1 They're still blaming "Ariel Sharon"? Hello! the guy's in a COMA!!!! It's just like our moonbats here at home, they'll still be blaming "Bush" for everything under the sun.

2 You have to be in awe of the total denial in the mind of the artist that did that cartoon.

As for the last panel captioned "murder", I think more appropriate captions would be "but mom said this rock was blessed by Allah" or "life lesson #482 - common sense isn't really that common".

3 Meanwhile Saddam Hussein has again turned the Iragi court into a circus, thereby escaping hanging for another 3 weeks! These people cannot be helped! Like putting a dog up in a palace. Wake up and smell the coffee!

4 I wonder what the significance is of the number "7256" on the cartoon of the guy in the prison garb. Anyone know?

5 Interesting many of them are from non-muslim "artists" from the West.

All the ones I've seen are actually quite lame with one glaring exception that (oddly enough) can go either way.

The cartoon by Massoud Shojai / Iran ...

Jews going into a holocaust killing machine - and coming out the other end as an Israeli tank.

I'm sure the Iranian artist & muslims would see this as somehow derogatory ... but to me is says quite loudly ...
WHAT DOES NOT KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER.

Choke on that mohammed! I know quite a few Jews who would be proud of that cartoon.

6 The one that is rightfully true is the one in which (in one frame) someone is poking fun at Islam and people are laughing and in the next frame he's being booted out for holocaust talk.

7 That might depend on where you're at, Oyster. I've noticed that around colleges there's a lot of anti-sematic 'humor' and holocaust jokes.

8 And where is that, Ranba? I think they're specifically pointing to the EU countries which banned holocaust denial.

9 Someone mentioned most of these artist were from the Western "Left", but for any of you who can read Persian, a lot of the originals have the name's of artists from Western extreme-right organizations, or Germans and Austrian's who's freedom of speech is stifled in their homeland.

What's the difference between drawing cartoons that defame Islam and cartoons that deny the Holocaust? One is practicing one's "freedom of speech" and the other is a crime.

The cartoon above doesn't question the existence of the Holocaust, it mealy asks "how can a people who have suffered so much in turn inflict so much suffering?"

Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?

There are 2 parts to this problem: the legacy of Ottoman and British colonialism, and the refusal of corrupt and tyrannical Arab leaders to accept the state of Israel.

Try to understand the other side a little and don't automatically label them as terrorists.

For some of you guys making grandiose pronouncements about the Middle-East (or anything really), try getting a little experience with it before you open your mouths. 8 years service around the world makes you look at the world differently. In the end, Left and Right, Democrat and Republican, terrorist and freedom fighter all begin to look the same.

10 Someone mentioned most of these artist were from the Western "Left", but for any of you who can read Persian, a lot of the originals have the name's of artists from Western extreme-right organizations, or Germans and Austrian's who's freedom of speech is stifled in their homeland.

What's the difference between drawing cartoons that defame Islam and cartoons that deny the Holocaust? One is practicing one's "freedom of speech" and the other is a crime.

The cartoon above doesn't question the existence of the Holocaust, it mealy asks "how can a people who have suffered so much in turn inflict so much suffering?"

Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?

There are 2 parts to this problem: the legacy of Ottoman and British colonialism, and the refusal of corrupt and tyrannical Arab leaders to accept the state of Israel.

Try to understand the other side a little and don't automatically label them as terrorists.

For some of you guys making grandiose pronouncements about the Middle-East (or anything really), try getting a little experience with it before you open your mouths. 8 years service around the world makes you look at the world differently. In the end, Left and Right, Democrat and Republican, terrorist and freedom fighter all begin to look the same.

11 Forgive the double posting, internet problems.

12 "Why does the state of Israel employ such a vast military machine when dealing with such an impoverished people as the Palestinians?"

That's a little narrow. The Palestinians aren't their only threat. Most of the Middle East would happily trounce them if not for their strong military.

13 Gunther you been around the world too many times if terrorists look the same as freedom fighters to you. You need to get off the fence and come back home! Arabs, Islamists, Muslims, Mohammeds all need to be rounded up and corraled off from sane, decent civilized societies. It is inbred in Arabs that it is their duty by Allah to kill the infidels ( unbelievers ).

14 Point taken, but F-16s, helicopter gunships and Merkhava's are a little much against targets in heavily populated areas and primarily civilian areas.

A majour part of the problem are the larger Arab states use the Israeli issue to distract their populace from their own incompetence.

Then again, many Middle-Easterners see Israel not so much as a Jewish homeland, but more as an Anglo-American imperial outpost, and given the history you can't completely blame them.

15 I said Western artists - not Western left - I was well aware of aspects of the difference.

I believe you are refering to the cartoon I mentioned. Out of the holocaust came strength - the image of the Merkhava is a crude but effective representation of that strength.

That strength is necessary given the disposition & capabilities of the surrounding muslim states - without it the muslim states would use actual war with Israel to distract their populations rather than just the talk of it.

Why use it against the Palestinians? - because they have it and it deminishes causalties to their own - and sometimes is a deterrent.

16 Gunther,

Could part of the problem be the five wars Isreal has fought with it's Arab neighbors? Perhaps, the five loses the Arabs have had against Israel makes them want to send their kids to school, and learn how to blow themselves up to Allah the false moon god.

I don't know, just wondering.

17 "A majour part of the problem are the larger Arab states use the Israeli issue to distract their populace from their own incompetence."

Now there's a point I can't argue.

But if they view Israel as an "Anglo American imperial outpost" there *is* a reason for it and it ain't because many were willing to help them except us and the UK. And it's another convenient distraction.

18 "Most of the cartoons seem to be drawn by the Western Left which is also so morally retarded that it cannot differentiate between a Palestinian terrorist intentionally blowing up a bus full of civilians and the Israeli response which is to kill the terrorists responsible."

I was referring to the original post hondo.

Anyway, I was trying to raise the freedom of speech issue more than anything.

I don't sit on the fence, but I've realized over time that extremists on both sides are only seeking their own selfish ends to put it lightly.

For example, in the 1980s the Contras who fought Nicaragua’s elected socialist government were considered freedom fighters by their sponsors in the US. However, if you look at some of the things these people actually did, they would be considered terrorists of the worst kind by modern standards.

The Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation are also a good example. As long as these people were fighting the Soviets and taking our support through the Saudis and Pakistanis, they were freedom fighters. But the second groups like the MAK (Maktab al-Khadamat) turned on us and began contesting foreign presence in places like Persian Gulf, and began using the tactics we helped them perfect on us, we call them terrorists.

The point I'm trying to make is, the more you go through life, the more you see the subjectivity of this thing we call "reality" and "truth".

Do you think Saddam was any less of an asshole when we, along with the rest of NATO, the Soviet Union and Arab states provided him with large loans, shipments of advanced weaponry including chemical and biological weapons, key intelligence and in the case of Egypt soldiers? Of course not. We shook his hand, called him Mr. President, all to bleed Iran dry (imagine how dangerous it would’ve been to have the Shah or even Khomeini at the helm of a powerful Iran in one of the most strategic areas in the world). And then, when Iran had been cut down to size, we took care of Iraq. For the historians among you, remember that what is modern Kuwait had been promised to modern day Iraq (and Mosul province of the Ottoman Empire was supposed to go to Turkey instead of Iraq). Do you think we liberated Kuwait because they’re decent, upstanding, freedom loving people? No! These guys were slant drilling into Iraq for a while, and only got what was coming to them. Kuwait is a family dictatorship that doles out millions and millions to native Arabs to keep them placated (and extremely lazy). Kuwait is the lamest excuse for a state we ever came up with. They’re nothing more than a convenient petrol station and brothel.

To further illustrate, people think that the Northern Alliance that we supported to overthrow the Taliban was the democratic opposition to the extremist Islamic government there. But for anyone who's done HUMINT work in Afghanistan and spoken with Afghans (My Persian is good enough that I could speak to most Afghans, since Dari is basically the archaic version of it), you know that the NA and other pro-American warlords were more or less the same piece of shit as the Taliban. As a matter of fact, when they were thrown out of Kabul everyone was happy to see the Taliban in power, particularly those Americans seeking to run large energy projects here in the State's. Only difference between the two is one got on the bandwagon when we saw it fit to give the ME a facelift.

This is why people are surprised when they see that life in that miserable country hasn't changed at all, though I wouldn't say its gotten worse.

When some of you guys get off your chairs, pull up you pants and drag yourselves away from your computers to see the world (and maybe even enlist!), you'll see what I'm talking about.

Leatherneck, you need to read less Chick comics. False moon god? What religious tradition do you think Islam comes from? The Judeo-Christian one. What do you think YVWH was to the Jews? According to most Hanafi and even Shia scholars, the god of the Muslims, Christians and Jews is the same one. The difference between the religions, according to them can be explained like this: Judaism is like Windows 95, Christianity like Windows 98 and Islam is like Windows XP. All three will get you where you want to go, but one works better (though I think the merits of the XP OS are questionable...)

Anyway, good luck with whatever you guys do with your lives. I just remembered I have a company to run and employees to hire.

- Gunther

19 Goodby gunther on behalf of myself and several other veterans and mil personnel "who decided not to enlist".

If your going to qute someone here - do it verbatim!!!!!! Otherwise you expose yourself as just another drop by freakin' pretentious BS Artist.

20 Gunther also needs to gain a better understanding of Islam. He only skimmed the surface with what he was told by somebody. For someone so quick to equate certain aspects of who fights who for what, you'd think he might have at least gotten that part right.

Being too close to a situation can skew one's opinion as easily as beeing too far removed.

But he's right about one thing for sure. Kuwait. I have a very close friend in Kuwait City right now who has been there for about two months. He's told me what's going on there. Backward would be an understatement to describe it. But Kuwait's little transgression was simply a convenient complaint masking other reasons Saddam invaded.

This has come a long way from cartoons.

21 As Gunther aptly demonstrated, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

22 Gunther, you talk about targetting defenseless cilvilian areas. The point you are missing is that they are all terrorists if they reside within Arab countries. That is because they are all inbred to kill the infidel. That is their mandate. Murder is okay for them, it is even a requirement! Their duty! You should get off the fence and go live with them since your analogy of Christ being Window's 98 and Islam being Window's XP reveals your higher regard for Islam. Please just take your company to Iraq and hire some Iraqis. We don't need your kind around here. Please don't reply with a book either. That is the typical response of these Arabian morons who have nothing better to do!

23 justus = strawman