1 It is time for all arabs and muslims to be "eliminated by one storm."

these filthy creatures make me sick to my stomach

2 Ok victory warning #1 and don't feel picked on IM gets warned once in a while too. We know IM and he does at least contribute once in a while in between rants.

3 Victory, FYI, the Iranians aren't arabs.

4 I've never been warned, but I wouldn't give a damn if I was or not. If it weren't for me, this blog would be about as spicy as oatmeal.

5 Amadinnerjacket is just begging for a BFH upside the head.

6 The inbred Bush half brother surely will not curry any favor from the international community by continuing in that vein of remarks!

7 The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, propose to the international community that the state of israel is moved to Europe, particularly in Germany and Austria, continent and countries where from originates the majority of the inhabitants of israel, rather than the middle east, its current location, where obviously, it never has been integrated with the local populations.
This proposal stands to reason and contrasts with the insane idea to establish a Jewish state in the middle of Arab populations. One would have liked that it was considered a few tens of years behind, at the time where the situation with the middle East was not as degraded as it is it now and where the plan of occupation of the Palestinian territories (colonization) was less advanced. It would have been possible to organize the return of the Jews in their countries of origin as returned the other deportees of Europe there. One cannot sees indeed why the Arab populations of Palestine must support the Israeli occupation whereas the persons who caused Jewish persecutions are not originating in these regions! It is completely absurd and unjust and the argument of the Iranian president is from this point of view, unstoppable.
Now, the conclusions he draws from that are debatable, to wish the end of israel is not the solution, as to wish the end of Palestinian by colonizing them is not either. His remarks have the merit to draw the attention on the slow genocide of the Palestinian people. The occident believed it could get rid of the Jewish problem by putting it on the back of arab populations. What a historical error! Even if arabs living after the war were more flexible than those nowadays, it were certainly the worst idea of the century to establish them in an environment which was to them in all points foreign.
Then, is it possible to put things in order and to put an end to this population transplant against nature? Undoubtedly, one will need a voluntarist policy of the international community which must act confronted to the failure of the state of israel. Counting on the deterioration of the situation does not lead to anything, one does not make people bend when they defend their territory, the Israelis learned it at their expense and American in Iraq too.
The Israelis are in front of a wall, they created places of concentration for the Palestinian population to control the one they could not deport, and don’t know what to do now. A situation which should be familiar for them but that they seem to discover each day so much the improvisation of their actions is striking, without pun. They cannot from now on live any more without their enemy. The enemy is necessary. He justifies the use of the force, he legitimates the expansion of the colonies, he replaces any discussion. There never was negotiation between israel and Palestine, only confrontation, the invasion of Palestine carried in germ a final tragedy, and it will be tragic.

8 Who wants to to bet this turd won't nuke Isreal?

9 There we go again reciting history inserting our own "start date" and working from there. The history in Palestinian lands did not begin with the Jewish "invasion" after the war. It did not begin with the Muslim invasion in the 7th century and it did not begin with the Christian presence in the first century. But the fact still remains that the Christians and the Jews there (or anywhere in the ME for that matter) are the only ones willing to "get along".

Yes, the European's resettling of the Jews in Israel was two-fold; to protect the Jews from the deadly anti-semitism in Europe and to also rid themselves of their presence. But that is not where the Palestinian's history of conflict began. Funny how no one ever brings up the centuries of despotic outside rule over Palestinian land before the creation of Israel. I suppose that was okay? Because they weren't Jews?

10 Perhaps Ahmadinejad doesn't know that there is no such thing as a "palestinian".

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity."

~~Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO, Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977

Ahmadinejad should be informed that the jews, on the other hand. have been in palestine continuously for the last 3,000 years. Jerusalem has been majority Jewish for most of that history, including recent history.

and

"One always finds in Palestine Arabs who have been in the country only a few weeks or a few months...Since they are themselves strangers in a strange land, they are the loudest to cry: 'Out with the Jews!...Amongst them are to be found representatives of every Arab country: Arabs from Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, the Sudan and Iraq."

(Ladislas Farago, Palestine at the Crossroads (New York: Putnam 1937) p17

Most of today's palestinians (including the refugees) are descendants of those recent arab immigrants. Palestinian claim to the Holy land "since time immemorial" is not historical, it's political. It is a lie.

The term "palestinian" in reference to Arabs goes back only to the 1960s (before that, during the British mandate, the term applied to both jews and arabs living in palestine). That's because there is no such thing as a "palestinian" nation. According to Turkish census numbers, Palestine was a sparsely populated, remote backwater of the Ottoman Empire when the first zionists began arriving in the late 19th century (Jerusalem numbered only 15,000 souls in the early 20th century. And it was a majority jewish city). Only then did Trans-Jordanian arabs begin to arrive in greater numbers to take advantage of the economic opportunities the Jews brought with them (same as today!).

The concept of arab palestinian "nationhood" goes back only to the 1960s. It is a political fabrication.

Statement by Ahmed Shuqeiri, to the UN Security Council in 1949

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

~~Statement by Ahmed Shuqeiri, to the UN Security Council in 1949

11 Patrick, your words of bulls**t won't work here either....

12 Time to turn TERRAN into a smoking crater

13 Time to TEAR INto TERRAN!

1 Tick . . . Tick . . . Tick . . .

1 A greater truth was never expressed.

2 I love Hanson. He has a great mind. If I wasn't happily married, I'd be batting my eyelashes furiously at him.

3 Me too Oyster.

1 I am so now afraid of Iran.

2 I am now going to play missile command why because I have it.

3 b

1 All these new weapons systems coming from the Well of the Last Imam are about to overwhelm the World. Oh, woe is me, what shall we do?

Ah, I know, ask the Kiwi killer, Sonic(PBUH). He is sure to advocate a capitulation to the magic carpet, the torqued torpedo, and the hide and seek missles. Yeah, that will save us.

2 Joe, do not offend Sonic (PBUH), the mighty Hedgehog of Doom!

3 In Iraq you are losing to a bunch of guys with AK 47s and IEDs.

Just like in South East Asia 30 years ago, no-one really needs super-weapons to beat the US Army.

4 Dammit, I still want to know why that guy's sitting on top of the Flying Doomboat in a lawnchair.

5 On cue, Sonic to demonstrate his complete ignorance of history and current events. Dude, Vietnam was lost in the halls of Congress.

And yeah, we're losing in Iraq, just like Arthur lost to the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Stupid effing kiwi.

6 In Iraq you are losing to a bunch of guys with AK 47s and IEDs.

Ah, asymmetric warfare -- history has shown it can bring any mighty army to it's knee's, with attacks against supply lines, and it's daily kill rate, it's an excepted fact that guerilla warfare is military kryptonite.

Well except by people like Sonic, but then he is hypnotized by twinkling lights, and the hologram on his state issued Gyro check.

7 Remindsme of the Germans in WWII who had some wishfull thingking about their "Wunderwaffen".

Hey! Sonic! If we shut down media and Kessel Bagdad we have the power to clean it out completly of everything we want. So, dream on!

8 Sonic,

our GIs never lost a single engagement in Vietnam, nor in Iraq.

The only people our military has ever lost to is the public relations war against the Liberal-controlled media.

9 One of the things that sucks about Vietnam is that just as we were figuring out how to effectively fight the VC and beat them at their own game Congress said it was time to turn everything over to ARVN, who screwed things up royally.

I have trouble being afraid of the airboat. It looks like a kit-built personal seaplane to me. Even if it wasn't supposed to be stealth, that engine on top would still probably have a bigger radar profile than the entire rest of the aircraft.

With all these Iranian weapons announcements I sense something like Saddam's 'perfect' GPS jammers that were supposed to stop us from dropping our GPS bombs...which we destroyed with GPS guided bombs

10 Iranian old civilization has survived thousands
of years in middle east battle ground and
will survive for thousands more to come!!!
Baby americans should be carefull before
any stupid act of aggresion if they dont
want to see an early dooms day...

11 The rag heads are playing up their toys for their people. These things are so useless that it's funny. What happens when the lawn chair comes loose, you just switch to the rug. Looks to me like it would make a nice target for a CWIS.

Yehaw, go get them. When the JASAMs start arriving, even the camels will run.

12 To idiot posing as Jesus,

"Iranian old civilization" is dying, pal. Adapt or get out of the way.

13 >>>and can launch missiles with precise targeting while moving

So launching missiles while moving is new and revolutionary? It makes you wonder what they had to do before to before.

14 Iranian is to civilization as pig is to riding mount. You can actually saddle and ride a pig, but it's not a horse, and you shouldn't call it one.

15 If we were really losing in Iraq, then there would be no need for Sonic to keep informing us, would there?

And to the guy calling himself Jesus. I'm highly offended, I'm going to torch an embassy now.

16 That thing is slower than a Sopwith Camel. And exactly where does it carry these precision missles?

17 What the naysayers like Sonic fail to realise is that if the US (and other Western nations) fails in the Middle East, the ramifications will be global. It won't matter if your home is in a non-threatening country whose only claim to fame is an over-population of sheep and mediocre dairy products.

18 It's funny how Iran is suddenly claiming to have all sorts of neat weapons that wouldn't make a difference even if they really existed and worked well. We can crush them like a bug regardless, and the sooner the better I say.

19 Something about this picture was nagging at the back of my mind and finally surfaced when someone said "kit plane", I remember seeing this as project in Popular Mechanics or something years ago. I need to search the back issues for their torpedo and missile projects.

20 Hah, now that you mention it Kyle, I remember that issue of popular mechanics with the seaplane too.

21 Forget about the military effectiveness of these vengence weapons.

Pay attention to the mentality of throwing money at these schemes.

There are many other projects beyond these.

Iran is in a hot-war spending mode. Never forget that.

Their war has long been started. It's what's hanging up Baghdad politics.

BTW that super-cativating torpedo is designed for a snap shot nuclear warhead. That's why a straight course is quite acceptable. It would be placed at a choke point. Upon command, it would race to target with a weapon so powerful that manuever or counter action is meaningless.

Iran is not going to be able to bring it to sea, but she doesn't have to.

A sea-skimming profile is in fact very hard to detect. Just because a plane is slow does not mean that it can't penetrate. During the Korean War we had to bring back a prop plane to get rid of a night raiding all-wood BIPLANE that did not ping the radar.

Hiding the engines under the wing root creates a VERY stealthy machine. With a little Russian technical assistance, they could have a real 'sleeper'.

Pairing up a nuclear, ultra-high speed torpedo with flying boat would create a viable threat to a carrier. Our close in defenses can't stop the torpedo once launched. Catching a blacked out stealth plane riding just above the water is quite a challenge.

Even the 'crackpot' German late-war schemes had technical merit. The ME-163 did shoot down our bombers. Given just a little more time to perfect it, it would have been unstoppable. Practically a piloted bullet, it was.

You have to be concerned about a fanatic fatalistic cult that so prizes martial suicide. What if the Iranians just start ramming our pilots? Ramming tactics were used in WWII by Japan, Russia and Germany against bombers.

Figure F-4 Phantom II's to be a serious threat in this way. Running on after-burners that baby can really go.

The mullahs have played their cards very well until now. I have to respect them. We're absolutely NOT dealing with idiot-retards. Nothing is certain in war, especially nuclear war. Let's not get overconfident.

They already have the bomb. The questions are: how many and where?

22 I hate to see these future contracts for oil climbing, but if we are going to take care of Iran, I hope we do so soon, and do it so well they can not be a problem for twenty years. We have been at war for thirty years with these guys, and the MSM has not reported it.

I.M., that first post of yours was great. It was very funny.

23 Iran's fancy boat is a rip-off of Flarecraft Corp (Westport, CT) vehicle and about as useless... not at all high-tech and certianly not original.

24 You have got used to killing innocent, unarmed civilians with extra sophisticated WMDs
but world will see how arrogant american babies
will shit in their pants when facing a
real fight.

25 Now you may ask yourself, why in the world is Bush planning war against Iran when the war against Iraq is going so badly?

The answer is, the Bush folks are so deluded that they think Bush's reelection was a vote not only for the Iraq War but for the neoconservatives who hatched it.

And those neoconservatives are in a hurry to accomplish their goals before Bush's four years are up. "This is the last hurrah," ,
Delusion plus recklessness plus enormous power is going to equal disaster in Iran, even more so than in Iraq.

26 tito, I thought you died a few years ago in Yugoslavia. Well, you left there anyway, and look what a mess you made. Islamists everywhere, chopping off heads, and then the US had to come in there and rescue the sorry bastards.

Hell, I knew we were bombing the wrong side all along.

27 look all you dickheads america has no chance agianst iran. and if they attack it will start a world war 3 witch will start with russians attacking america unexpectedly so don't get your hopes up america isn't that stupid. or are they????

28 I am a patriotic person. If the US decides to go to Iran, we will be crippling ourselves. I served in the Armed Forces and am an ex-serviceman. Iran’s national capabilities in the region are up to par with ours. TYhey have the best military force in the region, are modernized, and an educated nation. They possess weapons made to take down our battle ships for which we have no defense. They have an intrnational intellegence and spy network. Military consultants and experts all over the world, including in America and NATO, predict catastrophy for the US military and economy. The world will stop for this war and both the Mid-East and the rest of the world will be destabilized and in up roar. Not only will we be demoralized by the Iranians military capabilities but we will not have enough oil because the Iranian military can close the Persian Gulf. We will lose pace throughout the world and will not have popular support. Bush and the Republicans have already helped spread anti-Americanism world wide. Our interests are facing stronger opposition and resistance worldwide from the Europeans, the Russians, the Chinese, India, Canada, and Latin America. The CIA, the Pentagon, and other dometic and international intelligence agencies have studied different war sceneros and all point to a marginial draw and the destruction of both Israel and the United States’ superpower status. Iran is no where near Iraq and Afganistan and we can not just walk in. The have surface to air missiles, anti-aircract missiles, sub-marines, ballisitic missiles, and high tech nuclear technology and know how. If we go to war we will have to re-institute the national draft, just like Vietnam, except the fact that more Americans will die and we will be fighting a multi-theatered battle with an enemy that has the capabilities to damage us at home. For who ever reads this. Listen to me, “War with Iran spells doom for eveyone.”

29 So what's your suggestion, Robert the Iranian posing as an American, just surrender to the bastards. And who says to invade Iran? We don't need to invade Iran to snuff out its nuclear capability. I would in no way favor an invasion of Iran along the lines of Iraq. There is no reason for an invasion of Iran. We just want to knock out their nuclear capability. Do you understand now, you master of disinformation posing as an American? You know Iran's ass is grass, that's why you posted that stupid disinformation. Go stick your head in a commode, you idiot.

30 Bring it on; all the US does is bitch.
Iran has repeatedly said, "BRNG IT ON" and all the US does is bitch about this and that.

The fact of the matter is the US is bogged down in Iraq and has only been able to operate and facilitate it's "military operations" against these "Insurgents" (US and British employed mercenaries imported from north Africa) with the grace of Iran and its expansive Shia population in the greater Mid-East.

If the US could have taken down Iran as these retards claim then it would have, why prounce around and beat around the bush?

The fact of the matter is that the US will never attack Iran and or Invade it in any way.

You got nukes, we got nukes, and Russia and China are our natural allies.

The only way you can advance your cause in the region (ME) is through Iranian good graces.

Best,
The Persian

31 Persian : Yeah except we have enough nukes to level your entire nation and can get em there you have none or maybe a few can would be lucky to get one over the horizon. Good luck with that Iran is not in a postion to be MAD just OAD ur assured destruction.

1 Sounds like a replay of the Cold War.

The USSR bragged up their weapons and what was going to happen to us, so we built weapons. That scared the USSR and they blustered and bragged some more, and we built more weapons.

Those ruling Iran might not think we will take them seriously. We would not have, before.

2 All this talk about Iran, and bombing them back to the stone age, (they do not have far to go), is causing future contracts for oil to rise. Look at what is happening at the pump. I hate this.

Maybe, more people should have a little of what that General is smoking, take a movie break, and be at peace with everyone. Of course, I did not write that.

3 IF ONLY they would have a bong-a-thon, they would then be too stoned to get off the couch. Somebody PLEASE pust the big red button and turn IRAN to glass, something Carter should have done in '79

4 that should have been "push" the big red button. These idiots are itching to start shit, we should finish it before it begins. Peace through superior fire power.

5 You would think that after the way you have managed to win in Iraq and crush the resistance that they would know better.

Oh hold on..

6 Sonic, what's your problem, eh? You just hop around doing drive bys with your one liners? We got your message - days ago.

7 Nice to see you are getting the point!

8 Sonic, why the drive by. Do you have anything to say about Generals, and bongs, or are you mad you have a small penis?

9 Sorry, I thought you were talking about Iran and the inevitable victory American arms are sure to secure there!

10 Sonic, the Iranian army would be destroyed in a couple of weeks just like the Iraqi army was. The only reason we had to fight an insurgency in Iraq was because we didn't send all the troops we would need to occupy from the start. Also, U.S. involvement in Iraq should be done soon. Only 4 provinces are still resisting and when the Iraqi army has enough men they will take over those areas and we will leave having accomplished our mission.

11 Can I have some of what Craig has been smoking?

12 That is a start Sonic. Just state what you think a bit more. Your reasons for not thinking a war with Iran would go as everyone thinks.

You do not have to agree with Craig. I hope Craig is correct. Write why you think he is wrong.

13 Leatherneck, I'm not sure who this "everyone" you speak of is. Most military analysis I have read thinks a war with Iran would be a seriously tough prospect, one that with your army bogged down in Iraq the US military could not win.

The Iranians are well armed, have the ability to close the gulf to oil ($200 a barrel anyone) and also allies all over the region, including Iraq.

Even a conventional victory would still leave you the problem of occupying a country twice as big as Iraq and with plans in place to conduct a guerrilla war that would make Fallujah look like a cakewalk.

Think it over.

As for Chris and his "we are winning in Iraq" fantasy, how many times are have we seen that disproved?

14 Yeah, Sonic, those heavy casualties of 29 a month have just about done the whole United States military in. What shall we do? What if Iran notices how weak we are and invades New Zealand. What would you do, Sonic?

Heres Sonic right after the walk through by the powerful(or so Sonic says, so I know it is right) Iranian Army:

"Sir, please sir, I'll suck your dick and be a good little dhimmi. Do you want me to show you where the women are hiding? Sir, yes, sir, I'm reading the koran as we speak. Look, sir, there's those female bitches just awaiting your wonderful soldiers. Do you want me to help give them clitorectomies? Because, I will, sir, I will."

What a little bitch you are, Sonic. Pathetic!

15 Jesusland, funnily enough no-one has any plans to invade us, you know why?

Because we dont have many ignorant f*ckers like you who think the best way to relate to the world is to stomp around pissing everyone off.

Behaviour like that has consequences.

16 Please inform me who has plans to invade the US. What a dumb ass you are!

17 And I wouldn't count on your country acting peacably having anything to do with someone invading you. Look what happened to that peaceful nation of Iraq. You never know, Uncle Sam might get pissed at you. Katy bar the door then, Kiwi.

18 Where did anyone say you were about to be invaded?

Consequences is what I said, consequences.

19 "Because we dont have many ignorant f*ckers like you who think the best way to relate to the world is to stomp around pissing everyone off."

That's odd, because you appear to be the very embodiment of an "ignorant f*cker". Here we go again with how ignorant the Americans are.

It's ignorant, snobby little jerks like you who think it's better if these radical Imams are just left alone to run roughshod over the Middle East people, keeping them in the dark ages, killing them with impugnity and abusing anyone who happens to get too close. You think it's okay that they willfully emigrate to other countries in droves with the purpose of taking over. You think it's okay whatever they do as long as it's against the evil USA. As long as they leave YOU alone, right?

Those like you would rather stomp around blogs showing your arse and pissing everyone off with your inane little comments. You don't know anything about us over here. Nothing. All you do is read your rags over there and listen to negative news taking everything at face value because you're a hateful little twit and you need someone to project it onto rather than think for yourself.

I never could understand why some people get their jollies making snide and insulting remarks to others over and over. Got nothing constructive to do with your time? Nothing constructive to say or offer? You don't have the balls to say such things to people to their faces. Isn't the keyboard a wonderful thing?

20 Privately the Iranian military is scared to death of the American military. And the have put it in writing.

Sun Tzu preached that in war, the weak must appear strong and the strong ought to appear weak.

That's a pretty straight assesment of Iran and America.

21 I am a patriotic person. If the US decides to go to Iran, we will be crippling ourselves. I served in the Armed Forces and am an ex-serviceman. Iran’s national capabilities in the region are up to par with ours. TYhey have the best military force in the region, are modernized, and an educated nation. They possess weapons made to take down our battle ships for which we have no defense. They have an intrnational intellegence and spy network. Military consultants and experts all over the world, including in America and NATO, predict catastrophy for the US military and economy. The world will stop for this war and both the Mid-East and the rest of the world will be destabilized and in up roar. Not only will we be demoralized by the Iranians military capabilities but we will not have enough oil because the Iranian military can close the Persian Gulf. We will lose pace throughout the world and will not have popular support. Bush and the Republicans have already helped spread anti-Americanism world wide. Our interests are facing stronger opposition and resistance worldwide from the Europeans, the Russians, the Chinese, India, Canada, and Latin America. The CIA, the Pentagon, and other dometic and international intelligence agencies have studied different war sceneros and all point to a marginial draw and the destruction of both Israel and the United States’ superpower status. Iran is no where near Iraq and Afganistan and we can not just walk in. The have surface to air missiles, anti-aircract missiles, sub-marines, ballisitic missiles, and high tech nuclear technology and know how. If we go to war we will have to re-institute the national draft, just like Vietnam, except the fact that more Americans will die and we will be fighting a multi-theatered battle with an enemy that has the capabilities to damage us at home. For who ever reads this. Listen to me, “War with Iran spells doom for eveyone.”

22 Robert, you do know you're not supposed to actually take Iranian propaganda at face value, don't you? I recall hearing people say roughly the same things about Iraq when we invaded the first time.

23 I don't understand why everyone thinks we need to hold Iran. Slash and burn, destroy what we need to and, and leave them to make mud and camel dung huts. We sustain casualties in Iraq because we've committed to make long term changes there. I don't see that we need to do the same in Iran, not at this point anyway. I'm still waiting to hear what Sonic's military creds are, he's quick to ask. I'm sure he was probably in the SAS like all the other heroes.

24 bla blab bla bla ,what you loosers ,the hole time talking we,we,we,we , you dont do shit just bark and masturbate behind your pcs jurk offs ,if you can do anything go and fight too fucking pussys,come on ,chicken shits bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla get a girl and shut the fuck up....

1 Upon the next attack, Americans should rise up and slaughter every muslim in the country, leaving none to escape. Hang them from every bridge and light post, then go after the libtards.

2 I think there are enough armed Americans who still love their country to take care of any Iranians who might wish to do us harm.

All Iranians out there, it would be wise to report these would-be terrorists to the FBI before they can act, because it will not be possible to tell you apart after an attack. So, please report these guys now. You know who they are.

1 I'm surprised they didn't murder him like they did with that Canadian reporter, Zahra Kazemi.

Good thing he got out of there alive!

2 I wonder what would have happened if he had refused?

3 He probably would have been hung from a crane to be made an example of as many other political dissidents in Iran have been.

If he was female, he'd likely have befallen the same fate as Ms. Kazemi (raped and beaten to death).

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1 I do not want the U.S to even mention Al-Qaeda members being in Iran, as being part of the reason to impose military action.
Iran would put three rounds in the head of any of them and put them in a mass grave before they would allow the U.S to find them, or prove their presence.

This is the sort of talking points that come back to haunt the officials "OK, you took out Iran, where is Al-Qaeda?" stick to the facts, they're attempting to build Nuclear weapons, and have threatened the Nuclear destruction of Israel. I don't even want to hear about their global support for terrorism, which is a widely accepted fact. Just the Nuclear tyranny.

2 Good point davec. It is the old song, and dance. Talk up a problem for a few months. Iran. Say all the really bad things Iran has been doing, then blast them to the stone age.

How about with someone elce's taxes this time. At least, pay me with oil stock, or something for helping to pay for the bombing. Ya know?

1 They're still blaming "Ariel Sharon"? Hello! the guy's in a COMA!!!! It's just like our moonbats here at home, they'll still be blaming "Bush" for everything under the sun.

2 You have to be in awe of the total denial in the mind of the artist that did that cartoon.

As for the last panel captioned "murder", I think more appropriate captions would be "but mom said this rock was blessed by Allah" or "life lesson #482 - common sense isn't really that common".

3 Meanwhile Saddam Hussein has again turned the Iragi court into a circus, thereby escaping hanging for another 3 weeks! These people cannot be helped! Like putting a dog up in a palace. Wake up and smell the coffee!

4 I wonder what the significance is of the number "7256" on the cartoon of the guy in the prison garb. Anyone know?

5 Interesting many of them are from non-muslim "artists" from the West.

All the ones I've seen are actually quite lame with one glaring exception that (oddly enough) can go either way.

The cartoon by Massoud Shojai / Iran ...

Jews going into a holocaust killing machine - and coming out the other end as an Israeli tank.

I'm sure the Iranian artist & muslims would see this as somehow derogatory ... but to me is says quite loudly ...
WHAT DOES NOT KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER.

Choke on that mohammed! I know quite a few Jews who would be proud of that cartoon.

6 The one that is rightfully true is the one in which (in one frame) someone is poking fun at Islam and people are laughing and in the next frame he's being booted out for holocaust talk.

7 That might depend on where you're at, Oyster. I've noticed that around colleges there's a lot of anti-sematic 'humor' and holocaust jokes.

8 And where is that, Ranba? I think they're specifically pointing to the EU countries which banned holocaust denial.

9 Someone mentioned most of these artist were from the Western "Left", but for any of you who can read Persian, a lot of the originals have the name's of artists from Western extreme-right organizations, or Germans and Austrian's who's freedom of speech is stifled in their homeland.

What's the difference between drawing cartoons that defame Islam and cartoons that deny the Holocaust? One is practicing one's "freedom of speech" and the other is a crime.

The cartoon above doesn't question the existence of the Holocaust, it mealy asks "how can a people who have suffered so much in turn inflict so much suffering?"

Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?

There are 2 parts to this problem: the legacy of Ottoman and British colonialism, and the refusal of corrupt and tyrannical Arab leaders to accept the state of Israel.

Try to understand the other side a little and don't automatically label them as terrorists.

For some of you guys making grandiose pronouncements about the Middle-East (or anything really), try getting a little experience with it before you open your mouths. 8 years service around the world makes you look at the world differently. In the end, Left and Right, Democrat and Republican, terrorist and freedom fighter all begin to look the same.

10 Someone mentioned most of these artist were from the Western "Left", but for any of you who can read Persian, a lot of the originals have the name's of artists from Western extreme-right organizations, or Germans and Austrian's who's freedom of speech is stifled in their homeland.

What's the difference between drawing cartoons that defame Islam and cartoons that deny the Holocaust? One is practicing one's "freedom of speech" and the other is a crime.

The cartoon above doesn't question the existence of the Holocaust, it mealy asks "how can a people who have suffered so much in turn inflict so much suffering?"

Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?

There are 2 parts to this problem: the legacy of Ottoman and British colonialism, and the refusal of corrupt and tyrannical Arab leaders to accept the state of Israel.

Try to understand the other side a little and don't automatically label them as terrorists.

For some of you guys making grandiose pronouncements about the Middle-East (or anything really), try getting a little experience with it before you open your mouths. 8 years service around the world makes you look at the world differently. In the end, Left and Right, Democrat and Republican, terrorist and freedom fighter all begin to look the same.

11 Forgive the double posting, internet problems.

12 "Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?"

That's a little narrow. The Palestinians aren't their only threat. Most of the Middle East would happily trounce them if not for their strong military.

13 Gunther you been around the world too many times if terrorists look the same as freedom fighters to you. You need to get off the fence and come back home! Arabs, Islamists, Muslims, Mohammeds all need to be rounded up and corraled off from sane, decent civilized societies. It is inbred in Arabs that it is their duty by Allah to kill the infidels ( unbelievers ).

14 Point taken, but F-16s, helicopter gunships and Merkhava's are a little much against targets in heavily populated areas and primarily civilian areas.

A majour part of the problem are the larger Arab states use the Israeli issue to distract their populace from their own incompetence.

Then again, many Middle-Easterners see Israel not so much as a Jewish homeland, but more as an Anglo-American imperial outpost, and given the history you can't completely blame them.

15 I said Western artists - not Western left - I was well aware of aspects of the difference.

I believe you are refering to the cartoon I mentioned. Out of the holocaust came strength - the image of the Merkhava is a crude but effective representation of that strength.

That strength is necessary given the disposition & capabilities of the surrounding muslim states - without it the muslim states would use actual war with Israel to distract their populations rather than just the talk of it.

Why use it against the Palestinians? - because they have it and it deminishes causalties to their own - and sometimes is a deterrent.

16 Gunther,

Could part of the problem be the five wars Isreal has fought with it's Arab neighbors? Perhaps, the five loses the Arabs have had against Israel makes them want to send their kids to school, and learn how to blow themselves up to Allah the false moon god.

I don't know, just wondering.

17 "A majour part of the problem are the larger Arab states use the Israeli issue to distract their populace from their own incompetence."

Now there's a point I can't argue.

But if they view Israel as an "Anglo American imperial outpost" there *is* a reason for it and it ain't because many were willing to help them except us and the UK. And it's another convenient distraction.

18 "Most of the cartoons seem to be drawn by the Western Left which is also so morally retarded that it cannot differentiate between a Palestinian terrorist intentionally blowing up a bus full of civilians and the Israeli response which is to kill the terrorists responsible."

I was referring to the original post hondo.

Anyway, I was trying to raise the freedom of speech issue more than anything.

I don't sit on the fence, but I've realized over time that extremists on both sides are only seeking their own selfish ends to put it lightly.

For example, in the 1980s the Contras who fought Nicaragua’s elected socialist government were considered freedom fighters by their sponsors in the US. However, if you look at some of the things these people actually did, they would be considered terrorists of the worst kind by modern standards.

The Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation are also a good example. As long as these people were fighting the Soviets and taking our support through the Saudis and Pakistanis, they were freedom fighters. But the second groups like the MAK (Maktab al-Khadamat) turned on us and began contesting foreign presence in places like Persian Gulf, and began using the tactics we helped them perfect on us, we call them terrorists.

The point I'm trying to make is, the more you go through life, the more you see the subjectivity of this thing we call "reality" and "truth".

Do you think Saddam was any less of an asshole when we, along with the rest of NATO, the Soviet Union and Arab states provided him with large loans, shipments of advanced weaponry including chemical and biological weapons, key intelligence and in the case of Egypt soldiers? Of course not. We shook his hand, called him Mr. President, all to bleed Iran dry (imagine how dangerous it would’ve been to have the Shah or even Khomeini at the helm of a powerful Iran in one of the most strategic areas in the world). And then, when Iran had been cut down to size, we took care of Iraq. For the historians among you, remember that what is modern Kuwait had been promised to modern day Iraq (and Mosul province of the Ottoman Empire was supposed to go to Turkey instead of Iraq). Do you think we liberated Kuwait because they’re decent, upstanding, freedom loving people? No! These guys were slant drilling into Iraq for a while, and only got what was coming to them. Kuwait is a family dictatorship that doles out millions and millions to native Arabs to keep them placated (and extremely lazy). Kuwait is the lamest excuse for a state we ever came up with. They’re nothing more than a convenient petrol station and brothel.

To further illustrate, people think that the Northern Alliance that we supported to overthrow the Taliban was the democratic opposition to the extremist Islamic government there. But for anyone who's done HUMINT work in Afghanistan and spoken with Afghans (My Persian is good enough that I could speak to most Afghans, since Dari is basically the archaic version of it), you know that the NA and other pro-American warlords were more or less the same piece of shit as the Taliban. As a matter of fact, when they were thrown out of Kabul everyone was happy to see the Taliban in power, particularly those Americans seeking to run large energy projects here in the State's. Only difference between the two is one got on the bandwagon when we saw it fit to give the ME a facelift.

This is why people are surprised when they see that life in that miserable country hasn't changed at all, though I wouldn't say its gotten worse.

When some of you guys get off your chairs, pull up you pants and drag yourselves away from your computers to see the world (and maybe even enlist!), you'll see what I'm talking about.

Leatherneck, you need to read less Chick comics. False moon god? What religious tradition do you think Islam comes from? The Judeo-Christian one. What do you think YVWH was to the Jews? According to most Hanafi and even Shia scholars, the god of the Muslims, Christians and Jews is the same one. The difference between the religions, according to them can be explained like this: Judaism is like Windows 95, Christianity like Windows 98 and Islam is like Windows XP. All three will get you where you want to go, but one works better (though I think the merits of the XP OS are questionable...)

Anyway, good luck with whatever you guys do with your lives. I just remembered I have a company to run and employees to hire.

- Gunther

19 Goodby gunther on behalf of myself and several other veterans and mil personnel "who decided not to enlist".

If your going to qute someone here - do it verbatim!!!!!! Otherwise you expose yourself as just another drop by freakin' pretentious BS Artist.

20 Gunther also needs to gain a better understanding of Islam. He only skimmed the surface with what he was told by somebody. For someone so quick to equate certain aspects of who fights who for what, you'd think he might have at least gotten that part right.

Being too close to a situation can skew one's opinion as easily as beeing too far removed.

But he's right about one thing for sure. Kuwait. I have a very close friend in Kuwait City right now who has been there for about two months. He's told me what's going on there. Backward would be an understatement to describe it. But Kuwait's little transgression was simply a convenient complaint masking other reasons Saddam invaded.

This has come a long way from cartoons.

21 As Gunther aptly demonstrated, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

22 Gunther, you talk about targetting defenseless cilvilian areas. The point you are missing is that they are all terrorists if they reside within Arab countries. That is because they are all inbred to kill the infidel. That is their mandate. Murder is okay for them, it is even a requirement! Their duty! You should get off the fence and go live with them since your analogy of Christ being Window's 98 and Islam being Window's XP reveals your higher regard for Islam. Please just take your company to Iraq and hire some Iraqis. We don't need your kind around here. Please don't reply with a book either. That is the typical response of these Arabian morons who have nothing better to do!

23 justus = strawman

1 The dogs are just getting revenge for 1400 years of jihad:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
God's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.
—Bukhari 4.54.540

2 remember when the moonbats were all riled up that U.S forces were shooting feral dogs inside Fallujah, because they too had been eating on the flesh of corpses that had been laying in the streets.
I too thought it was a bad idea to kill them. They should have been rounded up and bought to the protesters batcave, for them to take care of -- all they needed was a hug.

3 Zoning the cemetary away from the fish market and hiring dog catchers would be too "western", and would imply the presence of civilization. Although the Middle East was the birthplace of math, medicine, and science, I don't see any signs of civilization from where I stand, nor any signs of that region moving toward it either.

4 When you have a religion that goes so far as to tell you which hand to wipe with, the people are utterly incapable of doing anything on their own. Pathetic.

5 Odds are the soulution to this problem will emerge in the form of a stupidly named, UNDP funded militia with members standing outside the cemetary ready to deal with any dogs using RPGs and AKs. Eventually residents will be "kindly" asked to provide a "donation" to the brave mujahideen upon entering the cemetary.

6 There is no indication in the story that this has been an ongoing problem. Would it be so hard for a couple people to put their heads together and figure out what's new or different and apply the correct solution? Did someone simply leave the gates open? If the reporter told us that, it might be a non-story.

7 How dare you suggest that people should solve their own problem using common sense and their own effort! What are you, some sort of Zionist-neocon fascist or something? This is obviously a problem for the UN, because why should anyone be expected to do anything for themselves?

Honestly, it's hard to believe sometimes that the average arab is as stupid as this, but then a story like this pops up, and reaffirms it all over again. These people want to rule the world, and they can't even keep wild dogs and children from desecrating their own dead? Just how many generations have these people been walking upright?

8 Is it good there weren't pigs involved?

9 Forest, the thought crossed my mind too.

10 I don't see what they're complaining about. You'd think they would be happy that their dearly departed are being given the same post mortem treatment as the "prophet.

/poor doggies have to lick their bums extra long to mask the taste of islam.

11 Maybe they should issue a FATA against all the feral dogs go out and chop off their heads and kill them all and what will the idiots at PETA do?

12 lol! funniest thread ever.

13 These are obviously Christian infidel dogs who must be taught the ways of Allah. Nonetheless, one takes great comfort in the fact that these canines were not drawing any cartoons.

14 They will now issue a FATWA on dogs and chop of their haeds will PETA go there to object?

1 Iran is a real threat to the rest of the world. They have no friends but will side up with Iraqi terrorists (their old enemy) or the taliban to hit at the west. It speaks volumes that no other country really likes them but it also makes them dangerous.
They are an evil but cunning nation and I would say they are the most likely nation to unleash a "dirty bomb" on the west.

2 "The Iranian Revolutionary Guard has an eye on everything that happens along the border" ?? They can do it and we can't ? Shia blew up one of their own most holy sites ? Why would Iran have to send fighters into Iraq ? They already are in defacto control by way of the population demograpics. I don't really see the Shia militias needing any more fighters, at least at the present time. One of the first questions that must be asked about the transcripts from Gitmo is: why is this person saying this ? A second question is: Was the person in a postion to Know the truth ? When the mosque was blown up most people attributated it to al Queda in Iraq, not Iran.

3 . One of the first questions that must be asked about the transcripts from Gitmo is: why is this person saying this ?

I'm guessing the panties on the head, and barking guard dogs paid off.

4 John, of course the Shia militias don't need more support, They've had it since this war started. And if you think the Iranians were going to be overt about it, think again. This has been going on all along. It's not some "new" information. It just corroborates what is already known.

5 Any country that aids terrorists is a terrorist country and there are many that belong to the UN CUBA,IRAN,CHINA,LIBYA,SIRIA, just to name a few

1 Holy smokes! They didn't.. oh no.. not tom and jerry!
LMAO.. hillarious
keep it up
love
g

2 TOM AND JERRY are in hiding and wheres ROGER and JESSICA RABBIT? and what about BENNY THE CAB and BABY HERMAN are they in dire danger?

3 This afternoon I was doing some wood work. After sawing a plank I noticed that I had a small cut on my finger. Then it dawned on me - the Jews made the Ark of the Covenant out of wood! I had just falling victim to a Zionist plot whereby all of the world's timber was specially treated to have splinters which would cause immeasurable pain, suffering and even bleeding, thus requiring treatment from Jewish doctors at the hospital. It's all a Zionist scheme to subjugate the world and control its money!

4 You realize that you're going to straight to Hell for blaspheming Spongebob, don't you?

5 My eyes. The goggles do nothing!

6 Ithink people aare reading more into toons than is really there. Remember the gay teletubbies and gay Patrick and SpongeBob Squarepants. These religously intolerant of Christianity and Islam are actually quite similar.

7 Yes, John I was thinking the same thing when I read about Christians burning down PBS's office, and holding up signs threatening to behead the producer. Oh wait. that didn't happen.

8 The Toons are handicapped by the fact that the traitor Bert has already turned over most of their classified information to the Other Side.

9 John Ryan: "quite similar?" Hmmm. By your logic, may I also say that Satanism and Christianity are quite similar? Both believe in the supernatural, both honor invisible beings, and both have worship services.

10 I like pie. Sometimes, I choose pudding.

11 GI Joe is mobilizing for an invations as we speak..

Cobra is on the back burner and Islam is be saying, 'Now we Know' soon

12 BUGS BUNNY,DAFFY DUCK and ELMER FUDD are now under goverment protection THE TRANSFORMERS and getting ready to ROLL OUT and POKEMON are hiding

1 http://i1.tinypic.com/o6mwjr.jpg

2 If this is true, it gives me the warm fuzzies.

3 This drives home the point that Iran should take our position seriously; and other Middle Eastern countries as well. This is exactly why we have to continue our support of the War in Iraq for democracy. If we pull out now before our job is even complete, this will not set a good precedence for other countries to "take us seriously." We cannot be safe here in the United States until our work is done to bring democracy to the MIddle East and destroying the terrorists who hate the idea of that democracy.

4 If our leaders really decide to start flexing their muscles, there isn't anything that anyone can do about it, especially Russia, which is so corrupt and decrepit that it can barely stay afloat without our help.

5 Iran's looking for a confrontation with the western world - and the western world is looking for a patsy with muscle
to give it to them along with plausible deniability fro themselves.

I don't believe jack shit what comes out of the foreign western media.

1 Rusty

I disagree - since I believe all this cartoon shit is just a giant global islamist pep rally to fire them up for their true intended targets .... other muslims and muslims back home.

Maybe send sympathy cards to the moderates, secularists and fencesitters in the muslim world (there are indeed millions of them!). Mod mislims - look in the mirror - your the goal - the target - your fucked! - and you haven't given me any reason to give a damn!

2 As a pure secularist, there is no surprise to me at the rantings from any corner. The insanity is reflective of the group-psychosis that is at the root of human irrationality. Sick muthafuckers all.

3 My personal understanding of the situation has always been when asking again and agian why an entire country who lives in fear of their gov't and authority figures, has not been able to fight them off in 28 years was as simple as the fact they had nothing like the 2nd amendment, the populace I mean. Have never discussed this thought with anybody else , always wondered if that's all it boiled down to. I mean it really is terrorism , I guess every nation exports that which they've perfected at their home land..
thanks.

4 Shows what happens when you follow a false god. Jesus was pretty clear that He is the only way of salvation an if you reject Him you will be cast into a lake of fire for your sins.

1 Gul-e-muhammadi, eh? I'm assuming that's pronounced "goolie muhammadi". Well, in Australia here, "goolie" means testicle. So that's not very appetizing. Mohammed's testicle? Ewwww!

2 Well, it is about as dumb as calling french fries freedom fries. Maybe there's hope for the Iranians yet.

1 I consider the second panel of the second cartoon to be offensive.

2 Actually war done CORRECTLY brings peace. Just ask Western Europe. It doesn't take much to get your cartoons published in Iran does it? Not much of an emphasis on artistic skill. Stick some Jew-hating text on something drawn by a three year old and it gets you in the papers.

3 Criticizing holocaust or anything related to Jewish faith is not acceptable but insulting 1.3 billion Muslims is freedom of press. I call that fair game.

4 Hey dumbass,

The Holocaust has nothing to do with the faith called Judaism. It was genocide against a RACE and/or ETHNICITY.

Calling Muhammed a pedophile is an attack on your religion--an attack on ideas.

To equivocate shows how childish and moronic you truly are.

5 The "leunitic" that drew it has been an "artist" since the Vietnam War. Guess what stance he took on that?

6 You just don't get it!

The REAL issue is not whether or not offensive cartoons are getting published!

The REAL issue is how we respond to being offended by some cartoons! I'm GLAD if Iran publishes some cartoons offensive to jews or christians. Please make fun of the holocaust or make fun of Jesus because then you will see the dramatic difference...NOT ONE jew and NOT ONE christian will react by going on a violent rampage smashing windows, destroying cars, burning down stores, etc.
That is because Islam breeds violent fanatics who use their religion as an excuse to vent the primitive barbaric impulses pent up in their fanatically brainwashed emotionally tormented souls.

7 Why is holocaust so highlighted and not Hiroshima. Hitral was bad but American president was great in using the barbaric bomb on Japan. Killing 4 million in 5 seconds. No one talks about that BECAUSE HISTORY IS ALWAYS WRITTEN BY WINNERS and no matter how you win; you can portray you enemy by different dramatic fanaticism like holocaust.

8 Still hoping for an intelligent reply
(anyone who can't see the difference between the slow methodical extermination of one's own citizens, or an action against a wartime opponent is not of the mental caliber I'm hoping for)

Once again...

The REAL issue is not whether or not offensive cartoons are getting published!

The REAL issue is how we respond to being offended by some cartoons! I'm GLAD if Iran publishes some cartoons offensive to jews or christians. Please make fun of the holocaust or make fun of Jesus because then you will see the dramatic difference...NOT ONE jew and NOT ONE christian will react by going on a violent rampage smashing windows, destroying cars, burning down stores, etc.
That is because Islam breeds violent fanatics who use their religion as an excuse to vent the primitive barbaric impulses pent up in their fanatically brainwashed emotionally tormented souls.

1 That would be my guess - sitting in Iran with a dozen cell phones and computers and Iranian security forces protecting him.

2 If we were in hot pursuit of him in Western Iraq, there is no way he would have gone East, through the whole country, to cross the border into Iran. It makes no sense whatsoever.

He would have gone to Syria... or even better... his home country Jordan where he no doubt still has friends.

3 Ariya, there are regular flights between Iran and Syria. He could have supper in Damascus and breakfast in Tehran on a daily basis. Hell, he's probably doing a madrassah tour in Pakistan to drum up some recruits.

4 Ariya: He has a double death sentence in Jordan (they'll kill him twice?) I doubt he is looking to go back there.

5 You've missed the obvious.

The pressure against the Mullah Manhattan project is building. Any action taken against that project by the West will trigger an Iranian response IN Iraq. And who better to direct that response than the Z-Man himself.

So of course Z-Man is in Iran right now. He is involved in some high level discussions about their options, about their tactics, targets, cooperation with Al Sadr's boys in the Shiite south. And then again, it's time for him to have a sit down with Osama himself, who is, rest assured, comfortable in a condo outside Tehran.

Don't buy any of this nonsense that Osama bin dirtball is wandering from cave to cave in the Northwest Frontier, or that he is slipping from mud hut to mud hut in the dead of the night. He's quite comfortable in Iran, with his family, and his many female companions.

6 Dan, I don't believe he's in a cave either. He's somewhere not too far from a hospital for health reasons. Someone is making him comfortable in their home.

7 I guess there is one nice thing about working for Al Qaeda. Promotions come very quickly. Of course, you don't last very long afterwards.

8 I agree with Dan.

1 I assume Mr. Mortazavi will underline his point by reprinting the twelve Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

2 Perhaps we should then send a few cruise missiles, the way of the iranian embassies, burn the odd flag etc.

We shouldn't be hearing any complaints, afterall, its just business as usual for them.

3 Does that mean that Hitler=Muhammed?

Maybe I'll submit a few cartoons along those lines myself.

4 So they think the answer to mocking the "Prophet" with cartoons, and challenging free speech, is to actually attack history (instead of Religion) and make fun of the genocide of the Israeli people -- should we take this as another of their threats to wipe out Israel ?

The next Mohammed cartoon I want to see, is one painted on the side of a Tomahawk heading to Iran, preferably with something witty painted underneath, like Behold, I bring you your Virgins -Express

5 what do you think Iran is up do? Does what's-his-name have a game-plan here?

6 أنتم أعداء الله
عقاب الله آت لا محالة
يا أبناء القردة والخنازير

7 to ابن الاسلام

You are a true and genuine example of a banckrupt fundementalist retard whose brains consist of multiple layers of NOTHING.

there are no sons of pigs, or sons of monkeys (as you put it) but you, and those who raised you to become the psychopathic idiot you turned out to be...tfoooo

8 Heroic.. I was pondering that. The Iranian Hitler is just itching to be attacked. It makes me think he's got an ace hidden somewhere. I just hope it's not hidden in the US in the form of a suitcase.

9 Now we can see the double standard of the Christian Europe. Denying Holocaust is our freedom of expression. But in Europe it is a crime. Shame on you Europeans. You are launching another Crusade? As Ahmedi Nejad rightly put it " If you, the Europeans, are responsible for the so called Holocaust 'the myth', then you give a piece of land for the Jews. Why did you establish such a country, one of the most terrorist countries in the world, Israel, behind only to the United States, No. 1 terrorist country in the world, in the heart of in Palastine.

10 >>>Denying Holocaust is our freedom of expression.

Assfag puke,

shut your stinking hole you filthy terrorist. There's no reasoning with animals like you.

11 I can't believe I'm hearing "freedom of expression" and Iran uttered in the same sentence. Like the freedom Kazemi had to express herself.

12 The US is the Number 1 Terrorist, wow.

Anyone heard that lame excuse for terrorism trotted out, 'one mans terrorist is another mans hero'.

Guess what Assfaqed PK, it works both ways too, Uncle Sam my Hero...

13 I think soon its going to get to the point where we will be forced to deport all Muslims out of civilized countries. Send them back, and put a big fence around the Muslim countries to keep them in.

14 Either Islamo-fascist or Nazi comments here.
Humanism is really on vacation these days.

15 And when there are protests consisting only of strongly-worded editorials, but no "boycott" of Iran or torching of embassies, what will spokesmen for the ROP say then?

16 Hopefully if they do publish these disgusting cartoons of the Holocaust in this Iranian newspaper, it will show that westerners will not react to it in an unreasonable way; burning Iranian flags, setting fire to Iranian embassies etc. I know that the Prophet Muhammad (saas) is very important to Muslims, as is God to Christians and that lampooning Muhammad (saas) is one of the worst blasphemous acts you could ever do in the Muslim world but surely this has been blown out of proportion.

17 Atta boy human! Cool keyboard too! I'm taking you at your word that that's what the inbred moron spat onto the screen. I betcha Insanetors Swimmer and Horseface are green with envy for not thinking (uh, sorry scratch that-thinking is one hell of a stretch for either one of those misfits), coming up with that ready for NYT quote on their own!

18 And to the nutless wonders that Jesusland Carlos and human called out and any of the rest of you who side with this kind of evil delirium, why don't you slither your sorry, gelatinous, spineless bags of goo down to the NYT and do a camp out thingy. Don't forget the marshmellows and tires. It's not really a News Agency. It's actually another Danish Embassy, really. I got it straight from Plame herself. Or was that another deranged dhimmi named jimmy, it's hard to keep the lies and liars on track.

BTW: Do you know what they call a Professor who graduates last in the class?

19 What will happen is a few people will carp and complain and the Iranians will equate that with the burning of buildings, destruction of personal property and marching down the streets with signs and shouting slogans demanding the death of everyone involved. And a bunch of Muslims will agree that the reactions are indeed the same. It's called moral relativism and it's infected much of the world. They just don't get it.

20 Most of this is saber rattling, as most Americans only care if they can buy cheap chinese merchandise in wal-mart instead of just fondling it and if gas can remain under $3.00 a gallon. Those are the fundamental concerns of America and the West in general. I think 1/3 of the West would put their women in burkas if they could make a dollar on it and 1/3 would put their women in burkas to avoid conflict. The rest of us just talk tough in blogs.

21 By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their crops. christain Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter. Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle sam, but without taking any action against Israel.. You CHRISTIAN EUROPE, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER CRUSADE? Do you want to destroy Islam? You are in fools' paradise. Islam will,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL. YOU ALL WILL PERISH ONE DAY, GOD WILLING.

22 Assfag,

you are correct about the illegality of denying the Holocaust in Europe. That is indeed censorship and hypocrisy. You're right! But I would expect nothing less from Europe's politically correct so-called "humanists". Notice that here in America we have so such censorship even though we are fascistic little christian fundies.

Yes, Israel can keep its nukes, but Iran may not. Those are the rules. Why? Because Israel will not use its nukes to threaten the West, but Iran will. It's that simple. Israel is our friend, Iran is our enemy.

And we aren't "stealing" your oil wealth. We are BUYING it. Do you know the difference between BUYING something versus stealing it? You should be grateful that we are BUYING it, by the way, because if we don't BUY your oil, you'll have NO MONEY to buy food from the Danish! And then what will you do? Eat sand? Drink oil?

Re "palestine." As long as Hamas is in power, "palestinians" will NEVER have a state.



As far as America being number one terrorist and allahs'

23 It's so funny how these primitive savages, just barely out of the caves, think they can intimidate us with their idiotic rhetoric.

24 I am fed up with Islam. I have Muslim friends but they condone all the so, so many flaws in the quaran and the hadith.
Lets stick to facts here about the quaran.

Muhammed was the first one to begin a crusade!! heres the link, and the timeline. The film "kingdom of heaven", where the european christians begin a crusade against islam, it shows it began in 1000's. heres the link, heres the timeline, an i want Muslims to respond to this, since no-one is allowed to ask questions about the religion without a FATWA, no-one is able to renounce the religion OR THEY WILL DIE (this 2006, for Allahs sake)and no-one is going to admit to Muhammeds history of Paedophilia ( he has sex with when she 9, this is actually true, most muslims scholars, but make the excuse "it was the times) GENOCIDE ( they had 3 choses when encountering non- muslim villages. Become a muslim, pay a tax, or die) and sodomy and abuse towards women)???????
This is meant to be the religion of peace?

heres a link http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5024&search=crusade

25 First off, I am married to a Muslim and am Jewish myself. Muslims believe in the O.T. and that Moses was a messenger of G-d. An informed Muslim will know that G-d gave the land of Israel to the Jews. The Europeans didn't give that Land, G-D in the O.T. did. Nothing in the Quran has ever changed that, nor could it.

See: http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html

26 Who's going to call Animal control on Ashfaq P K, he's foaming at the mouth and obviously rabid.

Not calling you a son of a dog or anything, but you probably are the only person who's mom had eight nipples, and breath smelled like Pedigree chum.

27 Fucking Americans!. At the hand of the Jews,you become so blind, so paranoid about Islam. You are nothing but real stupid dogs to your masters- the jews.

Any fucking response from you fucking American? Please response because your masters are watching!. After all, what's good of being loyal dogs if you fucking americans can't bark?

You can forward your fucking email to me:
Rush008@yahoo.com

28 Yo,

i GiVe a *UcK tO aLl rEliGioN eXcEpT thE mIgThy 1

iF YoU LeT YoUr MotHeRS sLeEp WiTh Me fOr a NigTh LoNg cRuSaDe

tHe tHeMe oF tHis bLoG wiLl cHanGe iN a mAttEr oF a NiGth.

wAiTiNg 2 C 12 cArToOns, kEep tHe gOod wOrks up bRo.

lEt tHe bElL oF fOs rInG.

:p

29 To the Jews all over the world, it is true that you get other people to fight and die for you -the americans! Don't you ever doubt them because they have proven to be loyal dogs and pigs, brainless! son of the bi....!

Rush008@yahoo.com

30 Yeah right, please respond to someone else's Email -- do you think everyone is as dumb as the cumdump you call "mum"?

31 hmmm, seems like the temperature is raising over here. Is this the old Arab vs Western Civilization "war" again.

Rather than arguing each other on the issue, you'd better watch-out for the "empire strikes-back" of the thousand years old chinese civilization. The one who invented papers . Don't you all aware of the acquisition of major American and some european firms by the red flag firms?

I'm off, I'll take vacation in samoa then bye.. :p.

32 I need someone to help me draw. I know we can win the gold coins.

My caption: Hajj Amin Al-Husseini -- "Yes I can get you 20,000 Hanjar fighters for the SS as long as you also let us kill off 3/4 million of Serbs and those dirty gypsys."

There are lots of pictures of Hitler and Hajj Amin Al-Husseini. Or Hajj Amin Al-Husseini inspecting the Hanjar.

The proper term is Islamo-Lenninist who distort the Al-Qurʼān al-Karīm. Those who know and follow the Al-Qurʼān al-Karīm are honorable and peaceful people.

Shaykh Ibn Baaz
Kayfa Nu’aalij Waaqi’unaa al-Aleem – Page 108-109 issued a Fatwa against hijacking planes and kidnapping.

33 I think the the poor emarican has been misled by the propaganda initiated by the jews who invented them long ago in order to cover for their crimes in Palastine. American politics has been long moulded by the jews through their financial strength and tactful approach.

I never believe in holocaust...If at at it is true, HItler might be a bad leader... but in all honesty, why would a leader hated the jews so much? Was he out of his mind? Were the jews so innocent that they simply became the target of a mad man named Hitler? Why was that HItler's sentiment to the Jews so incomprehensible? Jews were not at fault at all for HItler's sentiment? COMEON PEOPLE!HItler can't be so wrong! Well, come to think about this... HItler's wrong stand at what percentage? 80%? 50%? and the jews were faultless?

See? We all know that the Jews are in one way or another the cause of all the problem between the muslim world and the west. How could the land belonging to the Palestine and acknowledged by the UN to hava been "accupied" by the Jews illegally, denied by the Amarica?. The answer seems obvious! ... because every blood and flesh of the american citizen has been contaminated by the Jews. They beg for the western sympathy and in silence clapping their hand when the western start quarreling with the muslims, and killing each other in the process.

Rush008@yahoo.com

34 Freedom of expression is borderless? BY virtiue of this freedom of expression, one has the right to offend other people, religiously or otherwise.

If that is correct, why would it be a crime to doubt holocaust in the european countries? Is,t it a clear hinderence to the freedom of expression... because it is the right of every man and women to doubt it. Come to think about that people.

Rush008@yahoo.com

35 For someone demanding a lot of tolerance from us you seem to be displaying an lot of intolerance rush.

36 The letters posted in this web site and reply to my letter is concrete examples of how intolerant are the Europeans and the Americans. They can’t even give a satisfactory reply to my questions. I am repeating my words here.

By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. If publishing any thing in the name of freedom of expression, then it is my freedom of expression to doubt and deny the existence of the so called HOLOCAUS, THE MYTH. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. Your double standards and enmity towards Muslims are evident from the following.

If you are hell bent on freedom of expression, why you are preventing muslim girls and women from wearing head scarves. Wearing head scarves is their freedom of expressing herself. But in European Countries it is not allowed. NOT DOUBLE STANDARD?

You the Europeans and the US is pursuing a policy of double standards when it comes to democracy. For you, democracy means the party or the government whom you support should win the election. If the winners are your opponents, you will not allow them to form the Government. Examples: In Algeria , the Islamic Salvation Front won the election with huge majority. But the so called CHRISTIAN EUROPE, PARTICULARLY FRANCE, along with the world’s No. 1 terrorist country, the USA, interfered and made the Military take over the control. Now the country is under civil war. Who is responsible for that, no doubt, the CHRISTIAN EUROPE AND THE USA. What happened in Turkey? Even though the Islamic Pary led by Najmudheen Arbakan won the elections , you the Europeans with the help of military there, cancelled the elections and made the military to take control there also. Now these Europeans have got retaliation. Again in Turkey, Islamic Party is ruling. What happens in Egypt? Europe’s and America’s friend Husni Mubarak is ruling for so many years without any democracy. And he recently conducted an mock election. You Europeans and Americans call them Democracy? When your friends are making mockery of democracy you have no complaints. When your opponents wins the election, you try to topple those governments. What a double standard?

Now you are aginst Hamas. Hamas’s victoy shocked you? You want them to recognize Israel? How can you recognize a country which is illegally occupying your territory and flouting all the resolutions passed by you in the Security Council? A country which is killing your people every day? You promised the Palestineans a state by 2005. What you have done to fulfill your promise? Will you stand as a silent spectator, if any other country illegally occupy your land and kill your people, destroying your agricultural crops, dividing your land by great walls and harassing you always?

What did you do in Bosnia Herzegovina? You allowed the Serbs, the insane and maddest people in the world, to systematically kill the muslims of Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. When you were supplying arms to the Yugoslavians and the Serbs, you prevented the Bosnians from acquiring any weapons to defend them by bringing an arms embargo against them. And thereby joined with the Serbs in massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims, including women and children. You raped muslim women of Bosnia. Bosnian Vice President was killed by the Serbs from dragging him out of the UN armoured vehicle in the presence of your European peace keeping force. They killed him in front of your Peace Keeping Force.. You deliberately assisted the Serbs to kill him.. Radovan Karadjic , the War Criminal is still being protected by you, the Europeans.

You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their agricultural crops. Christian Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter? Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle Sam, but without taking any action against Israel.. You CHRISTIAN EUROPE, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER CRUSADE? Do you want to destroy Islam? You are in fools' paradise. IN THE END ISLAM,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL, GOD WILLING.

37 IN THE END ISLAM,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL, GOD WILLING.

Why do you idiots insist on tacking on "God Willing" on to the end of every stupid statement you make?
Is it because in your heart you know you will fail, so you can blame the failure on the will of Allah?

News Flash: Allah is WILLING to wipe out the Muslims by the thousands, in Iraq and Afghanistan war, Indonesia with the Tsunami, Earthquakes in Pakistan, Iran and Turkey and then again recently in Egypt with the sinking of a Ferry.

With the logic of "Allah's Will" in everything, we can then assume he hates you.

38 I stumbled across this site doing a Google search on the cartoon controversy. I must say that I am appalled by many of the comments posted by contributors. Do you all realise that it is YOU that are preaching hate with your insults and talk of wiping people out. Why, Hitler himself never said such things about the Jews that you people are saying about Muslims! God help us all. You especially!
Best Wishes. Joe

39 Uh, Joe, I'm surprised at how you admonish the hateful language of non-Muslims and not the hateful language of the Muslims in this thread. Are you ignoring something here or are you really that blind?

And to this Ashfaq guy - Your hypocrisy is astounding. I'm really at a loss for words.

40 Free speach is free speach, aren't we being hipocritical if we condemn them for cartooning something. I mean Lighten up people. The violence is unneccesary, but its ok for someone to say something, we have the right to object to it. It may be in bad taste and offensive. Quit the PC bullshit and just deal with it.

41 somebody answer me, who was the fisrt using nuclear power to attack another.

answer is the world most terrorist Uncle Sam.

42 I think the Hamshahri Holocaust cartoon contest is a great opportunity to underline the repressive and backward nature of the Islamo-fascist socities. Let's all flood the newspaper with drawings that show Hitler and his gang hand-in-hand with Mohammed and his buddies celebrating the murder of 6 million human beings. Let's see if the Iranians have the balls to print THOSE. They've issued a challenge as to wether our society will tolerate holocaust cartoons...but they weren't clever enough to forsee that cartoons even about that subject can still offend traditional (as opposed to core) Muslims.

Don't misinterpret the tone of this post. I know and respect decent people of all religions and nationalities. It's the indecent people I object to....and there are indecent people of every religion and nationality. This is a matter of a few murderous and power-hungry "leaders" (from all religions and nations) trying to hijack the world for their own selfish and hateful agendas.

Let's put the hatemongers in their place!

Can anybody find out how to make submissions to the contest? The only web pages I've found so far are Arabic-only.

43 Americans wake up. Our country and our freedom has been hijacked. Don't listen to them. The truth is coming out every day.

This is what our first President George Washington said about these people.

"They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America."

http://www.realnews247.com/who_rules_america_updated_2004.htm

http://www.radioislam.org/bush/bush-march262003.htm

44 P.K. Assfuk ,

Question for you :

Were you born an asshold or did you work at it your whole life ?

45 ack!

46 Woohoo!

I stumbled right into the dark ages over here!
I like to think most folks are folks, the difference being your where you are brought up.

Alot to do with "where you stand is where you sit".

Religon is a bad deal, the code, however is right.
The code are tenents that make us different from most other life on this planet. It tells us it is not a good idea to steal, kill, etc... all the things you would chalk up to comman sense.

Putting a ethno-geographical twist to the code, complete with psuedo-historical relevance and of course topped off with a healthy sprinkling of myth & imagination, leads to corrupting of a rather simple notion.

God (s) where an excellent example of human natures need for understanding, the science was not always there, so then you get interuptations, and dogma, which have become somehow on par with reality, there is a reason for this, you guessed it, the almighty carrot stick. Religon has always done what Kings could not, self-censure, and a reward/punish system that does not empty their coffers...

Get to the point already, you say, fine...

Get rid of all religons! Take personal accountability, get rid of the crutch of archaic ideas, and get on with your life! From an observer who whorships no one, all I see is wasted lives & energy, better spent building a world for all. I know I change no opinions with my blather, and you will all no doubt carry on about who's god(s) has a "bigger" one, I thought I would try and shine a little commen sense in here, good luck to you all in getting that nasty religious monkey of your back!

Enjoy!!!

47 i think some of you people are really being tough on muslims man. Im not saying i aggree completly with Iranian people, that the holocoust was a Myth and all that crap but i think we should stop hating each other and we have to chill out. There is this idea in US that shows most of the americans hate muslims because of their radical thoughts and most of the americans hate jews too because of the whole Christianity and Jewish stories and that the jews betrayed jusses. i think we should stop fighting over these religous stuff and appreciate the life as full as possible together and with love and peace. You might not agree with me or cuss at me like others but i still respect your thoughts and freedom so just chill!!

48 persianhero: Perhaps sing cumbya as well?
Just kidding, I agree this thread is prime example of why it is so hard for folks to get along.How can we as a people, when we are close to traversing the stars, throwback certain aspects of our evolved brain...it is quite shocking to me perfectly intelligent, educated folks stuck in a loop steeped in ignorance and cultural mindsets akin to lemmings?

Now, I understand for anyone to accept their particular religon, they cannot do it 95%, and have 5% doubt...that is crushed out of you early generally speaking. So what we have are tons of folks hostage to there dogma, unable to see clearly, and totally unable to have two differing ideas in their head without filtering them thru religous buffers.

Yes, I am attacking ALL religons, even the ones I find to be mild and unintrusive (North American Indians come to mind), because they all distract, and they divide us more then anything else...

Let it be known my feelings are actually getting more mainstream here in Canada,(Go hosers eh!)
Yes, us godless frozen people have had enough of the church (any), they would be better served sheltering the homeless 24/7...whats that? They do, well ok, but in my world, a bible would not become manditory reading for those poor folks..they need jobs, not religon.

Well, I end my little rant on Religon in general now, please continue the godtalk, feel free to utterly disregard all my comments, especially if your religous, as if you had a choice!!!

49 Way to go, eh!, Invisablemaninthesky !

Although, I must say that the monkey on the
back (as you put it, ie: religion), is actually
two monkeys, a good one and a bad one. But, yes,
both are 'religion' monkeys. If you can shake
the bad monkey off your back you're doing the
best. Of course this is very tricky, ie: really
knowing which one is bad and which one is good.

And since this is rather tricky, for most of
us, then its certainly much better to shake both
monkeys off you back (as you suggested), rather
than taking the risk of keeping the bad one on !

btw: if a canuck/muslim like me can have this view, I wish that other people of religion could have the same view. Yes, I know, I'm asking for
waaaaaay too much here

boybinary

50 Hey Rush,


0
l/ =Muhammed!
/\


Now don't go burning down a Danish embassy over this one!

51 So sad, So Sad...I have Irrefutable proof that Allah, God, Muhammed, jesus, whatever are simply figments of a corrupt imagination. The proof that a so called 'god' does not exist can clearly be seen in our actions as a species inhabiting this little blue marble. If a ‘god’ really did exist, what would he see? He would look down from his spaceship or something, and see a bunch of semi-intelligent monkeys lobbing cruise missiles at each other, the occasional beheading, and the ever present suicide bombings. What would this omnipotent being think? He would probably turn his spaceship around and go back to nebulan 5 or whatever black hole he came out of. Or, Well according to Islamic fundamentalists he would of course, blame the Jews.

The problem with Islam (I'm using Islam as an example because the proof to a godless universe is best illustrated using this particular religion) is that for some reason, most muslism actually believe that Jews are the cause and root of all the problems inflicting us as a race. People all over the middle east, really do believe, with blind honesty that Jews are the cause of thier suffering. How briliantly, convienantly simple. Its the ultimate scapegote the Jews. Why is there war in the middle east? the Jews. why is the US occuping Iraq? The Jews. why do I have an ingrown toenail? THE JEWS God damnit. There is no neeed to actually think about the problem and take a second look at a religiously fanatic government, with no prospects for peace, equality, advancement or a future. no that would simply be too complex and we might actually have to use a small, often neglected organ called the BRAIN. So the real problem of course is that THE JEWS DID IT.

So why blame Islam on all of society’s ills? Why? because Islam is a religion fit for the middle ages, infact during the 1400’s Islam was perhaps the greatest religion on earth, but a few things have changed since(namely 600 years of evolution) but unfortunately Islam is still living in the past, the very distant past. So what are we left with today? sickies burning Danish flags? (huh? Danish? What did they do? They arent even Jewish?) Religion as a whole will be the downfall of society, and it is clearly evident with Islam. We can already see how successful a society led by religious fanatics can be (see Iran, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, the list goes on) How can a responsible government function based on the fact that all their insane actions are because of the Jewish infidels, well, because the Jews are guilty and God said so. Is it ok to wipe out Israel, yeah why not, Allah said so, Is it ok to strap 12 kilo of C4 to yourself and walk into a crowded coffee shop yell out “god is great” and take out some innocent civilians? Yeah why not, Allah said so, he’ll even throw in a few virgins.

These are just extreme examples of how religious ideology is used as an excuse to murder others who don’t agree with your religious ideology. The Christians, jews, muslims, they are all the same…blinded by the same lie…that god exists and that we do no need to take responsibility for our own actions because in the end it is all gods will, and god can't be wrong. How wrong we all are….Open your eyes and look at the truth - god isn’t there - you are just trying to fill an empty void.

And remember, if you dont want to be held responsible for your actions...just blame the Jews.

52 I written this little poetry,, hope u like it:

You need a kick on your behinds,
but then you may like it!, You may ask for more,
for the fingering is so joyfull, a little bit of cream, and you may find your glorious dream.


You cut you clits and clitoris and you call it beauty. you like kiddie porn, shitty stuff and you call it cuttie.

standing nudes in fron of us, grilling, crying, caliming happiness, what a joy for us,

a tasteless taste, below the animal’s waste,

a heap of shit, buried in a pit.

you are below animals, and unanimates.

yeah sensore this...

53 Why all this hate between humans.

54 create a problem then whine about it.
caucasians love to do this.
i mean what did you expect to happen when you print cartoons like this? you should have expected this. you saw what happened in france.
youre all so scared....

and quit smiling and dancing for the zionist machine, its bound to fall eventually. look at the numbers and do the math. hamas won. god loves democracy and irony.

55 Hehe, we totally hijacked this thread, well sort of!

Boybinary: Right on! A fellow Canuck (and Muslim to boot!) here to show the world is not full of hatred, and certainly not all controled by Religon. Feels good, and makes me very proud to live in the true north, strong & free. Canadians rarely toot their own horn, it seems so, well, unCanadian to do so, but once and a while, it is good to to appreciate your country, especially seeing how a lot of the rest of world operates.

Don't get me wrong, its not all roses up here, we do have our issues, luckily, religon is not one of them. Consider our leaders, who in elections, none would play the godcard, or be wickedly punished (I'm looking at you Stockwell Day!). I look down south during American elections, and it is god this & god that, god is on my side, bless america, etc. That does not fly up here, thankfully!

I certainly do understand how lucky I am to live here, I am free to have my own opinions, if I was born, say, in the west bank, no doubt I would have a different additude, and I no doubt would belive in a religon. So I belive that the "ignorant" masses who buy in to religon, aren't nessessarily lemmings, more they have had no chance to understand the world as it is, rather learn everything thru the lens of religon, you see where I'm going with this...religon sucks, blah blah blah.

56 The letters posted in this web site and reply to my letter is concrete examples of how intolerant are the Europeans and the Americans. They can’t even give a satisfactory reply to my questions. I am repeating my words here.

By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. If publishing any thing in the name of freedom of expression, then it is my freedom of expression to doubt and deny the existence of the so called HOLOCAUST, THE MYTH. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. Your double standards and enmity towards Muslims are evident from the following.

If you are hell bent on freedom of expression, why you are preventing muslim girls and women from wearing head scarves. Wearing head scarves is their freedom of expressing herself. But in European Countries it is not allowed. NOT DOUBLE STANDARD?

You the Europeans and the US is pursuing a policy of double standards when it comes to democracy. For you, democracy means the party or the government whom you support should win the election. If the winners are your opponents, you will not allow them to form the Government. Examples: In Algeria , the Islamic Salvation Front won the election with huge majority. But the so called CHRISTIAN EUROPE, PARTICULARLY FRANCE, along with the world’s No. 1 terrorist country, the USA, interfered and made the Military take over the control. Now the country is under civil war. Who is responsible for that, no doubt, the CHRISTIAN EUROPE AND THE USA. What happened in Turkey? Even though the Islamic Pary led by Najmudheen Arbakan won the elections , you the Europeans with the help of military there, cancelled the elections and made the military to take control there also. Now these Europeans have got retaliation. Again in Turkey, Islamic Party is ruling. What happens in Egypt? Europe’s and America’s friend Husni Mubarak is ruling for so many years without any democracy. And he recently conducted an mock election. You Europeans and Americans call them Democracy? When your friends are making mockery of democracy you have no complaints. When your opponents wins the election, you try to topple those governments. What a double standard?

Now you are aginst Hamas. Hamas’s victoy shocked you? You want them to recognize Israel? How can you recognize a country which is illegally occupying your territory and flouting all the resolutions passed by you in the Security Council? A country which is killing your people every day? You promised the Palestineans a state by 2005. What you have done to fulfill your promise? Will you stand as a silent spectator, if any other country illegally occupy your land and kill your people, destroying your agricultural crops, dividing your land by great walls and harassing you always?

What did you do in Bosnia Herzegovina? You allowed the Serbs, the insane and maddest people in the world, to systematically kill the muslims of Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. When you were supplying arms to the Yugoslavians and the Serbs, you prevented the Bosnians from acquiring any weapons to defend them by bringing an arms embargo against them. And thereby joined with the Serbs in massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims, including women and children. You raped muslim women of Bosnia. Bosnian Vice President was killed by the Serbs from dragging him out of the UN armoured vehicle in the presence of your European peace keeping force. They killed him in front of your Peace Keeping Force.. You deliberately assisted the Serbs to kill him.. Radovan Karadjic , the War Criminal is still being protected by you, the Europeans.

You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their agricultural crops. Christian Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter? Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle Sam, but without taking any action against Israel..

57 Okay!

58 P.K. Ashfaq:

I would be happy to answer your questions!
Alrighty, lets start...

1. Intolerance, Re:America/Europe.
Absolutely! Double standards & intolerance are hardly the providance of any "people/country", it is rampant accross the globe, I would imagine we all know people like this personaly, this comment is kinda a given.As for the Religous context, this is where I part ways with those who belive (in whatever), belonging to a Religon(any) will make you intolerant by design, how could one man who belives one thing truly understand another, who belives in something else. Because Religon is set up to herd your point of view, understanding anothers view is truly impossible for the true-belivers.

59 P.K. Ashfaq:
3.Democracy: Yeah, well, personaly, a true democracy does not exsist yet. Again, it is no surprise double standards exsist, it is everywhere, certainly not just Europe/America.
Thing is, broken or not, Democracy is (for me & my family) the better choice, Theocratic governments are wicked scarey, folks making desisions based on religous dogma & doctirine should not be in power, anywhere (that includes a lot of Islamic states, and yes, even Bush)as commen sense is replaced by archaic thinking, and is bound by laws written for folks a long time ago...mind you, a lot of the laws still make sense, but there is some other ones...ie:Islam & Christianity, both seem to think of Women as property...woops! It is this thinking that holds back progress & enlightenment.

4. The west/Europe, and their manipulation of countries, this is nothing new, I'm certainly not in favour of it, but it is a reality of living in a giant sandbox. I use "sandbox" to invoke an idea of the dynamic of children and their "politics" in said sandbox, that and we have all been there. The big kid gets what he wants, not for right, rather for might.

Ok, so what I'm saying is the superpowers of the world have the run of things right now, so other nations will, by our very nature consider how unfair it is, and it is, terribly. The good news (depending on where you are) is things do change, albeit slowly, chances are, there will be many more cycles of this, the U.S. will eventually lose its dominace, and some other country will come into power, history is quite clear on this...
Maybe one day, Canada will be the big prick of the world...your right, not gonna happen!

5. Hamas winning the elections, good on 'em!
Hopefully they can find comman ground, and I agree with Mr. Ashfuq it seems the U.S wants its cake & get to eat it, not likely!

6.Israel & nukes, zionists & the arabs who love to hate them...I suspect if Israel had no nukes, no doubt they would have been rubbed out by now, I am certainly not saying I agree with how Israel operates, not so much! I do see the Palistinian's plight, and I hope there is some resolution there without turning the middle east into a giant glass furnace. The arab states are not without fault either, and in the big picture, they need to either get along, or perish, and it is a good bet there will be no winners eventualy (see glass furnace comment). Iran and nukes, seems like a path to destruction for all conserned, I am really glad we live opposite the impending storm, and Mr. Ashfaq from India is quite right to be concerned, his country is too close to this desert armeggeddon, your people will suffer, and I suspect they will not care about whos right or wrong at that point.

Phew! Next time Mr Ashfaq, please elaborate on your questions...now that was a joke!

I hope I have given you some insight into the burning questions, from a heathen Westerner as well! I do not think the brash folks on this board insulting you do us justice, as well, you must as well learn to temper yourself, lest you get into stupid bikering, where the point is lost, things become personal, sharing ideas with our brothers accross the world can only help in understanding, I'm sure you can agree with that!
P.S. Ghandi rocks!

60 Ashfaq: Sorry bout the crazy numeric screw up, the message board if freaking out about something with my # 2. Answer, I'll try again...


2. As for the what happened in WWII, events happened, and ones belief (or not) do not change what has happened, I say feel free to deny whatever you like, history will go on regardless, and it is on record that a lot of folks think it was fake, that is now history as well. Points of view are taken, recorded, whatever! Personaly, I belive in the extermination, as I have several sources (Grandfathers) who were actually there, have photos, and grim stories. But I also realize perception for a lot of folks is reality, take me, I am beliving in the atrocities on account of my grandfathers testiment (not even looking at books/media on the subject, just grandpa(s). My perception is a certain way, and it is still a notion, a preception, as I personally was not there, so it works both ways. Hope that helps some!

Again, apologies to Mr Ashfaq for the confusing threads!

61 All of you need to take up Buddhism...youll live longer.

62 مرحبا ، هذا محمّد (سلام على ي ، أجل!). أنا يضطرّ قلت أنت الحقيقة - إسلام تمويه. هناك ما من الله. آسفة.

63 أيضا ، يحبّ أنا دانمرك.

64 Wait, let me see if I understand this...your name is really ASHFAQ? Is it just a coincidence that it closely resembles ASS FUCK? as in muslims are the ASS FUCK of society?

65 *cringe*

Mr.Ashfaq: Don't let the trolls bait you!
Please reply to my comments re: your questions.

Its hard to soar like and eagle when your hangin' around a bunch of turkey's! -quote, some coffee mug...it's very applicable!

66 what is your point, loool?

really, can you speak intelligently?

67 All Jew's must death!!!!

68 I believe that should be "All Jews must die!!!!" having the ' makes the "Jew" possessive of "must". Also, death is a noun. You are looking for a verb.




By the way,
Fuck you

69 Can't wait to join the contest
Let's see how far "Free Speech" can go in this world >

70 Mr. Invisible man,

I shall give you reply soon. As I am busy with my work I cant respond now. We will meet soon. Please give me your e-mail ID.

Ashfaq

71 Mr. Invisible man,

I shall give you reply soon. As I am busy with my work I cant respond now. We will meet soon. Please give me your e-mail ID.

Regarding the comment by Loool, his comment reflect how cultureless he is. Replying in the same language is not on my agenda. Because Islam prohibits such abusive language. IT also prhohibits calling a person by his nick name. May Allah show you the path of rightousness.

Ashfaq

72 Dear friends i was browsing your comments, and I found that
1. We must respect every ones faith
2.If you think Muhammed (PBUH), Cartoons makes you proud, I would suggest read About Life of Muhammed (PBUH), if any one of you, who deos not not know Muhammed (PBUH), have read and have the same opinion I would pray that Allah guide you.
3. Muhammed (PBUH), brought message of peace, to this world, we believe in every prophet, whether Jesus,Abrahm, david etc
4. We can never, ever mock any of our prophets.
5. If there is anything wrong done we all must wake up and condemn.
6. Jews, are more closer to muslim then christains, we know them they have always been problem makers, you christains knew this but don't wanna wake up , I am never against jews but against their venomous thinking. One day they will wipe europe or america and they will remove eurocaust or americaust from histry.
7.And remember no one can send missles or tom hawks against us, no one can wipe Islam, as this world is made for Islam, if we are not there, there is no meaning of any living creatures.
8. I want to answer one more comment of my bros, don't buy oil try taking it from us, you tried in iraq , but what happened, you are loosing much then you are able to take.
9. Every nation have few people who are terrorist but you can't blame a nation or religion I beleive not all jews are bad, like not all muslims are terrorists
10. Europeans wake up, I know Americans are in process of being alert from Isreal.

11. I don't support halocaust, or in favour of it whether it happened, as you european have killed more muslims in last 5 years then halocuast.
12. Muhammed (PBUH), is above all human kind so i believe we must repsect using abusive language.
13. be decent in expalinging your point others will listen
13.One more thing, we dont eat from money of petrol, if you would like visit us, we are more capable them all of the europe and america coe to india, we will show you how we eat, you people in US and europe are roaming like mad dogs in search of talents there.

73 Majid do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the one true living God. Not Gabrial or Lucifer disguised as Gabriel.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=9&context=chapter

74 Mr. Ashfaq: Please reply on this thread to my comments, when you have the time!
Thanks!

Majid: Thanks for your comments & shining a little decency in a rather low-brow thread.
From an atheists point of view (mine), it is hard to wrap my head around religon of any stripe, and I realize for any of you to be a true beliver, you gotta have faith. Faith, unfortunatly for me, directly equates to applied ignorance, in that, you are following religous doctrine instead of comman sense. No where else can you get away with this. As well, the world has a lot of religons, all of them cannot be right, so it stands to reason, in the great scheme of things, some must be dead wrong. In fact, if you took all the concieved notions of religon, it is more likely (in cosmic terms) that we are way off. If there are such greater beings (god/gods), it also stands to reason we know nothing of them/him/her.

I mean, consider how religons are started, way back when, most things could not be understood, which is a problem for humans, as we like to quantify & label all things, curiosity. So, lets take a hypothetical trip back in time to when man was still a hunter/gatherer, lived in loose villages, there very beginning of the "code".

Perhaps a hunter kills a deer, and at that moment, a lightning storm erupts violently, scaring the poor hunter. He runs back and relays his tale to the chief. He determines the "sky" was angry that the hunter killed that deer, so from then on, the villagers sacraficed an animal to the skygod, before they hunt again...wouldn't ya know it, the sky is clear, the hunt goes on, and the root of religon has been born.

I digress, I could go on at length about the nature of religon, but realistically, I know I am changing no ones mind, in fact, certain to offend some religous folks, althought, that is not my intention. It is very difficult to talk religon with religous folks, as they usually cannot muster critical thinking on there own religon (and there are volumes to why that is!), as anything but the religous line would seem blasphemous, or worse, enlightening!

75 Dear Mr. Invisible Man inthe Sky and all my Christian brothers and Jews, read this article about Prophet Mohammed, written by a HINDU.


Mohammed The Prophet
By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy,
Government College for Women University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika).

Re-printed from "Islam and Modern age", Hydrabad, March 1978.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the desert of Arabia was Mohammad born, according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571. The name means highly praised. He is to me the greatest mind among all the sons of Arabia. He means so much more than all the poets and kings that preceded him in that impenetrable desert of red sand.
When he appeared Arabia was a desert -- a nothing. Out of nothing a new world was fashioned by the mighty spirit of Mohammad -- a new life, a new culture, a new civilization, a new kingdom which extended from Morocco to Indies and influenced the thought and life of three continents -- Asia, Africa and Europe.

When I thought of writing on Mohammad the prophet, I was a bit hesitant because it was to write about a religion I do not profess and it is a delicate matter to do so for there are many persons professing various religions and belonging to diverse school of thought and denominations even in same religion. Though it is sometimes, claimed that religion is entirely personal yet it can not be gain-said that it has a tendency to envelop the whole universe seen as well unseen. It somehow permeates something or other our hearts, our souls, our minds their conscious as well as subconscious and unconscious levels too. The problem assumes overwhelming importance when there is a deep conviction that our past, present and future all hang by the soft delicate, tender silked cord. If we further happen to be highly sensitive, the center of gravity is very likely to be always in a state of extreme tension. Looked at from this point of view, the less said about other religion the better. Let our religions be deeply hidden and embedded in the resistance of our innermost hearts fortified by unbroken seals on our lips.

But there is another aspect of this problem. Man lives in society. Our lives are bound with the lives of others willingly or unwillingly, directly or indirectly. We eat the food grown in the same soil, drink water, from the same the same spring and breathe the same air. Even while staunchly holding our own views, it would be helpful, if we try to adjust ourselves to our surroundings, if we also know to some extent, how the mind our neighbor moves and what the main springs of his actions are. From this angle of vision it is highly desirable that one should try to know all religions of the world, in the proper sprit, to promote mutual understanding and better appreciation of our neighborhood, immediate and remote.

Further, our thoughts are not scattered as appear to be on the surface. They have got themselves crystallized around a few nuclei in the form of great world religions and living faiths that guide and motivate the lives of millions that inhabit this earth of ours. It is our duty, in one sense if we have the ideal of ever becoming a citizen of the world before us, to make a little attempt to know the great religions and system of philosophy that have ruled mankind.

In spite of these preliminary remarks, the ground in these field of religion, where there is often a conflict between intellect and emotion is so slippery that one is constantly reminded of fools that rush in where angels fear to tread. It is also not so complex from another point of view. The subject of my writing is about the tenets of a religion which is historic and its prophet who is also a historic personality. Even a hostile critic like Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Quran says that. "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text." I may also add Prophet Mohammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.

My work today is further lightened because those days are fast disappearing when Islam was highly misrepresented by some of its critics for reasons political and otherwise. Prof. Bevan writes in Cambridge Medieval History, "Those account of Mohammad and Islam which were published in Europe before the beginning of 19th century are now to be regarded as literary curiosities." My problem is to write this monograph is easier because we are now generally not fed on this kind of history and much time need be spent on pointing out our misrepresentation of Islam.

The theory of Islam and Sword for instance is not heard now frequently in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion is well known. Gibbon, a historian of world repute says, "A pernicious tenet has been imputed to Mohammadans, the duty of extirpating all the religions by sword." This charge based on ignorance and bigotry, says the eminent historian, is refuted by Quran, by history of Musalman conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship. The great success of Mohammad's life had been effected by sheer moral force, without a stroke of sword.

But in pure self-defense, after repeated efforts of conciliation had utterly failed, circumstances dragged him into the battlefield. But the prophet of Islam changed the whole strategy of the battlefield. The total number of casualties in all the wars that took place during his lifetime when the whole Arabian Peninsula came under his banner, does not exceed a few hundreds in all. But even on the battlefield he taught the Arab barbarians to pray, to pray not individually, but in congregation to God the Almighty. During the dust and storm of warfare whenever the time for prayer came, and it comes five times a every day, the congregation prayer had not to be postponed even on the battlefield. A party had to be engaged in bowing their heads before God while other was engaged with the enemy. After finishing the prayers, the two parties had to exchange their positions. To the Arabs, who would fight for forty years on the slight provocation that a camel belonging to the guest of one tribe had strayed into the grazing land belonging to other tribe and both sides had fought till they lost 70,000 lives in all; threatening the extinction of both the tribes to such furious Arabs, the Prophet of Islam taught self-control and discipline to the extent of praying even on the battlefield. In an aged of barbarism, the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad's heart flowed with affection and he declared, "This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free." "This day" he proclaimed, "I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man."

This was one of the chief objects why he permitted war in self defense, that is to unite human beings. And when once this object was achieved, even his worst enemies were pardoned. Even those who killed his beloved uncle, Hamazah, mangled his body, ripped it open, even chewed a piece of his liver.

The principles of universal brotherhood and doctrine of the equality of mankind which he proclaimed represents one very great contribution of Mohammad to the social uplift of humanity. All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence.

Miss. Sarojini Naidu speaking about this aspect of Islam says, "It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great." The great poetess of India continues, "I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another."

Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says "Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded."

Every year, during the Haj, the world witnesses the wonderful spectacle of this international Exhibition of Islam in leveling all distinctions of race, color and rank. Not only the Europeans, the African, the Arabian, the Persian, the Indians, the Chinese all meet together in Medina as members of one divine family, but they are clad in one dress every person in two simple pieces of white seamless cloth, one piece round the loin the other piece over the shoulders, bare head without pomp or ceremony, repeating "Here am I O God; at thy command; thou art one and alone; Here am I." Thus there remains nothing to differentiate the high from the low and every pilgrim carries home the impression of the international significance of Islam.

In the opinion of Prof. Hurgronje "the league of nations founded by prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity of human brotherhood on such Universal foundations as to show candle to other nations." In the words of same Professor "the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done the realization of the idea of the League of Nations."

The prophet of Islam brought the reign of democracy in its best form. The Caliph Caliph Ali and the son in-law of the prophet, the Caliph Mansur, Abbas, the son of Caliph Mamun and many other caliphs and kings had to appear before the judge as ordinary men in Islamic courts. Even today we all know how the black Negroes were treated by the civilized white races. Consider the state of BILAL, a Negro Slave, in the days of the prophet of Islam nearly 14 centuries ago. The office of calling Muslims to prayer was considered to be of status in the early days of Islam and it was offered to this Negro slave. After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered him to call for prayer and the Negro slave, with his black color and his thick lips, stood over the roof of the holy mosque at Mecca called the Ka'ba the most historic and the holiest mosque in the Islamic world, when some proud Arabs painfully cried loud, "Oh, this black Negro Slave, woe be to him. He stands on the roof of holy Ka'ba to call for prayer." At that moment, the prophet announced to the world, this verse of the holy QURAN for the first time.


"O mankind, surely we have created you, families and tribes, so you may know one another.
Surely, the most honorable of you with God is MOST RIGHTEOUS AMONG you.
Surely, God is Knowing, Aware."

And these words of the holy Quran created such a mighty transformation that the Caliph of Islam, the purest of Arabs by birth, offered their daughter in marriage to this Negro Slave, and whenever, the second Caliph of Islam, known to history as Umar the great, the commander of faithful, saw this Negro slave, he immediately stood in reverence and welcomed him by "Here come our master; Here come our lord." What a tremendous change was brought by Quran in the Arabs, the proudest people at that time on the earth. This is the reason why Goethe, the greatest of German poets, speaking about the Holy Quran declared that, "This book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence." This is also the reason why George Bernard Shaw says, "If any religion has a chance or ruling over England, say, Europe, within the next 100 years, it is Islam".
It is this same democratic spirit of Islam that emancipated women from the bondage of man. Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton says "Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man and woman and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual and moral attainments."

The Arabs had a very strong tradition that one who can smite with the spear and can wield the sword would inherit. But Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled women to share the inheritance of their parents. It gave women, centuries ago right of owning property, yet it was only 12 centuries later , in 1881, that England, supposed to be the cradle of democracy adopted this institution of Islam and the act was called "the married woman act", but centuries earlier, the Prophet of Islam had proclaimed that "Woman are twin halves of men. The rights of women are sacred. See that women maintained rights granted to them."

Islam is not directly concerned with political and economic systems, but indirectly and in so far as political and economic affairs influence man's conduct, it does lay down some very important principles to govern economic life. According to Prof. Massignon, it maintains the balance between exaggerated opposites and has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization. This is secured by its law of inheritance, by an organized system of charity known as Zakat, and by regarding as illegal all anti-social practices in the economic field like monopoly, usury, securing of predetermined unearned income and increments, cornering markets, creating monopolies, creating an artificial scarcity of any commodity in order to force the prices to rise. Gambling is illegal. Contribution to schools, to places of worship, hospitals, digging of wells, opening of orphanages are highest acts of virtue. Orphanages have sprung for the first time, it is said, under the teaching of the prophet of Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this prophet born an orphan. "Good all this" says Carlyle about Mohammad. "The natural voice of humanity, of pity and equity, dwelling in the heart of this wild son of nature, speaks."

A historian once said a great man should be judged by three tests: Was he found to be of true metel by his contemporaries ? Was he great enough to raise above the standards of his age ? Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large ? This list may be further extended but all these three tests of greatness are eminently satisfied to the highest degree in case of prophet Mohammad. Some illustrations of the last two have already been mentioned.

The first is: Was the Prophet of Islam found to be of true metel by his contemporaries?

Historical records show that all the contemporaries of Mohammad both friends foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity and every trustworthiness of the apostle of Islam in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality. Even those who did not believe in his message were forced to say "O Mohammad, we do not call you a liar, but we deny him who has given you a book and inspired you with a message." They thought he was one possessed. They tried violence to cure him. But the best of them saw that a new light had dawned on him and they hastened him to seek the enlightenment. It is a notable feature in the history of prophet of Islam that his nearest relation, his beloved cousin and his bosom friends, who know him most intimately, were not thoroughly imbued with the truth of his mission and were convinced of the genuineness of his divine inspiration. If these men and women, noble, intelligent, educated and intimately acquainted with his private life had perceived the slightest signs of deception, fraud, earthliness, or lack of faith in him, Mohammad's moral hope of regeneration, spiritual awakening, and social reform would all have been foredoomed to a failure and whole edifice would have crumbled to pieces in a moment. On the contrary, we find that devotion of his followers was such that he was voluntarily acknowledged as dictator of their lives. They braved for him persecutions and danger; they trusted, obeyed and honored him even in the most excruciating torture and severest mental agony caused by excommunication even unto death. Would this have been so, had they noticed the slightest backsliding in their master?

Read the history of the early converts to Islam, and every heart would melt at the sight of the brutal treatment of innocent Muslim men and women.

Sumayya, an innocent women, is cruelly torn into pieces with spears. An example is made of "Yassir whose legs are tied to two camels and the beast were are driven in opposite directions", Khabbab bin Arth is made lie down on the bed of burning coal with the brutal legs of their merciless tyrant on his breast so that he may not move and this makes even the fat beneath his skin melt. "Khabban bin Adi is put to death in a cruel manner by mutilation and cutting off his flesh piece-meal." In the midst of his tortures, being asked weather he did not wish Mohammad in his place while he was in his house with his family, the sufferer cried out that he was gladly prepared to sacrifice himself his family and children and why was it that these sons and daughters of Islam not only surrendered to their prophet their allegiance but also made a gift of their hearts and souls to their master? Is not the intense faith and conviction on part of immediate followers of Mohammad, the noblest testimony to his sincerity and to his utter self-absorption in his appointed task?

And these men were not of low station or inferior mental caliber. Around him in quite early days, gathered what was best and noblest in Mecca, its flower and cream, men of position, rank, wealth and culture, and from his own kith and kin, those who knew all about his life. All the first four Caliphs, with their towering personalities, were converts of this period.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that "Mohammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities".

But the success was not the result of mere accident. It was not a hit of fortune. It was a recognition of fact that he was found to be true metal by his contemporaries. It was the result of his admirable and all compelling personality.

The personality of Mohammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Mohammad the Prophet, there is Mohammad the General; Mohammad the King; Mohammad the Warrior; Mohammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Orator; Mohammad the reformer; Mohammad the Refuge of orphans; Mohammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of women; Mohammad the Law-giver; Mohammad the Judge; Mohammad the Saint.

And in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like, a hero..

Orphanhood is extreme of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of the material power and it ended with it. From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and Arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its up and downs, its terror and splendor, he has stood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions.

If for instance, greatness consist in the purification of a nation, steeped in barbarism and immersed in absolute moral darkness, that dynamic personality who has transformed, refined and uplifted an entire nation, sunk low as the Arabs were, and made them the torch-bearer of civilization and learning, has every claim to greatness. If greatness lies in unifying the discordant elements of society by ties of brotherhood and charity, the prophet of the desert has got every title to this distinction. If greatness consists in reforming those warped in degrading and blind superstition and pernicious practices of every kind, the prophet of Islam has wiped out superstitions and irrational fear from the hearts of millions. If it lies in displaying high morals, Mohammad has been admitted by friend and foe as Al Amin, or the faithful. If a conqueror is a great man, here is a person who rose from helpless orphan and an humble creature to be the ruler of Arabia, the equal to Chosroes and Caesars, one who founded great empire that has survived all these 14 centuries. If the devotion that a leader commands is the criterion of greatness, the prophet's name even today exerts a magic charm over millions of souls, spread all over the world.

He had not studied philosophy in the school of Athens of Rome, Persia, India, or China. Yet, He could proclaim the highest truths of eternal value to mankind. Illiterate himself, he could yet speak with an eloquence and fervor which moved men to tears, to tears of ecstasy. Born an orphan blessed with no worldly goods, he was loved by all. He had studied at no military academy; yet he could organize his forces against tremendous odds and gained victories through the moral forces which he marshaled. Gifted men with genius for preaching are rare. Descartes included the perfect preacher among the rarest kind in the world. Hitler in his Mein Kamp has expressed a similar view. He says "A great theorist is seldom a great leader. An Agitator is more likely to posses these qualities. He will always be a great leader. For leadership means ability to move masses of men. The talents to produce ideas has nothing in common with capacity for leadership." "But", he says, "The Union of theorists, organizer and leader in one man, is the rarest phenomenon on this earth; Therein consists greatness."

In the person of the Prophet of Islam the world has seen this rarest phenomenon walking on the earth, walking in flesh and blood.

And more wonderful still is what the reverend Bosworth Smith remarks, "Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without an standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine It was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."

After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet, Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the hearth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew wealthy in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia, His food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soften bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting with tears before his creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp.

Circumstances changed, but the prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable.

An honest man, as the saying goes, is the noblest work of God, Mohammad was more than honest. He was human to the marrow of his bones. Human sympathy, human love was the music of his soul. To serve man, to elevate man, to purify man, to educate man, in a word to humanize man-this was the object of his mission, the be-all and end all of his life. In thought, in word, in action he had the good of humanity as his sole inspiration, his sole guiding principle.

He was most unostentatious and selfless to the core. What were the titles he assumed? Only true servant of God and His Messenger. Servant first, and then a messenger. A Messenger and prophet like many other prophets in every part of the world, some known to you, many not known you. If one does not believe in any of these truths one ceases to be a Muslim. It is an article of faith.

"Looking at the circumstances of the time and unbounded reverence of his followers" says a western writer "the most miraculous thing about Mohammad is, that he never claimed the power of working miracles." Miracles were performed but not to propagate his faith and were attributed entirely to God and his inscrutable ways. He would plainly say that he was a man like others. He had no treasures of earth or heaven. Nor did he claim to know the secrets of that lie in womb of future. All this was in an age when miracles were supposed to be ordinary occurrences, at the back and call of the commonest saint, when the whole atmosphere was surcharged with supernaturalism in Arabia and outside Arabia.

He turned the attention of his followers towards the study of nature and its laws, to understand them and appreciate the Glory of God. The Quran says,

"God did not create the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in play. He did not create them all but with the truth. But most men do not know."
The world is not illusion, nor without purpose. It has been created with the truth. The number of verses inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this give birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. While the Muslim Botanist Ibn Baitar wrote on Botany after collecting plants from all parts of the world, described by Myer in his Gesch. der Botanikaa-s, a monument of industry, while Al Byruni traveled for forty years to collect mineralogical specimens, and Muslim Astronomers made some observations extending even over twelve years. Aristotle wrote on Physics without performing a single experiment, wrote on natural history, carelessly stating without taking the trouble to ascertain the most verifiable fact that men have more teeth than animal. Galen, the greatest authority on classical anatomy informed that the lower jaw consists of two bones, a statement which is accepted unchallenged for centuries till Abdul Lateef takes the trouble to examine a human skeleton. After enumerating several such instances, Robert Priffault concludes in his well known book The making of humanity, "The debt of our science to the Arabs does not consist in starting discovers or revolutionary theories. Science owes a great more to Arabs culture; it owes is existence." The same writer says "The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized but patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to Greek temperament. What we call science arose in Europe as result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these methods, concludes the same author, were introduced into the European world by Arabs."
It is the same practical character of the teaching of Prophet Mohammad that gave birth to the scientific spirit, that has also sanctified the daily labors and the so called mundane affairs. The Quran says that God has created man to worship him but the word worship has a connotation of its own. Gods worship is not confined to prayer alone, but every act that is done with the purpose of winning approval of God and is for the benefit of the humanity comes under its purview. Islam sanctifies life and all its pursuits provided they are performed with honesty, justice and pure intents. It obliterates the age-long distinction between the sacred and profane. The Quran says if you eat clean things and thank God for it, it is an act of worship. It is saying of the prophet of Islam that Morsel of food that one places in the mouth of his wife is an act of virtue to be rewarded by God. Another tradition of the Prophet says "He who is satisfying the desire of his heart will be rewarded by God provided the methods adopted are permissible." A person was listening to him exclaimed 'O Prophet of God, he is answering the calls of passions, is only satisfying the craving of his heart. Forthwith came the reply, "Had he adopted an awful method for the satisfaction of his urge, he would have been punished; then why should he not be rewarded for following the right course."

This new conception of religion that it should also devote itself to the betterment of this life rather than concern itself exclusively with super mundane affairs, has led to a new orientation of moral values. Its abiding influence on the common relations of mankind in the affairs of every day life, its deep power over the masses, its regulation of their conception of rights and duty, its suitability and adaptability to the ignorant savage and the wise philosopher are characteristic features of the teaching of the Prophet of Islam.

But it should be most carefully born in mind this stress on good actions is not the sacrifice correctness of faith. While there are various school of thought, one praising faith at the expense of deeds, another exhausting various acts to the detriment of correct belief, Islam is based on correct faith and righteous actions. Means are important as the end and ends are as important as the means. It is an organic Unity. Together they live and thrive. Separate them and both decay and die. In Islam faith can not be divorced from the action. Right knowledge should be transferred into right action to produce the right results. How often the words came in Quran -- Those who believe and do good thing, they alone shall enter paradise. Again and again, not less than fifty times these words are repeated as if too much stress can not be laid on them. Contemplation is encouraged but mere contemplation is not the goal. Those who believe and do nothing can not exist in Islam. These who believe and do wrong are inconceivable. Divine law is the law of effort and not of ideals. It chalks out for the men the path of eternal progress from knowledge to action and from action to satisfaction.

But what is the correct faith from which right action spontaneously proceeds resulting in complete satisfaction. Here the central doctrine of Islam is the Unity of God. There is no God but God is the pivot from which hangs the whole teaching and practice of Islam. He is unique not only as regards his divine being but also as regards his divine attributes.

As regards the attributes of God, Islam adopts here as in other things too, the law of golden mean. It avoids on the one hand, the view of God which divests the divine being of every attribute and rejects, on the other, the view which likens him to things material. The Quran says, On the one hand, there is nothing which is like him, on the other , it affirms that he is Seeing, Hearing, Knowing. He is the King who is without a stain of fault or deficiency, the mighty ship of His power floats upon the ocean of justice and equity. He is the Beneficent, the Merciful. He is the Guardian over all. Islam does not stop with this positive statement. It adds further which is its most special characteristic, the negative aspects of problem. There is also no one else who is guardian over everything. He is the meander of every breakage, and no one else is the meander of any breakage. He is the restorer of every loss and no one else is the restorer of any loss what-so-over. There is no God but one God, above any need, the maker of bodies, creator of souls, the Lord of the day of judgment, and in short, in the words of Quran, to him belong all excellent qualities.

Regarding the position of man in relation to the Universe, the Quran says:

"God has made subservient to you whatever is on the earth or in universe. You are destined to rule over the Universe."

But in relation to God, the Quran says:
"O man God has bestowed on you excellent faculties and has created life and death to put you to test in order to see whose actions are good and who has deviated from the right path."
In spite of free will which he enjoys, to some extent, every man is born under certain circumstances and continues to live under certain circumstances beyond his control. With regard to this God says, according to Islam, it is my will to create any man under condition that seem best to me. cosmic plans finite mortals can not fully comprehend. But I will certainly test you in prosperity as well in adversity, in health as well as in sickness, in heights as well as in depths. My ways of testing differ from man to man, from hour to hour. In adversity do not despair and do resort to unlawful means. It is but a passing phase. In prosperity do not forget God. God-gifts are given only as trusts. You are always on trial, every moment on test. In this sphere of life there is not to reason why, there is but to do and die. If you live in accordance with God; and if you die, die in the path of God. You may call it fatalism. but this type of fatalism is a condition of vigorous increasing effort, keeping you ever on the alert. Do not consider this temporal life on earth as the end of human existence. There is a life after death and it is eternal. Life after death is only a connection link, a door that opens up hidden reality of life. Every action in life however insignificant, produces a lasting effect. It is correctly recorded somehow. Some of the ways of God are known to you, but many of his ways are hidden from you. What is hidden in you and from you in this world will be unrolled and laid open before you in the next. the virtuous will enjoy the blessing of God which the eye has not seen, nor has the ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men to conceive of they will march onward reaching higher and higher stages of evolution. Those who have wasted opportunity in this life shall under the inevitable law, which makes every man taste of what he has done, be subjugated to a course of treatment of the spiritual diseases which they have brought about with their own hands. Beware, it is terrible ordeal. Bodily pain is torture, you can bear somehow. Spiritual pain is hell, you will find it almost unbearable. Fight in this life itself the tendencies of the spirit prone to evil, tempting to lead you into iniquities ways. Reach the next stage when the self-accusing sprit in your conscience is awakened and the soul is anxious to attain moral excellence and revolt against disobedience. This will lead you to the final stage of the soul at rest, contented with God, finding its happiness and delight in him alone. The soul no more stumbles. The stage of struggle passes away. Truth is victorious and falsehood lays down its arms. All complexes will then be resolved. Your house will not be divided against itself. Your personality will get integrated round the central core of submission to the will of God and complete surrender to his divine purpose. All hidden energies will then be released. The soul then will have peace. God will then address you:

"O thou soul that art at rest, and restest fully contented with thy Lord return to thy Lord. He pleased with thee and thou pleased with him; So enter among my servants and enter into my paradise."

This is the final goal for man; to become, on the, one hand, the master of the universe and on the other, to see that his soul finds rest in his Lord, that not only his Lord will be pleased with him but that he is also pleased with his Lord. Contentment, complete contentment, satisfaction, complete satisfaction, peace, complete peace. The love of God is his food at this stage and he drinks deep at the fountain of life. Sorrow and defeat do not overwhelm him and success does not find him in vain and exulting.
The western nations are only trying to become the master of the Universe. But their souls have not found peace and rest.

Thomas Carlyle, struck by this philosophy of life writes "and then also Islam-that we must submit to God; that our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever he does to us, the thing he sends to us, even if death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God." The same author continues "If this be Islam, says Goethe, do we not all live in Islam?" Carlyle himself answers this question of Goethe and says "Yes, all of us that have any moral life, we all live so. This is yet the highest wisdom that heaven has revealed to our earth."


Azmat N. Khan
Sponsored by the MSA.

76 WoW!

That was a long and intersting answer Mr. Ashfaq!
Good thing I made a tea!
I found the bit about the sciences and how Mohammed crafted the islamic application to higher learning key, good stuff that!

It was not the reply I was looking for though, as I was originally replying to several of your points, specifically. But very good insite into Islam nonetheless.

The Code
Reading that I was struck (in my heathen mind) with the feeling that Islam is same as other religons, in that, while they all have some elements of the code, it is mashed togather with superstition & myth of old. The code, is simply the original framework humans needed to follow to be successful when living in groups, animals do it to, with there own versions code.

These things are, well, things that seem wrong, killing folks, stealing, these are wrong no matter what you belive, correct?

Enter any religon, and the code now comes with stories, to help understand & illustrate the codes obvious rules. Sub-sets & contradiction come into play, interuprations and reality is split, from day to day living, and notions of judging gods that oversee ones every move (that sounds a lot like Santa Claus...!)

In a way, the religous notion of the code effectively makes the beliver imediatly subserviant to the going doctrine, elinating free will to a degree, lest he be eternaly damned...I think that is a very affective way of enforcement.

But it is frightening zealotry that is terrible, warring over religous ideologies, and the faithful follow the directions of apparently a Universal intelligence, who does not give interviews.

If I can just vear off wickedly and pose another interesting hypothetical question, it may seem slightly absurb, but please, humour me!

What would be the faithfuls answer to other civilzations somewhere in space?

Ok, now what if said aliens had a different religon, but theirs is like, a million years old, and seems to be providing some real results.

Would you bail & go to the obviously more divine?

What if they are all 80' tall, and don't want to be called a infidel, now what do you do!

Ok, a little bit of wackyness at the end, no reason we can't have it a little lighter sometimes!

77 The free press could take up Iranians on their desire to publish cartoons on the Holocaust. At first, the notion of a cartoon on the Holocaust seems blasphemous. But, on the second thought, there are some aspects of the Holocaust that could fit on a cartoon.
Imagine the pictures of:
1) The muifti of Jerusalem urging Hitler to implement the "final solution".
2) Free nations of Europe and America closing their doors to Jews trying to escapoe Nazis.
3) Good citizens of occupied countries gloating over the demise of Jews being herded to Ghettos, eager to seize their property.
4) British air force refusing to bomb the railroads to death camps: "There are more important targets..."
5) Nazi camp survivors being thrown by Bruitish to concentration camps for their desire to immigrate to Palestine.
6) A Swiss bank denying claims on Holocaust victims' life insurances: "Where are the death certificates from the camps?"
7) The late Simon Wiesenthal fishing Eichman out from his hiding place with a sarcastic remark like "There is no Iranian president out there yet to argue for your innocence!"
My favorite: Iranian president himself staring at many volumes of the Nuremberg tribunal documents, muttering: "Still, there is not enough evidence..."
I cannot draw. I offer these ideas free to any cartoonist talented enough to draw the cartoons, and to any newspaper courageous enough to publish them.

78 The point everyone seems to be missing here is that, The Europeans are doing something that is illigal in Islamic nations, now the Iranaian paper is going to do something thats illigal (prison illigal) in the west...

I basiclly go to a Jewish school, Have 100s of jewish friends but sadlly the Iranian paper is making a very convincing argument.

Btw, dont be iggorant rambling on thinking Iran is a 2nd Germany (WW2), In Iran there is a jewish repesentative in parliment, also a christian representative, well presented compaired to the 98% muslim population of the country...

Peace, and always check ur facts.

79 here on earth everything changes with time but over the years that man has walked this planet his thought has not evolved.
mankind still fights for justice.
but for justice to function requires a timeless environment. an environment that leaves no void for a need to change in time. but here on earth everything changes with time.
justice can only be acheived when there is timelessness...

80 Ashfaq.

According to your lengthy tirade about Mohammed, I find it strangely coincidental that Mohammed and one Adolf Hitler seem to share the same birthday. Both were born on April 20, 571 and April 20, 1889 respectively. Just a little nugget of historical fact. Maybe someone should make a cartoon about that and kill two birds with one stone.

1 No No No No!

Besides the possible future danger (albeit slight I believe) - the real risk is this being the new govt's verion of the Murial boatlift!

There is a big purge shaping up inside that country - and this will give them a chance to get rid of portions of the secular opposition - who will flee given the right incentive and a place they would want to go to.

No No No No! Iranians! Deal with your own future in your own country! This would only take some of the pressure off the mullahs and the govt!

2 I was kind of thinking they want to put a nuke in the baggage area myself.

Or rip out the seats and put a couple-three in there.

Then again, I am in the middle of the 24 season two DVD set, so maybe I'm just having delusions based on fiction.

But, Islamotards like Ahmagonnameetallah aren't known for their inventiveness. Otherwise, Osama would have made his own guided missiles to take down the Twin Towers and he could have saved the manpower for The Great Battle.

3 Nah Vinnie, I'd say you're pretty much dead on.

1 Wow, they put a lot more stock in the UNSC than I do.

2 So far its still internal tough talk to the choir.

I am leery of this whole Iran thing. This whole nuclear thing involves their deliberate flouting of International/United Nations Treaties. The failure is theirs and I am uncomfortable being the muscle to prop them up and give them crediblity.

Whatever happens - it has to be unilateral - for our own reasons and for our own goals.

3 We as a nation much watch Irans jesters closely ,they said Israel must be wiped off the face of the map,and we all know that Israel will not accept Iran being a nucleur power,we car ebecause when they act ,they muslim world will condem and side with Iran,will the west including the U.S. will protect Israel,WW3, in the worst way,we must stop them before they can sell the technoligy on the black market,our sons and daughters will pay the pice if we do nothing

4 Let em cut off the oil. I would gladly pay 12 bucks a gallon if need be to see this greasy fucker squirm in the sand.

5 Suspect we are looking at a regional "Cold War" developing over the next few years. Could get Hot, but might be containable. Maybe someone should start working up some potential environmental and economic impact studies. The oil will still be there - most of the regional populations would however be dead or sick & starving. Might be bearable to much of the rest of the world - 'cept the 3rd world of course - no oil, no outside money, resourses etc - they would be screwed and drop like flies too.

Who knows? Maybe there is a silver lining here somewhere.

6 There could be a silver lining, if the USA has the political will to do what is necessary, which I believe is turn off the spigot on Iranian oil.I think that doing so would also show the other OPEC countries what our real power is. After Iran buckles to sanity I would then go right down the list: Nigeria no more fraud/spam : Sudan get nice in Dafur: Saudi Arabia Just say no to Terror Financing: Kuwait hey where is that democracy that was supposed to happen after Gulf War I ?

7 I guess if they shut down their oil exports, a lot of Americans are going to quickly know where Canada is...

8 Yeah, they'll probably be syphoning oil from our cars through straws. friggan OIL BANDITS.

9 John Ryan

You tend to babble senselessly - I have absolutely no clue what point you think you were trying to make. Try again type slowly.

10 Another silver lining!

International Treaties, the United Nations - they are the ones on the line as useless and irrelevant. could help bring about the collapse of the UN, EU and like. Then it would be every nation (or groups of nations (new alliances) for themselves. No one ever notices but we are in the best position to cope/deal with/ and profit from that.

11 To me, this is just an idiotic threat with no basis for being taken seriously. Blockading the Straits of Hormuz would be an overt act of war and the Iranian ships doing so would be obliterated quickly. Nobody, including the other oil producers, would support the blockade, since they couldn't sell their oil either. And, it would give Israel and the US a perfect excuse to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

So, I'd really love to see the morons try to pull it off. Things have been kind of boring lately.

12 Everyone keeps looking at this situation from the angle of the sane Western mind, i.e., war is a bad thing to be avoided if at all possible, but one must look at it from the point of view of the insane Middle Eastern muslim, i.e., war will bring about muslim dominance in the world. The people who are hatching these plots do not possess modern minds or civilized sensibilities, and they cannot be dealt with other than as madmen, i.e., killed as quickly as possible.

13 Maxie

Stay sane - and stay cool - thats the professional way to do things. If it comes down to war - stay sane and cool.

Are they insane? Maybe. Work it to your advantage - add it to the equation.

Global muslim dominance? Their bigest unspoken desire is to dominate each other - and slaughter each other as required. Their dream is a fantasy based on period a thousand years ago - by a Kurd no less - oh the irony!

14 "...killed as quickly as possible."
IM has my vote on that one. Lets just do what needs to be done here and get it over with. Why delay the inevitable?

15 I don't place much stock in the WW3 scenario - even though some might call it that. Our military technology is advancing exponentially. We're light years ahead of WW2 technology (or Gulf I for that matter) so the need for boots on the ground doesn't have to be necessary to step on every single bug.

The answer is to get Rusty to use his contacts to get in touch with Dale's Dead Bug. There are some vermin who have no redeeming value and must be exterminated.

The sooner we get the Death Star in orbit next to the Dish Network satellite to take care of these things remotely, the better.

Ahmadinejad: channel 117
Kim Jong Il: channel 234
Assad: we'll notify you when your account is ready

16 I just wanted to point out that I'm not a plagiarist. I was writing my reference to the Death Star above before the new jawa post at http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/153538.php or the link referenced in it.

Not that anyone cares ...

17 Not only is it unwise to attempt to delay the inevitable, because bad news does not get better with time, but it is in fact better to pre-empt it. The Iranians expect us to go through the whole rigamarole like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they know they can drag the whole thing out until they feel ready for it, so we should hit them now, hit them hard, and take Syria next.

18 Lets get it on and get in over. Going to happen sooner or later. Why not now? Git er done.

19 Excuse my spelling. Just finished a bottle of Bailey's Irish Cream in 10 minutes. Not my record, but Okay. Only in the land of the free. For everyone's info my son is home for 3 weeks and we are partying, fishing, eating and enjoying all the greatest nation on earth offers.

1 Dean is right. Millions died because nobody had the balls to face down Hitler before it was too late. How many must die now, when we have such bloody lessons from history from which we seemingly refuse to learn? The only option that can succeed is the military one. We must invade Iran, destroy the military to the last man and piece of equipment, kill all the mullahs, and allow real elections. Any other options will fail without question.

2 Additionally, just because this particular configuration of mullahs falls from power, it does not mean a new, more friendly Islamic regime is just going to pop up. And to be sure, it will be another Islamist regime. Ayatollah-Lite, maybe. Maybe more like Syria. You know, secular and safe. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

3 First we have to settle an issue with China and Russia. both have big new oil contracts. So some assurance or compensation will have to be given to bring them along. However Iran needs the oil money just as bad if not worse than the world needs the oil. We can and should call Iran's bluff on that one. We can make it longer without Irans oil than Iran can go without the money. Call em on it it will be tought but not as tough as eating sand like they will have to. The oil money keeps Iran fed so if it dries up and Iran cannot support the welfare state it has going now hunger and unrest will develop thus making a revolution more likely. I doubt we will ever be in a better position to use force if we have to that we are now. We have em boxed in. So fi they feel they are in a good postion we can feel just as good about our position.

4 Military action in Iran, YES. Unilaterally, NO. We can write the muslim world off for sure. But we need Western Europe this time, and the damn Democrats. Bush doesn't have the political capital to go this one alone, period. Going it alone would do us more harm than good. Read VDH's take. It's as grim as it gets:

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson.asp

5 Carlos, there is no Western Europe anymore. In case you haven't heard, they're all getting fitted for man-dresses, and arranging to sell their daughters to subhuman muslim scum.

6 Rusty, I hope you're right about this guy. The question is, is there some way to speed up the acceptance of reality?

7 IM,

you make an extremely valid point, even when you put it like that. I spoke with a Frenchman friend of a friend, and he essentially said that given France's large muslim minority, the French government's hands are essentially tied in matters of both internal and foreign policy. This is probably why the Left is so in love with massive muslim immigration to the West. There are no good choices left. It makes me sick to my stomach.

8 It's true Carlos, it's sadly true. There are not enough men left in Europe to do anything about it.

9 Isn't "European men" and oxymoron?

10 Iran is not Iraq or NK - it is a whole nother ballgame. Shit might eventually go down - but for now - stay cool and frosty.

I'm no pussy - but I know this situation is a bitch with no easy solution.

11 With what army? Looks like dubya invaded the country that had been contained, but not the other. Billiant!

12 Billiant!

13 actus,

it's called the AIR FORCE.

14 "it's called the AIR FORCE."

that's going to cause regime change? woah.

15 I imagine it would if we bombed an Iranian Presdential address to the Mullahs.

16 >>>that's going to cause regime change?

woah is right. I was thinking air strikes on their nukes.

17 actus

Its a difficult situation. Does it give you comfort that a radical islamic nation with an actual populist following and a deeply held religious belief of the apocalypse being the beginning of a new order - may well shortly develop nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them?

Granted - their means would be limited in scope and region - but is the real potential of a regional nuclear war appealing to you?

18 It seems to me that the best course of action is the one we are taking. Get other nations involved quickly, get sanctions in place, keep a very strong military presence & possibly state that US policy will be any attacks using WMDs on Israel or any other Western ally will be considered an attack on the US & will prompt a direct proportional response. Possibly bomb their nuclear sites – the ones we know of at least - & hope that internally a regime change occurs. The best pressure would be to have 2 very successful representative forms of government thrive politically & economically on either side of Iran & thus show the Iranian people that their leaders do not have their best interests at heart & are actually more of a hindrance. Until Iraq & Afghanistan thrive on their own, & independent of the US, the extreme anti-western ideologues within Iran (& the Middle as a whole) will still have a voice that is considered valid & just. Show that Islamic countries can adopt a representative approach to governing & involve their own people & succeed & no religious dogma or zealot will be able to argue differently & be creditable.

The scary part is waiting for these changes to complete & the reality to settle into the Middle Eastern mind. That is why I believe that Iran is in such a hurry to develop the weapons now. Also a press leak saying the 2 or 3 nuclear subs w/ missiles are sitting off-shore of Iran wouldn’t hurt. But the biggest asset we have is the fact we removed the largest, most aggressive Middle Eastern army, the Iraqi Army, in like 2 weeks & that Saddam was forced to hide out in a hole in the ground.

If the UN continues to drag its heels, then make it a NATO issue & involve our allies that way. I’d say do both & try to hurt Iran economically as hard as possible without looking like that is what we are doing.

19 This is not a regime that can be decapitated. Its built around a fanatically dedicated significant minority of believers - who curently have the support (sometimes tepid) of additional segments of Iranian society. Whatever opposition there is (and there is!) is currently isolated - but!!!... the opposition is not religiously motivated and more nationalistic! That is one dangerous combination!

The mullahs may end up wanting war and a means of national unity!

This is a tough one!

20 "woah is right. I was thinking air strikes on their nukes."

Oh. then something other than regime change.

"Granted - their means would be limited in scope and region - but is the real potential of a regional nuclear war appealing to you?"

A bit less than the potential of a global nuclear war. And we got throught that one. We'll hang in there. But the bedwetters will wet the bed.

21 If we invade Iran, U.S Soldiers will be beheaded on a daily basis. Iraq will like sunday school. Bush is already dealing with problems on Iraq.

22 Futher complicating everything ... this is a fanatical Shia regime - and the Shia and Sunni have been involved in their own "lil' cold war" for 1300 years! - and it has at times been vicious and ruthless! Don't for a moment believe this concerns only the US, West and Isreal.

23 actus

The global one - never actually occured. I'm talking about the real thing here. You feel comfortable being a bystander - I can understand that - but you sure do have a very high threshold for acceptable risks. If I thought for a moment it could be "contained" with minimal impact on US (let alone the rest of the world), I would agree - but I don't believe.

24 I mean if we invade Iran, Iraq will look like Sunday School.

25 That mutant guy looks like a memeber of PETA

26 I'm with you, Dean is jumping the gun. There are still some options that have not yet been explored. If the point of no return has not been hit, then there is still time, regardless of what the US Army War College has to say.

http://www.vitalperspective.com/thewestvsiranaminuteclosertomidnight.htm

27 You obviously have not seen beneath the planet of the apes sandpiper. I love how Rusty puts in little tidbits from my favorite movies and tv shows.

28 ". You feel comfortable being a bystander - I can understand that - but you sure do have a very high threshold for acceptable risks."

What does it matter whether I accept it or not?

29 There is a window of opportunity. If Iraq becomes a little more stabilized, and we begin moving our troops back to the US, then we will have a 1-2 year period to deal with the mad mullahs. What could be accomplished in that amount of time is hard to say, but another war on our own is out of the question.

The civilized world needs to get involved in this one, or it literally may be the end of the civilized world, and I'm not sure but that might be what these lunatics want. The ball is in the EU court, let's see what they do, remembering that we have a little time yet before we have to make a move. Granted, this will allow Iran to harden their nuclear facilities and hide much of what we seek, but it is a risk we will have to take.

30 actus

Sorry - I never figured you as essentially into nihilism.

31 actus

Oh - one more think ...

If that's your general outlook on things, then why do you even bother blogging?

32 "Sorry - I never figured you as essentially into nihilism."

With this administration it doesn't matter what level headed experts think, much less pinko homos like me.

33 Classic Nihilism

34 One thing I will not do is waste time trying to explain military theory to an idiot liberal. They can't even understand basic free-market economics, so trying to explain something as subtle and complex as modern warfare to them is like describing astrophysics to a monkey, though with less chance of success.

35 improbulus maximus

as an Iranian I want the Mullahs gone, they are killers and forced so many into exile, including me. I'm first an Iranian then a very liberal Muslim. Please do not say muslim scum!

36 I'm sorry Maziar, I only have an on/off switch most of the time, and I find moderation in matters of survival to be equivalent to cowardice, so while I will concede that there are many muslims who are good people, the fact remains that islam as an ideology is at war against the civilized world. Your own culture, the remnants of the great Persian empire, was destroyed by Islam, which wants to consume the world. I don't hate you personally, but if islam is allowed to expand unchecked, the whole world will be run by the mullahs.
See, I believe the Greeks had it right, and I believe in the ideas they conceived, which matured into the Enlightenment, which in some ways was the epitome of Western civilization. I believe Enlightenment principles are good for every person on the planet, and any ideology which seeks to destroy those principles must itself be destroyed. You doubtless know that as a liberal muslim, you are under an automatic sentence of death more as an apostate than I am as an infidel, so we both face the same enemy. The question is this; do we join to destroy what Winston Churchill called the most powerful retrograde force in the world, or do we stand by and allow the fanatical murderers to take over the world?
Islam is by its very nature an intolerant, extremist ideology, and any person who loves Liberty must admit that it cannot be reformed, it cannot be moderated, it must either be fought or submitted to. You either love freedom or you love slavery; there is no third option.

37 Improbulus Maximus, many thanks for the reply. I cannot agree with you more on most things you have said. To be honest I'm not sure why the way the religion is or why the hard core followers are such beasts. Trust me, you have no idea what these people have do us Iranians. The Mullahs in our case, the only language they understand is violence, you can't reason with them. We persians like to believe its an arabic way, and we have this cult upon us. Majority of us Iranians inside and outside the country are against this way of thinking, killing. We are living in the west, for example Iranians are the second most succeful minority in Britan, after New Zealand. I don't mean this as showing off, but to show we are different.

Having said all the above, I cannot wait for these murderers with their backward thinking to leave us and move to a cave in Afghanistan. It is an extra shame for us with regards to our history, the persians, their tolerance, freeing the jews being under these animals.

I'm trying to think about the religion that is stamped on me. To look at Turkey and lebanon and their progress. Is it possible to reform or does it need violence, then I see Arabic countries, including the killers of Iraq, the insurgents who kill Iraqies.

Last part, I can't agree with you with regard to the greeks at least on persians we were more civilised than they showed us..lol

1 Hey I know, why don't we try inspections, followed by threats of sternly worded letters? I hear the same approach worked really well with Hitler...

2 "If Iran did not comply by March 6,..."

Of what year?

3 March 6th?? Doesn't Bolten(US) have the revolving chairman seat in Feb.? Do we still have it in March? This sounds like it is being timed so we can't control the proceedings by being the Chairman on Security council. Who is the Chairman seat going to in March? China? Russia? Seems like more pandering to the Iranians to me. I know everyone is saying that Iran may have nukes in 2 yrs at current pace, but will they not have nuclear material that could be used in a terrorist dirty bomb before then? What better way to strike back at the west.

4 I would say they already can make a dirty bomb. Cesium(sp) is common in medicine and you don't need enriched uranium or plutonioum just plain u235 will do for a dirty bomb.

5 I'll be dusting off my Blue Helmet - if I can find it. did "procure" one once as a souvenir - hope the dumbass who lost it didn't have to pay for it (not).

6 FOUND IT!

Damn! Its all funky with crud and fungus from the basement! Oh well - guess the UN will have to now extend the deadline a few years till I get a new helmet!

1 Absolutely not. Shia dogma would welcome the Apocalypse as the sign of the coming of the 'hidden' imam.

2 Perhaps they need a sample or two. Say, a couple of cities of over one million people vaporized.

3 well the Pakis and the North Koreans also have bombs. Are the things that we say now about the Iranians any worse then what we were saying about Mao when he acquired the bomb. The best way to influence Iran is to turn their greatest strength (oil) against them. Stop ALL oil exports. Of course gas would hit 4 dollars for a time. We are addicted to their oil, but they are addicted to money. Any type of pressure that we put on Iran will also be seen as an attack on the 50% of Iraqi's who are Shia.

4 Damn, John, I believe you have got it son! You are absolutely right.