FcZ)
Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 03:12 PM (0ZBsv)
Posted by: jummy at November 29, 2005 03:21 PM (Z81HX)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 03:24 PM (8e/V4)
If the shoe fits, wear it. You were the one referring to someone as the Hitler (Bush) Youth. And to accuse someone of being a hypocrit, with the baggage you have, is well, hypocritical. The old "it takes one to know one rap".
As for the hostages, poetic justice is the term often used to describe the mess this bunch of interlopers have gotten themselves in to. But they do not deserve to die, and I do not wish it upon them. I pray for their safe and speedy release.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 03:29 PM (rUyw4)
few choruses of "Kumbaya" (the left's answer to
war), the kidnappers will see the true inner
peace, love and harmony of these activists.
Then, they'll cut off their heads.
Posted by: George at November 29, 2005 03:33 PM (FWm03)
few choruses of "Kumbaya" (the left's answer to
war), the kidnappers will see the true inner
peace, love and harmony of these activists.
Then, they'll cut off their heads.
Posted by: George at November 29, 2005 03:35 PM (FWm03)
Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 03:38 PM (0ZBsv)
He droves these freedom fighters of
the ROP to violence! And now they are
threatening violence to the peaceful
Christian Peacemaking teams (aka "Infidels")
.
The head hackers don't seem impressed by
a committment to peace. They are committed
to piece(s). Who could have saw that
coming?
Posted by: John at November 29, 2005 03:38 PM (ZzPNi)
Posted by: dr at November 29, 2005 03:39 PM (tw567)
Posted by: Michael B at November 29, 2005 03:40 PM (UXg6Y)
You neo-libs play loose with the hate speech(that's what you call the same thing if a conservative says it, so turn about is fair play), and expect to get a free pass for what reason? Because a different set of rules apply to you? Not hardly, my friend, those days are over, and we are going to spotlight your hate for everyone to see. That is what you are upset about! And you have the cheek to call someone a hypocrit. Remove the mote from your eye, Jazz, before you criticize the splinter in mine!
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 03:42 PM (rUyw4)
As to the comment by Dave that soldiers pray for peace? Not always.
Mack
Posted by: Mack at November 29, 2005 03:51 PM (+3jAi)
Canadians need a reason to get angry at
the izlamofascists. New Zealanders need
a reason to get angry at the
izlamofascists. Virginians don't need
another reason to get angry at the izlamofascists, but apparantly some of them
need a reminder, just as Jordanians needed a reason to get angry at the izlamofascists.
The people of the hostages' countries need
them to be beheaded.
Posted by: PMofthePOL at November 29, 2005 03:53 PM (ivdgY)
Posted by: Jester at November 29, 2005 04:30 PM (BypR5)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 04:42 PM (9Gdx8)
Posted by: Kilroy at November 29, 2005 04:45 PM (0ZBsv)
If they are truly innocent they will be beheaded, but since they aren't they will be released from their staged 'confinement'.
The irony of course is the 'witch' is released to burn us... rather then be burned.
How many times do we need to see this?
The Japanese fraud-u-trio, the two Italian 'hostage-frauds' and the recently released "journalist" who was able to prove his anti-American writings excused him...
Or the MyPetJawa documented Giuliana Sgrena Hostage Hoax
Posted by: DANEgerus at November 29, 2005 05:03 PM (J8yxJ)
Posted by: zhorkon at November 29, 2005 05:11 PM (3706O)
Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 05:25 PM (Bv9qa)
The un-uniformed, stateless and masked murderers of any humanity, from baby, mother, father (and most feared by them, G.I. Joe) that present a target, do not care about religion or compassion. They care only about an opportunity to lend credence to their personal power. The Koran, written by their descendants, provides abundant words for alibis. The less talented they are from hard work or studious application, the more likely they are to make up the rules ad hoc.
They are on a par with KKK, neo-nazi, marxist, or religious fundamentalists of every stripe. "Victimization" is their excuse for all that modernity has produced which they envy but cannot reproduce themselves.
They can be convinced that 72 virgins await them in the afterlife, but cannot get a date or appeal to any female in this life; except by rape!
Liberals blindly make propaganda for them at their peril for Liberals never met a savage.
The gazelle at least is intelligent enough to run from the cheetah.........
Posted by: Gyrene warrior at November 29, 2005 05:42 PM (6mUkl)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 06:11 PM (9Gdx8)
"Did you ever read about the Fall of the Roman Empire"
Often. City of Rome (trational founding) 753 BC. Last Western Emperor deposed 476 AD. Final fall of Eastern Empire 1453 AD. Sounds like a pretty good run to me. So you're saying Bush's "lies" are going to turn the USA into a two-millenium empire? Cool!
Posted by: File Closer at November 29, 2005 06:24 PM (xvfRU)
Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 06:32 PM (Bv9qa)
Myles: You are stupid.
While Canadian cowards safely play in the streets Americans hold the line against the Islamic terrorists. A country that would welcome you isn't worth pissing on. Canada has gone butts up to the muslims. Piss on the white hating socialists. I say close the border. Who needs cowards.
Posted by: greyrooster at November 29, 2005 06:40 PM (ZaAd/)
If they feel more brotherly toward those in Iraq than their own countrymen and leaders, wouldn't they be expressing the ultimate Love by laying their lives down for another propaganda snuff film?
How is it all these people Found the Lord and yet they can't seem to muster any love for George Bush? He's a Christian - their Brother - and yet they demonize him, go against God by claiming to know the contents of his heart.
If you really think Bush is your enemy, you are instructed by Christ to pray for him and nothing more.
Posted by: SAS at November 29, 2005 06:44 PM (DRifx)
Posted by: Rob at November 29, 2005 06:54 PM (ANbsn)
for some odd reason Liberals can find it within themselves to "understand" terrorists, rioters, and villains of every variety, but never conservatives or "Bush". These villains that Libs are able to appreciate always have some good reason for what they do or believe. But conservatives never do. Odd, isn't it?
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 07:02 PM (8e/V4)
Thank you for proving my thesis that some have never met a savage. Last time I checked, "I" and my kind did not let Bush or anyone get elected. The American voter did that. Breaking news: I risk my life for my marines not for war per se. I am the rough man that lets you two ramble on about stuff of which you have the barest grasp.
History of Rome? I have a masters degree in history. What are your credentials? Nice "monte: watch the hands..." shift to politics rather than dissecting my plainly stated comment.
Just keep grazing gazelles, I am on watch.
If you say it long enough, you can actually make yourselves believe that cheetahs do not exist.
Posted by: Gyrene Warrior at November 29, 2005 07:17 PM (6mUkl)
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 07:27 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 07:45 PM (9Gdx8)
Mohammed, now there was a madman. And his sick ideology disguised as religion has killed far more people than Bush could ever hope to, if that were indeed Bush's hope.
Gazelle, meet cheetah!
Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 29, 2005 07:48 PM (Bv9qa)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 08:19 PM (9Gdx8)
When it recovered, it bit the friar. As the friar lay dying, he called out “O serpent, I cared for you and nursed you back to health, why have you slain me!?†“Because I’m a snakeâ€, said the serpent as he slithered away.
Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 08:29 PM (64hjG)
My prayers for them and their families.
Posted by: Helen at November 29, 2005 08:33 PM (7PRmq)
Rob, yes, it is foolish. Noble, perhaps. Honorable, perhaps. Foolish, definitely. Scott explains why very nicely.
Posted by: mrsizer at November 29, 2005 08:45 PM (8rPv6)
Good, because I would hate to see any of our Troops had to put themselves into harm's way because of these foolish people who have no business in a war zone to begin with.
Posted by: LindaSoG at November 29, 2005 09:14 PM (V4RE+)
"For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 B.C sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached and, once he has been removed from office, put on trial along with the rest of the president's men."
The end result of the public's blind obedience to the Neocons' amoral machinations will be costly, especially with the unleashing and indirect training of horrible, bloodthirsty terrorists for years to come:
"...a divided, chaotic, government-less Iraq is very likely to become a hornets' nest. From it, a hundred mini-Zarqawis will spread all over the Middle East, conducting acts of sabotage and seeking to overthrow governments in Allah's name."
http://www.forward.com/articles/6936
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2005/11/journal_creveld.html
Posted by: Collin Baber at November 29, 2005 09:21 PM (Xf0ch)
I pity you all and the hate in your hearts.
Posted by: Jeremiah at November 29, 2005 09:23 PM (u+/wl)
You're assuming that this organization is in any way sympathetic to the Iraqi insurgency or armed groups of any sort. From what I understand, they take the middle ground, that of the innocent citizens who were first bombed by the US military and are now being bombed again by the insurgents. Surely everyone here can appreciate, if even for a fleeting second, that not everyone in a country of 25 million people can possibly be considered gun-wielding zealots intent on America's downfall.
In every large-scale conflict, there are innocent people who get caught in between. I think it's fair to say that the US military isn't looking out for those people right now and neither are the Iraqi insurgents. These four hostages were knowingly and willingly defending the lives and rights of innocent people within a dangerous war zone and, for that, I think they deserve our respect. Will that save their lives? Maybe, maybe not. Judging from the tone of this particular thread, it wouldn't save their lives if the denizens of the Jawa Report were their captors, either.
Posted by: Rob at November 29, 2005 09:26 PM (Wl7Nx)
How anyone can compare loosing 2 legions (10-14,000 men) in a single day's ambush to conquering an entire country and setting up a new government in 3 years time while losing only 2,000 men and call themself a military expert is beyond me.
Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:29 PM (64hjG)
How?
Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:33 PM (64hjG)
Your kidding, right. You expect the American people to impeach a duly elected President on the advice of an Israeli. Now who said the British were becoming anti-Jewish?
And if I remember my history correctly, Augustus lost 12 legions of 40,000-50,000 men, their entourage of 10,000, and a host of weapons, horses and the tools of war. Now how does the loss of 2000 men, as bad as that is, equate with Augustus' loss?
With the stupid statement this guy made, I can hardly believe he is anything more than an apologist for the Left. And frankly, Collin, so are you.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:39 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Booyakka at November 29, 2005 09:43 PM (QRakx)
Google is my friend. That would be 3 legions with a loss of about 15000 men and the entire entourage. The question still stands.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 09:43 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Scott Free at November 29, 2005 09:54 PM (64hjG)
Scott,
you must understand, for Collin to have found somebody to agree with him who isn't a total street vagrant hippie moonbat or conspiracy theorist is a huge deal. The fact that his cite is Israeli is SHOCKING to Collin, so he cites the guy like he was citing God himself, as if we don't have about 150 guys we could cite to the contrary to every one of Collin's cites.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:29 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 10:31 PM (9Gdx8)
what can I say, you're the biggest dumbass on the planet. I could have written that post for you, it's so cliched.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:37 PM (8e/V4)
Jesus said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".
I hope that you receive such mercy when judgment is meted out for wishing the deaths of innocents. Now is the time to stand together with our fellow citizens who are in such grave danger. Now is the time for thoughts and prayers for them and their families.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 10:38 PM (4p91Z)
How do we know these men are innocent? I mean no harm, I just wonder what these men were doing? Exactly what did they do that was promoting peace? I'm just curious, so don't go calling me a fascist and all that. And I have not wished for their death.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:41 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 10:57 PM (4p91Z)
These men know, in and of themselves, that all they can become are martyrs. They have no ability to influence policy and to put themselves in danger that increases the danger to our people is foolish.
I for one will think even less of extremists than I do now.
Pray for them, for the sake of your own peace of mind.
Pray for those that despitefully use them.
And pray for their families.
Posted by: Cricket at November 29, 2005 11:10 PM (dIi7S)
This is big news for Canadians. Many of us have been thinking about the hostages since the news of their kidnapping, especially since two of them are Canadians. Until now, their identities have been unknown in this country (as far as I know, anyway).
When I read the first bit here, and then scrolled down to see the pictures of the people, I had a sinking sense of dread. We all know what these kidnappers are capable of. We have mourned the murder of hostages, American, British, Japanese and others, as they have happened. The manner in which they die is particularly disturbing and grotesque, a fate I would not wish on anyone.
I also thought about their families and friends. It's entirely likely that many of them, especially more distant relatives, friends and acquaintances, will learn the identities of the people they know from this source. Like I pointed out, a lot of people read Bourque. I thought about how they would feel seeing their loved ones pictured here. I thought about the sick feeling I had in the pit of my stomach, and thought how that would be multiplied a hundred, a thousand times.
And then I started reading the comments. I expected an outpouring of support for those who were kidnapped and the people who love and care about them. I intended to leave my own message of hope and support. Instead, I was shocked by what I found. I'm still shocked.
What I read today was the lowest of the low.
To those who come here seeking information about the people you know, I hope you understand that what you read is the opinions of what is thankfully a minority. Don't take it to heart. Across the globe, people are thinking about, praying for, and wishing and hoping for the best outcome to this situation. Do not give up hope.
Posted by: Ade at November 29, 2005 11:13 PM (4p91Z)
Posted by: Myles at November 29, 2005 11:13 PM (9Gdx8)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:27 PM (0yYS2)
When they feel that they have a good reason to? After all, if they had every reason to bomb the world trade center, then surely they must have every reason to take a few balding middle-aged white folks hostage. Try to put yourself in their shoes and "understand" them. It's what you Lefties do, no?
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 11:28 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 11:30 PM (8e/V4)
Fake Christians stage a fake confinement which will be proven by their release. Why do I say so?
Because this isn't the first, or the second, or the third time...
Human Shields trying to support the deposed fascist minority Sunnis against the oppressed majority America/UK liberated and I'm supposed to give these self delusional frauds the "out pouring of support" they demand because they pretend to run through traffic unsupervised?
JOE LIEBERMAN Today:
"I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn. . . .
Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory. "
Posted by: DANEgerus at November 29, 2005 11:42 PM (xOSOK)
This is what is posted on the CPT, the "peace" group to which some of the hostages belong, website. Not one word of condemnation for the bastards who ACTUALLY KIDNAPPED THEIR PEOPLE!
Why isn't that suprising? Because it is written in Leftist Dogma that Everything is the fault of the USA, even when it is carried out by very men the USA is fighting.
And you spineless, worthless pacifists wonder why we get frustrated with you. You wonder why we sometimes need to vent.
Free pacifists are a historical aberration. Parasites on systems they could neither build nor maintain. In nature, you would be slaves. You only exist as free people due to the exertion of better men. So get out of the fucking way and let the better men of the U.S. and Coalition forces do their fucking jobs.
Posted by: Scott Free at November 30, 2005 12:19 AM (64hjG)
Posted by: Myles at November 30, 2005 12:19 AM (9Gdx8)
Have a nice day you leftard and if at all possible STFU!
Oh, and ADE, for goodness sake, grow a bleepin' spine, helps the posture doncha know.
Thank you
Posted by: Jake Jacobsen at November 30, 2005 01:07 AM (9DQPO)
The Christian doctrine, turning the other cheek, is admirable (I am a Christian btw) but will simply lose us more lives in the romantic notion that we make a difference to the Islamofascists until we are dead. Only a dead infidel is a good infidel. The day when we truly come to that realization is the day we can start being pro active and not reactive.
If we are not careful we will wake up one morning with a war on our own doorstep like Europe has right now. Look at the outrageous demand by the Muslim community in the U.K to outlaw all opposing views to the prophet Mohammed. Excuse me?
Islam is not about live and let live, just read any of the new Iranian President's mantras. It is about Islam being the way for all of us. Ahem?
Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 02:51 AM (9JKJs)
Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 03:05 AM (9JKJs)
"To be frank, I shall be bitterly dissapointed if they dont receive the outcome they are inviting upon themselves by going to such a place, unwanted and unworthy of rescue."
You saw a long segment on Channel 4 and now you are judging the man to a death sentence. What is wrong with you?
You say there is no fool like an old fool, so what if the man has romantic notions of this kind. So has half if not the whole of the left political spectrum world wide. Do you sentence them all to death?
I am to the right of Genghis Khan on the issue of terrorists, I have documented that well enough, but if people disagree with my point of view, it is not something I view punishable by death. How can you even allow yourself to be so cruel.
And of course we pray for the hostages and their safe return, discussing the issue with people that don't, is simply a waste of time.
Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 03:23 AM (9JKJs)
Agent Brown, Agent Jones and Agent Smith also condemn the armchair fighting 101st Keyboarders, chickenhawks and other cowardly rabble for their disgusting remarks and taunts that attempt to devalue the lives of those four brave people.
Posted by: Agent Smith at November 30, 2005 06:03 AM (N6ptp)
Next...
Posted by: The Hat at November 30, 2005 06:36 AM (lKx5b)
Isn't it amazing how the liberal media and Dimmocrats will do anything to take down all the good work the military has done? They will stop at nothing to make the US look bad or worse, make our well trained troops look like they are worse than Saddam. The media will not report on all the good that has been done.
As for these "peacekeepers", just reading thier bios, the seem no better than the liberal media. Mind you, I don't want these men harmed, not one hair of thier head touched. I will pray for thier safe release, but these men also need to open thier eyes and see the good that has been done.
Posted by: Sburstall at November 30, 2005 06:59 AM (Ezrcu)
I will pray that God's will be done in their lives.
Of course, keep in mind that God is NOT OBLIGATED TO LIMIT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS TO WHAT THE NEW YORK TIMES, ABC, CBS, CBC, NBC, CNN, OR FOX says.
And God is NOT LIMITED by your desires that Saddam's murderous actions, stopped by George Bush, be completely ignored and not taken into account. Just because YOU DO NOT, does not mean that God will not either. He will connect ALL the dots that require connecting, and all your screeching, begging, crying, and whining will not deter Him from doing that one nanometer.
And God is not constrained by pseudo-interpretations of International Law. Hell, he's not constrained AT ALL by International Law, given how Jesus treated the additions and amendations that the Pharisees awarded themselves. He didn't spare them, he won't spare George Bush, and he sure WON'T SPARE YOU.
By being on the Internet, here, now, at this moment, you have no excuses for blinding yourselves or blinkering your vision, treating the terrorists to a different standard than you treat the Americans, and treating yourselves to a different standard than you treat the Americans, given all the information that you have available to you, AND the example of Christ who commanded the application of one rule, one standard, to all without partiality. If you're really lucky, He'll relentlessly apply one standard to all, and nobody's screaming, begging, and pleading will sway Him otherwise. If you're really unlucky, He'll measure out to YOU using the same measuring cup, the same standard, YOU applied to others.
Posted by: Ptah at November 30, 2005 07:09 AM (U2bNV)
My point is that myles' blather and talk about George Bush facing God on Judgment day ignores the fact that if Bush is to be judged, Myles will too. And I will be too. No exclusions. No exceptions. Nobody is special.
And on that day, God will take All the facts into account. Those facts not only include what you knew, but what you could have known if you dug around. It will include your motives. I am absolutely sure that it will include a judgment of how hard you tried to get all the facts and how fairly and unfairly you judged your opponents who tried to tell you of facts you were ignoring (if they actually did try). And He WILL include Saddam's actions and deeds into the equation. And all of what America, Russia, france, Britain did prior to all that. I have. Some commenters here clearly have not, for various reasons that will be judged as well. Being on the internet, we ALL won't have any excuses for pleading ignorance.
Oh, and another thing: God will also factor in whether you realized you were wrong, and will judge your efforts in righting what you did wrong. Or your efforts to evade admitting you were wrong.
So Myles, if I were you, I wouldn't wish for Judgment Day for Bush anytime soon: The SAME bell that will toll for Him will toll for ME, and toll for YOU, as well.
Posted by: Ptah at November 30, 2005 07:26 AM (U2bNV)
I want to know what I said about these men that is hateful. In my first post I clearly said that these people did not deserve to die, and that I prayed for their safe return.
Me asking a question, and your refusal to answer, I suppose in your mind that makes me a hater. While you pray for me, I will have you in mine.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 30, 2005 10:28 AM (rUyw4)
The great peacenik Bertrand Russell, before he joined CND and before the USSR got the Hbomb publicly argued that the US should preemptively nuke Russia to stop them getting it. This argument was subsequently tactfully forgotten as he turned to seeking our own disarmament. However, we should damn well apply this principle to Iran.
But coming back to the Futile Four, sure I am praying. I am praying they get their heads lopped the same way as many good people who didnt go there intending that. If they genuinely believe they have a loving God watching over them, then why the Hell should they be afraid of dying! Thats the thing about Christians, they want us to believe in Heaven but they dont REALLY believe in it themselves!
Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 10:34 AM (5GO10)
By fighting them in the same way they fight us you take away our freedom and dignity. You take away our equality and principles of freedom, the very freedom you fight for. We need to fight them with zero tolerance I agree, but if we discard our principles in order to fight the Islamofascists, we run the risk of erasing the distinction between us.
As for the Four Kidnapped I could not disagree with you more in your harsh judgment. You probably don't even mean it. I have to put aside your exaggerated rhetoric and simply say that you cannot seriously wish to execute people for being simply naive, and as I said before you would have to execute half if not the whole of the left political spectrum world wide.
You sound like you are either in the army yourself or part of some sort of special force unit trained to systematically expel all possible emotions that may jeopardize your mission.
Zero Tolerance should be directed towards the terrorists, not the rest of us, whether Christian or Atheist.
Posted by: Alexandra at November 30, 2005 12:12 PM (9JKJs)
Posted by: josie at November 30, 2005 01:01 PM (Sc9zg)
Ha, what a hoot! I'd say this ironic little turn of events has taught him a few things about Moslems.
Posted by: Mean Kevin at November 30, 2005 01:08 PM (k7DCz)
Then again, its the oil without which our civilisation will disappear almost overnight.Oil is the oxygen of our carefully created society of equals. A military presence near its source is vital to our survival. As I say, in my opinion the Americans are too timid. But if the oil is ever cut off Im sure that would of necessity change, as all cornered creatures pull-out-the-stops when survival is at stake.
As for the Futile Four, my reason for relishing their self-inflicted predicament is that it may jog some sense into the idiots who refer to the islamofascists as "freedom fighters", like Norman Kembers friend interviewed on Channel 4 News in the UK.
Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 04:37 PM (bTz6c)
"Why not use the ring? Let us use it against them. Long has my father, the steward of Gondor, kept the foes of Mordor at bay. By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe. Give Gondor the weapon of the enemy." -Boromir
Posted by: dcb at November 30, 2005 05:02 PM (6ffkR)
Posted by: Jeff K. at November 30, 2005 08:40 PM (JmmcU)
Posted by: Jeff at November 30, 2005 08:42 PM (JmmcU)
"We can play in our streets they are safe to walk and play."
What, the streets in Vancouver, where my various in-laws won't let their kids out to play but make them stay in the backyard and visible, or in Toronto, where - well you know. Of course, I live in Edmonton, not so bad here, but it is in Evil Alberta.
"I got nothing against the American Citizen its who you allow to be voted in with all his crooks and henchmen."
As opposed to the Liberal Party, led by Jean Chrétien and Paul Martin (sorry, I forgot, Martin was "exonerated", wasn't he . . .)
"He lied to you all and the rest of the world about Iraq. You people were fooled twice now."
While Canada's doing so beautifully, wasting its reputation as an effective peacekeeper (except in - NO! - Afghanistan), and with major Canadian gov't figures being implicated in nat'l and UN scandals. And the charming Khadr family, representative of all that is good and right and Canadian (and wrong about Canadian immigration policy). Yet Canadians keep putting the Liberal Party back in - "please sir, may I have another?" Better that than "scary" Conservatives, I suppose.
I'm sure there are few things worse than self-satisfied Americans like myself - or many self-satisfied Canadians whom I know - but I would definitely put on that list self-satisfied American "refugees" who just love, love, love Canada. Well, I hope you like it now, 'cause in 10-20 years it's going to be a whole different country/countries. And I ain't just talking about Québec.
(BTW, I do not grant your premises, except for the purposes of argument.)
As a Christian, I hope these men are saved, and are well and safe. As a U.S. taxpayer, I hope they develop a little more respect for our armed forces.
There are some out-of-bounds comments here. I'm sure that those of you protesting these also go to places like Democratic Underground and the Daily Kos to protest the horrible, nasty comments made about the President, members of the Administration, our armed forces, Americans in general, etc. . . . right?
from a cranky (today, anyway) American bride in Edmonton Alberta
Posted by: Meg Q at November 30, 2005 08:46 PM (RDvz3)
So far, the leaders of a number of nations have possessed the ultimate Ring like power of nuclear weapons for half a century and yet I haven't noticed any of them turn into Gollum. The leaders of all the first era nuclear powers, the US, Britain, France and even, ultimately, the Soviet Union, have duly stepped down to permit a democratic succession. Strangely, it is the leaders of tin-pot banana-republics who cling to such power as they have. Robert Mugabe does a very good impression of Gollum! ( Will someone please ask him why he has a Hitler moustache? ).
Posted by: booyakka at November 30, 2005 08:58 PM (qgGpU)
Hate when innocents get to face the wrath of
fundamentalists.
Also recently an Indian truck driver was killed in
Afghanistan......my condolences to his family.
I hope the authorities succeed in freeing these
hostages.
Posted by: freedom at December 01, 2005 12:45 AM (SGJn/)
The point is, there are thousands of innocent kidnap victims in Iraq who we usually hear nothing about, mainly Iraqis taken hostage by gangs for ransom money.But these particular Foolish Four are certainly not innocent. They walked right into the situation with the intention of gathering "evidence" against our forces, in other words, to help our enemies ( I dont buy it that anyone can be neutral in war, even the Swiss, Swedish and Irish in WW2 were only superficially neutral but in practice helped NAZI Germany ). I is therefore ironic that the charge by the kidnappers that they were "spying", so often levelled at Westerners around the world, is this time actually true! It would be profoundly sickening if some of the soldiers who they went there to gather "evidence" to use against were expected to risk their lives rescuing these men! Does the hypocrisy of the left know no bounds?
Posted by: booyakka at December 01, 2005 12:45 PM (ESuGp)
And then lie about it.
Posted by: Lefty at December 01, 2005 01:53 PM (pIlM1)
Watching people consumed by their own hate is pretty funny. This poster seems to be a mixture of hate-consumed and adolescent as well. Hilarious. Mommy didn't give him a hug that morning I guess.
Yo, IM - you're a loser pal! Hahaha
Posted by: angryflower at December 01, 2005 02:03 PM (Bss6w)
Posted by: angryflower at December 01, 2005 02:05 PM (Bss6w)
It may interest you to know that these four hostages are well aware of the numbers of innocent locals being kidnapped by armed militias not only in Iraq but also in Hebron, Columbia, and Mexico. If you run a Google search on their website for the term "kidnappings," you'll find all manner of press releases, reports, and first-hand accounts of such atrocities.
Here, I'll make it easy for you: (http://www.google.com/u/ChristianPeacemakerTeams?q=kidnappings&sa=Google+Search&domains=cpt.org&sitesearch=cpt.org)
Foreign nationals have the luxury of leaving when the going gets hot. Local citizens do not. In an act of solidarity with the innocent citizens of Iraq, CPT has chosen to stay behind and continue the difficult task of putting a human face on the day-to-day difficulties experienced by average Iraqis.
Please, if you're going to call these 4 men hypocrites, take the time to educate yourself about them and their work. You may be surprised to find that, while they bring different methods to the table, they're working hard to achieve the very same things.
Posted by: Rob at December 01, 2005 05:49 PM (vPEvo)
The simple fact is that when westerners go missing in Iraq its plastered all over the news (and i accept this an unavoidable bias), but what you don't hear about is how [insert number] Iraqi's were shot by lone western mercenaries, or how over 20,000 Iraqi civilians have died in the conflict.. All these guys were doing was helping out those who are being overlooked- raising awareness. (afterall.. whatever happened to Afghanistan? I bet everyone thinks the war is over and everything is rosey and there is no conflict.. but what do you actually know).
Maybe if some people were better educated and understood the muslim culture theyre wouldnt be so much hostility and fear towards middle-eastern countries and arabs in general. For example when people say that muslims treat women as less than livestock.. based on what?? Because they cover them in veils? thats based on western sensibilities which says women should be able to dress anyway they want.. well if your raised a Muslim, you learn that the veil is to protect women from Horny men who choose partners based on looks etc.. is it repression? No, it isnt. Its a different culture. Understand it first.
Having said that, dont look at this post as being "unpatriotic".. the MAJORITY of the soldiers are undoubtly doing a fine job, and it sucks they flak for bad calls by their superiors.. that the 4 workers went over there was definitely ignorant of the circumstances, and it sucks that the soldiers may have to go in harms way to rescue them.. but I hope they survive, why the hell would anyone want death on people who are trying to alleviate prejudice and ignorance.. (your reply: let them die, they shouldve known! THEYRE ALL TERRORISTS OVER THERE!)
Posted by: James at December 03, 2005 06:11 AM (bfemJ)
Posted by: George Ramos at December 03, 2005 05:04 PM (Zm6ZW)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 03, 2005 08:30 PM (VDGim)
Posted by: punk_rocker_5579 at December 09, 2005 07:17 PM (ZAwmQ)
that are made against these four men about being spies are made without any evidence or proof.
Where is the lenghty and fair trial? Where are the witnesses? Show us the facts that leave no questions or doubt of guilt! This is just a cover up to justify making a political statement and hopefully get away with blackmail and shedding blood. Nothing new here! God's Word tells us that our hearts are "deceitful and desperately wicked". We are all sinners! Compared to people that murder like this we tend to feel pretty good.
Let me tell you, that no matter how good we are, or how many good deeds we do, we all miss the
boat when we are compared to the righteousness of God. God demands perfection if we are to
stand acceptable before Him. The Ten Commandments show us that we are incapable of keeping the law thus, incapable of perfection and incapable of being acceptable before God. Our penalty for being proven guilty...death and eternal separation from God! As was commanded by the law given to mankind, a blood sacrifice is required. Jesus Christ wilfully laid down His life and shed His blood at the hands of mankind for a reason. He was the FINAL sacrifice for our sin. By faith, accepting the blood of Christ as the only sacrifice capable of covering our sin thus, making us acceptable before God (who is the perfect Judge), and declaring us "righteous and acceptable" before Him.
I'm afraid that Satan has deceived the Muslims, just as he has other "religious" people, and atheists (that believe there is no God), that have distorted the simple truth of God's Word. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and even rose from the dead to show us that He is who He said He was. No other "god", Mohammed or Budda, has ever done that! We can't earn our salvation. We are all born into this world with a sin nature, capable of the most horrendous and hideous acts. Be honest with yourself...are you perfect? I know I'm not! Like putting on a robe, by faith I have accepted the blood of Christ as the paid penalty for my sin and can now, with confidence, stand before God, declared righteous, and accepted in His sight forever!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I do not know the four kidnapped men. But the reason I believe they were in Iraq was to reach out to those in need, showing a love that is motivated by the kind of love God showed us.
Posted by: DJ at December 13, 2005 02:39 PM (9K2ce)
Their words do indeed paint a picture of the attitude of their hearts, which is as you say quoted in the Bible “deceitful and desperately wicked". I always struggled to understand the Bible until I read a book called “The Stranger On The Road To Emmaus†by John Cross. Lets face it, the Bible is not a user friendly book but John Cross explained the entire message of the Bible in one, easy to read, book. It was not specific to any one particular religious group, and I liked that. It simply explained the Bible the way it was meant to be understood. It kept things in context with the culture and times that the Scriptures were written which is where we so often run into problems. I know now that the Bible speaks the truth about who God is and also reveals the truth about us.
Like anything, it takes faith on our part to believe it but it makes far more sense than anything else that I have learned so far (Including Islam). I’m not a gambling man which is why I chose to accept the message of the Bible that Christ paid the penalty for my sins and died in my place. The Bible speaks more about a place called Hell, where all unbelieving people end up, than it does Heaven, and if this was true and I chose not to believe it, and I ended up in Hell, then I would be the biggest fool that ever walked this earth. I have friends that say “Hell is here on earthâ€, meaning the
crap that goes on that effects them, but the Bible makes that very clear that it’s not here on earth.
Those terrorists that are wrapped up in their Islamic belief think that dying for the cause will grant them direct access to Paradise. Boy, are they deceived! They are bound by works and rules. Any religion that promotes us having to do certain things, in a certain way, at a certain time, we “might†just make it to Heaven, has missed the boat! It’s not about what we can do to earn our salvation, it’s all about what Christ has done for us. He is the one that saves us from eternal Hell simply by accepting, by faith, what He did for us. The “Stranger On The Road To Emmaus†book explained how, in the Old Testament, God required a “blood sacrifice†as payment for sin. Everybody had to obey this requirement and make this sacrifice once a year in order to enter into Heaven. The Bible says “...without shedding of blood is no remission.†(Heb. 9:22) In other words an animal sacrifice had to be made, it’s blood shed in order for sin to be covered. That ritual ended with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, when He was lifted up on the cross and took our sin upon Himself and shed His own blood for us. He said, during His last moments, that, “it is finished†(Jn. 19:30) No more are we under the requirement of making sacrifices. Christ was the final sacrifice to cover all sin.
DJ, we may be ridiculed for “preaching†or being “long winded†but that would not be new. Truth hurts when people are convicted. People are proud and want to do things the way they want. They want to be free to do their own thing and believe what they want...and they will. God gave us all a free will and with that comes responsibility and consequence for our actions. We will be held accountable before God and are totally responsible for the choices we make. It is our personal decision as to what consequences we face. I had to humble myself and recognize that I could not do anything to earn salvation. No amount of good deeds, church attendance, giving to the needy, enduring hardship, or martyrdom would ever be sufficient for me to gain access into Heaven. The Bible tells me, “Not of works, lest any man should boastâ€. (Eph. 2:9) I will not be able to boast about what I did when I am in Heaven...it was totally about what Jesus Christ did for me/us. It is
God who deserves all the glory and honour for the mercy He showed on us!
Those terrorists will individually be held responsible before God for the kidnappings and unless they embrace the simple truth of God’s Word (not the deceitful Quran) and accept what Christ has done for them personally they will have regrets that last for all eternity, separated from God and Heaven.
Posted by: Sid at December 15, 2005 09:35 AM (3gfGT)
Posted by: Jack Altman at December 19, 2005 08:41 AM (/bqIu)
20 December 2005: Germans buy release of hostage Susanne Osthoff by freeing hijacker and murderer of US Navy Diver
Did Germany release the murderer of US Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem in order to gain the release of German Susanne Osthoff, who had been held hostage by terrorists in Iraq since November 25?
Credible sources in the Egyptian government, who were involved in the negotiations, have confirmed that this is the case.
Earlier today (Tuesday), it was announced that Mohamed Ali Hammadi had been released by the German government. Hammadi had been convicted and sentenced to life without parole by a German court for his role in the hijacking of TWA flight 847.
Robert Dean Stethem was a 23 year old steelworker and diver with the US Navy when he boarded a flight from Athens to Rome on June 14, 1985, at the conclusion of his assignment in the Middle East.
But ten minutes after takeoff, events took a fatal turn for Stethem. Two men, Hizbullah terrorists, stormed the cockpit with guns. One pulled a pin to a hand grenade, and forced the pilot to divert to Beirut.
The terrorists quickly learned that Stethem was in the US Navy, and was severely beaten. He was finally shot in the head, and his body dumped onto the tarmac in Beirut.
It would be 17 days before the remaining hostages were released.
Hammadi, the brother of Hizbullah leader Abdul Hadi Hammadi, was arrested two years after the event by German authorities. Three others implicated in the hijacking remain on the FBI Most Wanted Terrorist list: Imad Mugniyah, Ali Atwa, and Hassan Izz-Al-Din.
In addition to the hijacking of TWA flight 897, Mugniyah has been tied to kidnappings and bombings throughout the world over the past two decades, including the following:
April 18, 1983 bombing of the United States embassy in Beirut, which killed 63 people including 17 Americans
October 23, 1983 simultaneous truck bombings against the French paratroopers and US Marine killing 58 French soldiers and 241 Marines.
September 20, 1984, he attacked the US embassy annex building.
Linked to the numerous kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut through the 1980s – some were killed, some by beheading, and a few were eventually released
March 17, 1992 bombings of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires Argentina, which killed 29
July 1994 bombing of the AMIA cultural building in in Buenos Aires Argentina, killing 86 people
Orchestrated the 2000 abductions of three Israeli soldiers in the southern part of Lebanon
Abduction of Israeli Colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum.
There are striking similarities between terrorism of 20 years ago at the hands of Mugniyah, and the practices of the present-day terrorists in Iraq.
It is very likely that Mugniyah, who remains at large, is heavily involved in the leadership of the Iraqi “insurgencyâ€.
It is not surprising, then, that attempts were made to force the release of Mugniyah’s compatriot and partner in crime Hammadi by kidnapping a German citizen in Iraq. Since Hammadi’s apprehension in 1987, there have been numerous attempts by Hizbullah and their allied groups to free Hammadi by exchanging him for German hostages in Lebanon in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s.
The release of Hammadi shortly after the release of German hostage Susanne Osthoff is more than coincidence.
Mugniyah and his murdering thugs have finally brokered the release of Hammadi.
Robert Stethem was not the first person murdered by Hammadi and company. He almost certainly will not be the last.
The man who murdered a US Navy diver in cold blood is free - free to kill again.
Posted by: IanT at December 20, 2005 04:33 PM (0L1j/)
It seems at least the majority of these events circle around Mohammed Ubaid al-Kubaisi and Abdel Salem al-Kubaisi of the Islamic Clerics Association at the Umm al-Qura Mosque in Baghdad. They're the ones usually involved in attaining the "hostages'" release, and usually cry foul whenever they're not given the credit they believe they deserve. Secondly, the stories that swirled around in Japanese press regarding hostages Junpei Yasuda, Nobutaka Watanabe, Soichiro Koriyama, Noriaki Imai, and Nohoko Takoto were rife with accusations of fraud and bewilderment why they were even there. All were known peace activists. Additionally, the Italian journalists Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, both also well-known activists, have many similarities as does Giuliana Sgrena to the current hostage situation involving these four. I suggest anyone here take a close look themselves at these cases and approach them with a completely open mind -- liberal, conservative, or objective.
If these are all hoaxes, and especially linked in some way, then I sense there needs to be a wider reckoning. Regardless the ends, they don't necessarily justify the means if they're staged. And if they are staged, they're doing immense harm to those I serve with and the Iraqi people themselves by delaying our withdrawal and rebuilding efforts.
As I indicated above, I am a current military member. I am proud of my service and love the people I serve with, believe in a strong (and knowledgeable) defense, and spend a lot of my time trying to promote understanding among cultures. So please, for those of you out there who judge us as hateful war-mongers, be careful: We are trying our best with minimal assistance to make the most of a messy situation in Iraq and give the Iraqis all we can. We are not trying to take anything away from them but give them the freedom to choose how they live, so we DON'T have to fight again in that part of the world. Lastly, this: If the Iraqis didn't truly want us there, and especially felt we were specifically targeting the innocent, then the entire country (including Kurdistan) would be in flames.
I am a 33-year-old veteran of two wars, so naivete goes out the window. I believe what we're doing in Iraq is ultimately good and will bear fruit -- for Iraqis and all others who benefit from their prosperity. (I give you Kurdistan as a shining example.) I do not love war, but see it as an ugly but necessary means to an end when it comes to dictatorial regimes like Hussein's. (Just think how long Iraqis would have suffered once Saddam passed the reins to his even more twisted sons.) So, 'baby-killer?' No, unless you count Saddam's babies.
Posted by: DistantSent at December 23, 2005 12:40 PM (0FZ2t)
Nicely said! And thank you for being there for all of us.
Here is a quote from a Catholic newspaper in the US which astounds me by the way it describes these captives.
"A prominent Canadian Catholic activist was among four civilians kidnapped by militants in Baghdad, Iraq, where they were advocating peaceful resistance to the U. S. occupation of Iraq."
Let me repeat the key words: advocating resistance to the U.S.
Posted by: maica at December 24, 2005 08:18 PM (MDPFu)
Posted by: Smokey Jones at January 18, 2006 05:23 AM (zFLIG)
Posted by: Bulbman at March 12, 2006 03:00 AM (MKQ1u)
Posted by: endangerous.com at March 17, 2006 01:16 AM (Sp53B)

The Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) organization has confirmed to The Jawa Report in an e-mail that Norman Kember, an unidentified Canadian, and two unidentified Americans were abducted from that group's Iraq peace delegation.
The Christian pacifist organization declined to name the three other hostages at this time.
In a seperate statement released today by the organization, the CPT said:
CPT has been present in Iraq since October, 2002. The Team's work has focused on documenting and focusing public attention on detainee abuses and connecting citizens of Iraq to local and international human rights organizations. Iraqi friends and human rights workers have welcomed the Team as a non-violent, independent presence and asked that the Team tell the stories of Iraqis.So, the CPT would stand on principle and allow their representatives in Iraq to die rather than risk the lives of the terrorists that took them in a rescue operation? A perverse sense of Christian morality in my book.In a "Statement of Conviction," the long-term Team members stated that they "are aware of the many risks both Iraqis and internationals currently face," and affirmed that the risks did not outweigh their purpose in remaining. They express the hope that "in loving both friends and enemies and by intervening non-violently to aid those who are systematically oppressed, we can contribute in some small way to transforming this volatile situation."
CPT does not advocate the use of violent force to save our lives should we be kidnapped, held hostage, or caught in the middle of a conflict situation.
Advice to CPT from a long-time hostage activist: trying to convince the hostage takers that you are on their side may work, depending on what type of group abducted your representatives. Arab nationalist, non-Salaafist jihadis, and Shia jihad groups may be convinced using this method but only if a simultaneous public campaign from clerics is undertaken. To do this you must release the names of the other victims.
Of course, if this was simply a criminal act then the above should be undertaken in addition to ransom negotiations. Many criminals who engage in hostage taking of Westerners do so with the justification (backed by certain Islamic traditions) that the ransoming of infidels is permitted. Shame from influential clerics can go along way in convincing criminals to release hostages.
However, if it was Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq, Ansar al-Sunna, or any related Salaafist jihad organization then this will have no effect. The only hope would be a rescue. Fortunately if the hostages are located a rescue will be attempted, even over the objections of CPT.
UPDATE: Via Captain Ed, we learn that Norman Kember was a family friend of blogger Hammerswing. As mentioned in our earlier post, we join Hammerswing with our prayers for Kember, even if we think he was a misguided idealist.
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As wrote if these are insurgents or Iraqi criminal elements you may have a chance to negotiate, if this is the terrorists a rescue is the only chance they have.
If previous hostage statements of torture are anyting to go by they'll probably be thankful a QRF put two in the heart, and one in the head of Team Jihad.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 09:29 AM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Rusty at November 29, 2005 09:54 AM (JQjhA)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 10:04 AM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Rusty at November 29, 2005 10:12 AM (JQjhA)
He and the other morons are either willing dhimmis trying to help the enemy by staging their kidnapping, or they're simply too stupid to be trusted with their own welfare; either way, they should be left with the kidnappers. People have to learn that actions have consequences.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 12:06 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: A friend of Norman's at November 29, 2005 12:42 PM (z2MBG)
I don't normally disagree with you, much but:
If someone puts themselves in harm's way without cause, and without regard for the hardship it would cause for others, i.e. their families and those who would have to come rescue them
The left would argue that applies to people working in the warzone, like Roy Hallum, or Black Water operators that I talked about the other day, unfortunately motives are interchangable from each side of the coin.
Friend of Norman:
Let's not forget, it was military action in Iraq that made Norman go, and military action that made the place so much more unstable.
Ah yes, I remember the Iraqi children flying kites, and the outdoor coffee shops!
Oh, and something to do with torturing nationals with Sulphuric acid, and people being hung on meathooks, but my goodness though the kites! and coffee!
I think you've mistook Iraq for a romance novel, Iraq was kept stable by Saddam Hussein killing whole families, and his usage of the secret police to spy and kill any suspected dissidents.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 01:33 PM (CcXvt)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 02:07 PM (0yYS2)
As to the helpful remarks about Augustine, Anabaptist theologies reject Augustine, pleading the New Testament as their only creed.
Posted by: Jenny at November 29, 2005 04:09 PM (ywZa8)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 05:26 PM (0yYS2)
After reading your comments it's pretty easy to see how gullible people could be suggested to go to Iraq, to preach "peace" and catalog "atrocities".
Let's dissect:
cataloging the tortures, secret murders, and other abuses that went on in Iraq - first under Hussein and then under the Coalition - what George Bush refers to as "collateral damage".
Can you show an example of willful targetting of civilians? Wars always have civilian casualties. All the JDAM's and the laser guided missiles we have cannot avoid it, but it sure beats the "blanket" bombings of WWII, and Vietnam era though right? The fact the United States and most of the coalition have built weapons to minimize civilian deaths is evidently lost on you, I'm sure you prefer the enemies weapons, indiscriminate and murderous.
They also assist in aiding Iraqi families find their loved ones that the coalition troops "disappear", which could be anybody suspectd of nationalism or simply of having a little money they want to confiscate.
Robbery eh? did you base that on the documentary you watched entitled "Three Kings" ?
but to those of us who oppose robbery, torture, and murder, it is worthwhile.
You know if this was a democrat site, and people said they believed in the war, they'd ask why if you believed in it so much, why are you not there?
Do you not oppose this "robbery", "torture" and "murder"
fortunately you're not, so I'll take it at face value and ask
What does making yourself a target, and endangering the lives of coalition forces, and Iraqi nationals accomplish?
If the U.S Special forces found your "friends" tomorrow, and wished to rescue them, you wouldn't want them rescued if it meant killing those whom wished them harm?
That to me is unbelievable, although it is very easy to be cavalier with your comrades lives, when your neck is not on the block, so to speak.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 06:44 PM (CcXvt)
Oh, like the U.S. military then, who were already prosecuting the criminals who engaged in the practices photographed long before the bed-wetters in the press got their hands on the photos.
Posted by: Jim in Chicago at November 29, 2005 06:45 PM (sTciT)
What were they doing in Iraq? Helping our troops???????????
Sometimes when you make your own bed you have to lay on it.
Posted by: greyrooster at November 29, 2005 06:50 PM (ZaAd/)
Posted by: Angered at November 29, 2005 08:49 PM (z2MBG)
Good luck on the oppose the notion of someone pointing a gun at their heads.
With the people that's holding them, they will inevitably need it. Either way, United States citizens will have their ass on the line to rescue them, even if they "appose" that too.
Posted by: dave at November 29, 2005 10:10 PM (CcXvt)
He is a fool, nonetheless. As for his sincerity, I never had a doubt. But they will negociate with a tyrant ad infinium while the people are being murdered, gassed, mutilated, raped, tortured, and humiliated.
In other words, they are totally ineffectual. They accomphish nothing but put others at risk, for what? They would better spend their time praying. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. This is where they could be effective, but alas, this is just my belief.
Posted by: jesusland joe at November 29, 2005 10:15 PM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 11:33 PM (0yYS2)
Be careful, Improbulus. That entire argument is so easily reversed if you choose to classify the US military as "murdering scum" which, I assure you, the Iraqi insurgents do. How many innocent men, women, children, and soldiers must die before YOU get it? That's the trouble with "us vs. them" dichotomies and debates about good and evil. You inherently place yourself on the "good" side. Well, guess what - Al Qaeda thinks of themselves as the good guys, too. If the only way to confront "evil" is with force, then we're all doomed because every last one of us somehow ends up being somebody else's evil. You might as well launch the nukes now and put this world out of its misery. Oh, and by the way, make sure you point one at you and yours because my gerbil thinks you're evil.
Norman and his group present an alternate solution. One where we don't all die. Sadly, it took a threat to his life for you to read this. I'm not sure what it will take to make you understand.
Posted by: Rob at November 30, 2005 08:08 PM (Wl7Nx)
IF this is so, look for very public and nasty executions when the (intentionally) impossible demands are not met by Dec.8th.
Posted by: Val at December 02, 2005 08:52 PM (OF00N)
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