If some version of CAIR had existed in ancient Greece, Homer would have been crucified for the Iliad.

But it's not ancient Greece, and CAIR does exist. And despite our best efforts, they have influence in our PC world.

This message is for our military members. You let us do this stuff, and post it for the world to see. You keep your heads down and keep killing the enemy.

You want to sing "Hajji Girl," that's cool with me. Just don't let it get on the internet. Our enemies have enough ammo as it is.

A little perspective for our lefty friends from wars past:

WWI: The Hun

WWII: Krauts, Japs, Nips, Wops

Korea: Gooks, Chinks

Vietnam: Dinks, Zips, (zipperheads), Slopes

And that's just scratching the surface.

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'Scuse the language, but I've been mulling this over for a couple of days since I read about Ann Coulter's supposed gaffe on Drudge. I'm a little surprised at the reaction, because the accusations she actually levels at the Jersey Girls aren't that different from Christopher Hitchens' "ventriloquize the dead" statements about Cindy Sheehan in Slate. Except that the left was never quite able to demonize Hitchens in the way they'd have liked. But the truth is that these four women did pretty much what Cindy and Papa Berg did, by using their loved one's death to further their own socio/political agenda. If you agree with that agenda you'll probably see nothing wrong with that, but if not you'll see them as either crazy with grief or as manipulative opportunists. In either case they aren't sacrosanct. They made themselves public figures, after all. TigerHawk, who was a lawschool classmate of Ann's, has much more on the "defense of the indefensible."

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William Jefferson claims that large bundles of cash he delivered to Nigeria's Vice President was "African art". more...

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One thing I've always admired about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) is that they, unlike other denominations, haven't forgotten the time honored Christian tradition of excommunication. With Sen Harry Reid's (D-Nev) new found stance opposing the Constitutional Amendment defining marriage as betwen a man and a woman at odds with that of the Mormon church, isn't it time the Mormons disassociate themselves from him?

An organization, by definition, must have boundaries. That is, there must be a way to recognize who is "in" the organization and who is "out" of the organization. Excommunication has traditionally been the way a church proclaims a person is "out"--that that person is no longer part of the organization.

So, when was it that Christian churches stopped excommunicating their members who publicly oppose the official stances of the church?

My Catholic friends say to me that "you can be pro-choice, but you can't be a pro-choice Catholic." Okay, that sounds about right. The Catholic Church's official stance is that abortion is homicide. So, why doesn't the Catholic church go ahead and excommunicate Ted Kennedy?

Not to pick on the Catholics. That's just an example of a public personality at public odds with a church he says he "belongs" to. Protestants, it seems to me, are much worse than Catholics. At least the Catholic church does still excommunicate, albeit more rarely than I'd like to see.

I've never heard of a Protestant church excommunicating some one. Never. Perhaps it happens, but it must be a rare event.

So, back to the Mormons. These guys seem to have no problem with excommunicating any one for pretty much any reason. Good on them.

I know a couple of people who were excommunicating from the LDS church for adultery. Not only does excommunication tell the world, "we do not tolerate this sort of behavior," it also serves as a social sanction so that members of the organization are warned not to do certain things considered "out of bounds". People who wish to remain "in" the organization are warned that if you do something considered morally aggregious, you are "out".

Had the Baptists had the same policy, perhaps my Grandfather--a practicing Baptist minister--would not have been a serial adulterer. As far as I can tell, my grandfather loved the Baptist church, and had their been consequences for his actions perhaps he would have thought twice before the actions.

I've also often wondered what would Bill Clinton's Presidency have been like had the Baptists preached less forgiveness for sin and more don't do the sin in the first place lest you find yourself "out" of the group.

Which brings us back to Harry Reid. He is allegedly a good Mormon. I'm sure he's faithful to his wife, is honest, and does all the things good Mormons are supposed to do, but it seems to me that his political philisophy is now at odds with the Mormon church.

KUTV:

An apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stood with several other religious leaders at a news conference in Washington supporting a proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles participated in a press conference with the Alliance for Marriage, and met with President Bush at the White House before giving a statement in support of amending the U.S. Constitution.

"Together we share a duty to preserve marriage and family as established by God," Nelson said. "The time has now come when a constitutional amendment is needed in this country to protect our divine inheritance. Such action does not reduce our regard for individuals who choose to live by other standards. But it confirms our conviction that marriage is the foundry for social order, the fountain of virtue and the foundation for eternal exaltation."

But maybe that's just one leader's own opinion on the amendment. Or is supporting the amendment the official position of the LDS Church? KUTV:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has spent millions of dollars campaigning against gay marriage, urged members Sunday to lobby U.S. senators on the proposed constitutional amendment that would limit marriage to being between a man and a woman.

The church sent a letter to leaders throughout the United States that was to be read to the congregations Sunday.

The letter from the First Presidency – church President Gordon B. Hinckley and his counselors – noted the church leaders "have repeatedly set forth our position that the marriage of a man and a woman is the only acceptable marriage relationship.''

The letter noted that the Senate was scheduled to vote on the proposed marriage amendment on June 6, and said, "We urge our members to express themselves on this urgent matter to their elected representatives in the Senate.''

So, what is Sen. Harry Reid's take on the amendment banning gay marriage? The Hill:

“The reason for this debate is to divide our society, to pit one against another. This is another one of the president’s efforts to frighten, to distort, to distract and to confuse America.”

But the real question I have is for the Mormon Church. Why would you guys want to claim a guy like Harry Reid, who thinks your official support of a Constitutional Amendment is not only ill advised but ill motivated?

The highest elected Democrat in the country thinks you, the Mormon church hierarchy, are full of crap. Are you guys just going to stand there and take it?

If Harry Reid no longer feels the Mormon church leaders are speaking for God, then the logical step would be to either to stop calling himself a Mormon or for the Mormons to kick him out.

Just to make myself clear, my objection to Reid's stance is niether political nor theological. As a Christian Universalist I believe all people--even Democrats and gay people--eventually go to heaven. As a libertarian, I have no problem with two hot chicks going down to the local Unitarian church and getting hitched. Heck, I don't even really have a problem with three hot chicks getting hitched. Or even one guy, and three hot chicks getting hitched! (although I do object to states being forced to recognize such kinky unions as legally binding "marriage" contracts)

But I do have a problem with people who wish to claim they are part of an organization, but then are consistently at odds with it. This is not Europe. One is not "born" into a religion. Your religion and your ethnic identity are not the same here. One chooses which religious organizations one belongs to.

So, Harry Reid, if you are no longer a Mormon, please do us all a favor and be honest about it. And you Mormons, aren't you ashamed that this guy uses your religion as poliltical cover? And for the rest of the religious leaders out there: do us all a favor and start excommunicating people.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear from readers about their thoughts on excommunication. Does your church or denomination ever do it? If so, under what circumstances?

Posted by: Rusty at 01:22 PM | Comments (66) | Add Comment
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1 Liberalism is like a viral weapon. You see, Liberals who disagree with their churches could easily just leave and start their own denominations. But they don't do that. Instead, just like a virus attacking a cell, they try to change the church from within and transform it into something that no longer even resembles a church. Until it starts looking less like a church and more like a Lion's Club or the Rotarians, except with pews and an organ.

They HAVE to transform that church because Liberalism and christianity cancel each other out. For christianity to co-exist with modern Liberalism it has to stop being christianity. It has to become Liberalism with just the patina of spirituality added to it. But it no longer bears any resemblance to the church it once was.

That's why Liberal churches that have been transformed like that are are quick to negotiate away the traditional doctrines and dogmas of their religion, yet are adamant about maintaining the trappings of the old religion (i.e., form of worship and liturgy, organs, traditional vestments and ceremonies, etc.). Those trappings are still very near and ear to them. They clutch to them for dear life. And they have to!!! Because if not, they'll have nothing left at all to call a church. It starts to look like windown dressing.

And in the process, Libs are killing those churches. They're dying out. Good riddance though. The evangelicals are growing by leaps and bounds even as the mainline churches wither on the diseased vine.

To be fair, some Libs have tried to start their own religion. It's called unitarianism/universalism. It's not doing very well either.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at June 06, 2006 01:48 PM (8e/V4)

2 Carlos,

But aren't the evangelicals just as guilty when it comes to excommunication? That is, they are quick to condemn (it seems) with words, but not with deeds.

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 01:50 PM (JQjhA)

3 So the official position of the LDS church is that it's members should support the amendment

Actually, as far as I can tell, the official position is to have lawyers closely draft letters such as this.

The letter does not say the church supports the amendment, it merely says the church believes marriage should be between a man and a woman.

It also does not say that members should support the amendment, it just urges members to "express themselves".

Support for the amendment and expectation of members to support the amendment is not explicitly stated.

Given that the church highly values the ability of each individual to choose the right, I always find it interesting when the church takes a stand on political issues. There is a big difference between legal and right, something that sometimes gets lost among zealots of every stripe.

FWIW, I am a Mormon. I do not believe the constitution should be diddled in this particular manner. While I do not think homosexual marriage (or, for that matter, polygamy) is a good thing, that does not mean I think it should be illegal. The church's position should be one of instructing its members in proper conduct, not attempting to coerce good out of the unwilling.

(for a quick overview of the difference, go rent A Clockwork Orange)

Posted by: Anachronda at June 06, 2006 01:58 PM (Y7t14)

4 Howdy, Rusty.
Re: protestant excommunications, look up Marian Guinn, a woman who was excommunicated by a Church of Christ in Oklahoma in the 80's. She sued, and won almost 400,000 dollars for "invasion of privacy." The fact that she had resigned from the church made the suit possible, the courts ruled. Of course, resigning and being excommunicated are two different things from a religious point of view - excommunication carries with it the command to the faithful to have nothing further to do with the excommunicated, while resignation is simply not addressed.
Interestingly, the websites I found discussing this were overwhelmingly mormon (which is not the same thing as Church of Christ - very, very different) sites which are advising their congregations on what NOT to do to avoid losing lawsuits.

Posted by: attentionseeker at June 06, 2006 01:58 PM (PXobq)

5 Anachronda,

To imply that following dogma is akin to brainwashing, with your Clockwork Orange example, is just effed up--seriously.

Not making something legal is not the same as making it illegal. Duh. This amendment does not "outlaw" gay marriage, it simply makes gay marriage extra-legal--not recognized by state institutions. So, if two hot chicks want to get "married" they still can, but what the amendment does is make sure state institutions don't recognize such a union as a valid contract.

Attention Seeker,

So, one church excommunicated one person 30 years ago???

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 02:08 PM (JQjhA)

6 Mack
Uh, no.... That was simply what I remember from my 'yout,' as I grew up in the CofC and it was a big deal back then. I'm sure if you search for cases of protestant excommunication, you will find some, but lack of finding does not indicate lack of occurance. After all, if some backwoods Baptist church excommunicates a member, why would that become either newsworthy, part of the public record, or something someone wishes to 'blog about, which are the three things I consider necessary for something to end up catalogued on the 'net? I'd be willing to bet some of the more fundamentalist churches do this with some frequency, but why would you or I find out about it?

In addition, I realize I made a mistake in my post above - the mormon sites are not sites to help churches, but seem to be targetted at those wishing to leave the LDS church and 'make it stick,' without going through what Norman Hancock went through when he resigned from the LDS.

Posted by: attentionseeker at June 06, 2006 02:18 PM (PXobq)

7 Yeah, well, it seems rare. Too rare, in my book. I don't know what this guy Hancock went through, but it seems to me that social sanctions are entirely appropriate for any one who leaves a church or is booted out. As opposed to Sharia which are legal sanctions.

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 02:25 PM (JQjhA)

8 Mitt Romney supports the FMA, and wrote a letter to every senator asking them to vote "yes". Harry Reid is wrong, this is the most important issue for the Senate to address right now.

Posted by: Kevin at June 06, 2006 02:25 PM (M/4kE)

9 Kevin,

And you'd think Mitt Romney would know something about the need for the amendment, since he was the governor of a state where the court forced gay marriage. Is he Mormon?

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 02:30 PM (JQjhA)

10 >>>But aren't the evangelicals just as guilty when it comes to excommunication? That is, they are quick to condemn (it seems) with words, but not with deeds.

There is excommunication based on sin, vs excommunication based on doctrine. If the doctrines are not in sync, they will be asked to leave.

Excommunication based on personal sin is entirely a different matter. My experience is that they condemn the sin, but they don't single individuals out for condemnation. In other words they teach what the Bible says about sin, but they aren't picking on some dude sitting in the pews who happens to be sinning.

Take adultery for example. You'll hear sermons about it, but they aren't going to single some dude out for ridicule. It is expected that the Holy Spirit would convict him, not the pastor. But let's say the dude's wife approaches the pastor with the problem. In that case the pastor would call them in for counseling. Worst case scenario in some churches is that they'd ask him to leave because he won't repent of his sin and he's making it miserable for her to keep attending.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at June 06, 2006 02:31 PM (8e/V4)

11 Carlos,

Isn't there some kind of Biblical injunction about this? You know, "anathema" and all that?

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 02:32 PM (JQjhA)

12 There is excommunication based on sin, vs excommunication based on doctrine. If the doctrines are not in sync, they will be asked to leave.

Let me clarify that. This applies to church leaders, not to regular slobs sitting in the pews.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at June 06, 2006 02:34 PM (8e/V4)

13 Why not?

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 02:36 PM (JQjhA)

14 why not what.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at June 06, 2006 02:50 PM (8e/V4)

15 Call me cynical, but finances may play a role in the decision not to excommunicate.

Booting people isn't good for donations.

To repeat: I said "may play a role." Not slamming any denominations here.

Posted by: Vintastick Mambo No. 5 at June 06, 2006 02:52 PM (/qy9A)

16 Why didn't the Vatican excommunicate pro-choice politicians? Two reasons.

First, when anti-Catholicism was all the rage, as recently as the 50s, the primary argument against Catholics was that we would be loyal to Rome before the US. This was a particularly strong argument against electing Catholics to office. The Vatican is leery of this.

Second, it isn't technically a sin to support the right to have an abortion, though it definitely is a sin to have an abortion. Women who have abortions excommunicate themselves from the Church.

Posted by: rightwingprof at June 06, 2006 02:58 PM (hj1Wx)

17 JC,

Why not excommunicate the congregants as opposed to the ministers?

Rightwingprof,

If abortion is "homicide", then I don't see how supporting a "right to commit homicide" could be anything but a sin. If abortion is nothing more than clipping a toenail, then no problem theologically.

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 03:02 PM (JQjhA)

18 >>>>Why not excommunicate the congregants as opposed to the ministers?

Because the role of congregant and minister are so different. Congregants go to church to LEARN about the word of God, so it's tolerated if they are ignorant or wayward. It is expected that the Holy Spirit will do the convicting of his sin, not the pastor.

But the church leaders can't be given that kind of leeway lest they lead their congregants astray. So they're asked to repent, or leave.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at June 06, 2006 03:08 PM (8e/V4)

19 JC,

I see. Seems better than no church, but not as good as good old-fashioned Puritanical social shunning. But maybe that's just me.

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 03:18 PM (JQjhA)

20 AGREED!!! As a "Mormon", I am embarrassed about Harry Reid. His views are completely contrary to that of our church, and I agree with you completely about the excommunication. At least remove his status as a member in good standing! I hope our church will make a point of this a take the appropriate measures!

Posted by: UtahPatriot at June 06, 2006 03:28 PM (105pD)

21 MORMON'S PERSPECTIVE:
A mormon here. Hello. Harry Reid IS doing something expressly discussed among grounds for excommunication. It isn't of course my decision to make, but that of his immediate ecclesiastical leaders. Okay, so here's what he's doing--he's affiliating with a group whose ideals are contra gospel principles. Plain and simply, that's what democrats have become as they've attempted to reach out to all the downtrodden. Gays have finally found some success turning their predicament into a race issue. Democrats have taken the bait, and are willing to stand up for gays as though some social injustice is done when gays get told they're wrong, and it's not a race issue. The democratic party certainly wasn't always like this. Jefferson's ideals were much more inline with gospel principles than Hamiltonian rhetoric in the outset. Of course the Church didn't exist until 1830, but the principles have always been around.
Reid is smart to stick with his story of bad motives, rather than attack the substance of the argument. He's like a pharisee standing there watching Jesus purge the temple grounds of its merchandisers. Of course he doesn't tell Jesus he's wrong to do it, But he does ask 'Who's this guy?' and 'Why now, why not later... or earlier?'
Now, excommunicate him? Pure speculation here, but that probably won't happen. Not for this. If he came out and said gay marriage should have the same esteem as traditional marriage, that would be more like it. So far he's just kind of dancing around it, hoping he never has to say it. Even then, would he really believe it?

Posted by: David Sudweeks at June 06, 2006 03:41 PM (svsF9)

22 uhhhh yes the sanctity of holy matrimony. Wedded bliss. Family values. Divorce rates are lowest in the northeast highest in the south. Atheists and agnostics have a lower divorce rate than any christain church group. Buddhists were not listed. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

Posted by: john ryan at June 06, 2006 03:47 PM (TcoRJ)

23 Harry Reid is trying to nuance his way out of something where there is neither excuse nor room for such 'nuance.' I'm a member of the LDS Church and the only way he'd be ex-communicated is if he came out vocaly, and directly (explicitly direct) against the Church leadership. I hope he changes his mind.

Between all the talk of state powers and the attempts to trivialize this issue I hope enough people see these inane smokescreens for what they are. Give the states the chance to vote up or down on the amendment. If you want to talk about state powers the propositioning of amending the federal constitution CAN'T take their powers because it both uses them to determine any amendment AND because the moment an amendment is passed the constitution is changed and the rights are NO LONGER the state's jurisdiction.

And this crap on diviciveness is such garbage. When we as a society pretend that altering the way that the government interacts with the most fundamental unit in our society is a "side show" then we'll fully warrant the damnation that is inherent in such a fundamental change. People freak out about GMO (Geneticaly modified organsims) yet they don't take a second thought scrambling the endorsed structure of society at it's fundamental levels. This truly is akin to saying that the DNA sequences should be "endorsed" in whatever random mutations that can occur. When you endorse detrimental mutations you get cancer. That's what our society is so close to doing here in the US.

Make no mistake, this is one of the most important issues in the history of human government. And so many in the MSM and in the left wing want to pretend that it's some cheesy side show.

Posted by: HiveRadical at June 06, 2006 03:52 PM (+hMKw)

24 I am a politically conservative Mormon who finds Harry Reid very misguided and annoying but from what I understand of excommunication within the Church, it is very unlikely that he has anything to worry about.

As mentioned in the post, excommunication or more mild forms of church discipline are invoked when personal behavior conflicts with church teachings.

Despite what its critics may suggest, the Church is reluctant to publicly endorse a political position unless it directly involves a moral issue. Even so, the Church does not require its members to adhere to or actively endorse these positions (even if it asks us to).

The last time something similar happened was in the '70s when the Church opposed the ERA and a member, Sonia Johnson was excommunicated not for opposing the Church's position but because she actively tried to undermine Church leaders and the Church's missionary efforts. Some may quibble with the distinction but I believe that if she just stuck to pursuing her honest poltical differences she would not have been exed.

Regarding Senator Reid, I don't know how he resolves his personal beliefs (which he claims to be in accord with his Church) with his public actions (which are not). But that is not for me to judge.

Posted by: David H. Sundwall at June 06, 2006 04:25 PM (5U4Vx)

25 In response to the statement made by Anachronda. -- "Actually, as far as I can tell, the official position is to have lawyers closely draft letters such as this...The letter does not say the church supports the amendment, it merely says the church believes marriage should be between a man and a woman...It also does not say that members should support the amendment, it just urges members to "express themselves".

Actually the very reason that Elder Russel M. Nelson was sent to Washington under the direction of the First Presidency was to call to the attention of others the need for such an ammendment. The Church does support it! To "express yourself" and not be for or against it, might AND I say MIGHT be interpreted as being "luke warm" or a fence sitter. As members of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (YES I am a member) we believe and sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators with the authoritative right to speak to the Savior's people and all nations of the Earth the mind and will of God. Does the Savior himself have to come and do this for the people to know of it's validity?...I think not...that is why these men have been called by God to be who they are. We do not believe leaders of our Church to be infallible but in matters such as these when the Church makes a move and takes a stand, it is not something that can be trivialized to a point of just expressing ourselves. It was stated earlier right out of the broadcast what Elder Nelson said while in Washington, D.C.(see below in quotes). My belief is that this is a spiritual issue for the Church as much as is it is a political issue for the rest of our nation with regards to members of the LDS Church.

"Together we share a duty to preserve marriage and family as established by God, the time has now come when a constitutional amendment is needed in this country to protect our divine inheritance. Such action does not reduce our regard for individuals who choose to live by other standards. But it confirms our conviction that marriage is the foundry for social order, the fountain of virtue and the foundation for eternal exaltation." --Elder Russel M. Nelson

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 06, 2006 04:52 PM (105pD)

26 Harry Reid is a Mormon???

Protestants can excommunicate members???

Learned two things in one post. WTG Rusty

Posted by: RepJ at June 06, 2006 05:01 PM (y6n8O)

27 I'm not Morman but I believe in polygamy. I've been trying to convince the wife that she needs some help around the house. One about 25 years old with long legs and big hooters should do.

Posted by: greyrooster at June 06, 2006 05:31 PM (Y2/LN)

28 Is there something wrong with holding the opinion that marriage should be between only between a man and a wife, and also hold the opinion that we don't need an amendment to the constitution to say so?

As a lifelong observant Mormon, I see no reason for Harry Reid to be excommunicated or reprimanded in anyway. On the contrary, I think it would be very disturbing if *any* diciplinary action resulted from Senator Reid's vote. Those of you who do need to get a better understanding of what charity is--otherwise your whining makes the rest of us Mormons look bad.

I don't agree with the Democrats stance on abortion, but there are also plenty of Republicans nowdays that support abortion that it is a moot point for me (Bo Derek for example).

I'd rather vote for a "tax & spend Democrat" over a "borrow & spend Republican" any day. Where in the Republican Party have those sound Mormon principles of self-reliance and "pay-as-you-go" disappeared to?

Posted by: Jason at June 06, 2006 05:47 PM (Zt8lk)

29 "So, the official position of the LDS church is that it's members should support the amendment."

Actually, the official stance, according to that letter is that members should express themselves to their elected representatives in the Senate. The letter is specifically written not to explicitly tell people how to view this politically.

Posted by: Kim Siever at June 06, 2006 05:51 PM (hpMoJ)

30 "Take adultery for example. You'll hear sermons about it, but they aren't going to single some dude out for ridicule."

The Mormon church usually only excommunicates adulterers when they refuse to repent, or if they're in a position of trust. Also, its not really "singling out some dude for ridicule." Its hardly ever announced or anything. Usually the only way you find out is that you're connected to the events somehow or you start asking about why so and so hasn't come to church in a while. In every instance, if a Mormon excommunication gets publicized, its because the excommunicated person has decided to announce it.

Posted by: Adam Greenwood at June 06, 2006 06:21 PM (ZLP14)

31 Er, Kim, if that is the case how come one of your Apostles went to D.C. on an official visit and officially endorsed the Amendment?

Posted by: Macktastick Wicked Numero Uno at June 06, 2006 07:03 PM (JQjhA)

32 To Kim Siever,

The statement that was made in my previous post was that the Church does support it as far as the brethren are concerned. The opinion, which I failed to identify it as such, in my previous statement is that to "express themselves" only to the degree of expression MIGHT be interpreted to be "luke warm". I believe that Church officials would indeed yes, have us, as they say "express ourselves" to our elected representatives. But that cannot be interpreted as express ourselves and then go on our merry way and say the politics are dancing. The point I was attempting make was not a political one at all. It was directed towards members of the Church to evaluate it from a spiritual point of view. I do this because of being a member and at the same time belonging to an organization that opposes Gay and Lesbian couples from adopting children. As an adoptor and adoptee, digging deep into what has been taught in my upbringing there is no compromise to the divine appointment of a Father (man) and Mother (woman).

Now if you are a not a member of the LDS Church and you are reading this then you can take it at face value and view it with all the political ferver that you can muster up. But if you are a member of the Church I would hope that you would rely on basic Gospel principles and what has been taught and look beyond the political attributes of the matter.

Upon careful observation of Elder Nelson's statment he explicitly stated, "Together we share a duty to preserve marriage and family as established by God, the time has now come when a constitutional amendment is needed in this country to protect our divine inheritance". That is not a political statement more than it is a spiritual statement and I doubt that he went or was sent to Washington with any political agenda to advocate a political position. Unfortunately such matters fall into the realm of having to play around the political affairs of an almost godless nation, or at least one that is slow to remember who has blessed them with what they possess. Although the Church will not dictate to its members how to view this politically, I do believe that they are emphasizing in a "counseling" like manner to do what D&C 9:9 tells us to do. Otherwise the warning is the same as what is given in Alma 60:7. We can "express", which is fine, but we should also do and support our leaders by becoming involved where and when we can.

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 06, 2006 07:19 PM (105pD)

33 Er, MWNU, where in that letter does it say anything about one of the apostles going to DC on an official visit?

Rusty quoted the letter (or an article quoting the letter) and then based his statement on an interpretation he made of the letter. Nelson's trip to DC has nothing to do with what direction Mormons were given in that letter.

Posted by: Kim Siever at June 06, 2006 07:22 PM (hpMoJ)

34 PraticalReason,

What I said had nothing to do with morality. It had to do with Rusty's use of an non-partisan comment to support a moral claim. I was simply pointing out that what he deduced from that statement is not what the statement said, regardless of what other statements have said.

Posted by: Kim Siever at June 06, 2006 07:25 PM (hpMoJ)

35 Exommunicate AL GORE he is a deffinit new age earth worshiping pagan freak

Posted by: sandpiper at June 06, 2006 08:18 PM (Zy1Y5)

36 I am not wrapped around the letter. The news article can be seen at the following link:

http://kutv.com/local/local_story_157104811.html

We can all form our own opinions and if anything Elder Nelson's visit to Washington to me was an extension of the letter on the First Presidency's views of the matter. I was only stating that the Church's position is more of a spiritual one than it is a political one.

If you are referring to Rusty's statement, "So, the official position of the LDS church is that it's members should support the amendment". I agree with you 100%; that is not what the letter or any other Church press release has stated. You are correct in pointing out the non-partisan comment being used to support a moral claim as being unfounded.

I was not trying to support the claim that Church has asked its members to explicitly support this amendment. It could be ‘word-smithed’ to death and left to endless interpretation. What I was attempting to do was to show my devotion to what I believe to be true. By the content of the letter that was released to members from the First Presidency and the Quorum or the Twelve and then a follow-up of an Apostle of the Lord being there in Washington with other leaders to support the amendment, I do believe that the message (non-formal) that is being sent from our Church leaders with regards to supporting such an amendment is to do the "morally" correct thing as per the teachings received within the boundaries of our religion. Some might say that this point of view is an oversimplification to a complex problem. In my opinion, if this is only a political situation for Church members or in the least degree political views have superseded the role of moral and spiritual views of the subject matter, then it is sadly unfortunate.

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 06, 2006 08:33 PM (105pD)

37 What I am trying to say is that we know where the brethren stand on this and granted they have not asked us to explicitly support this amendment, but I do sustain their actions in opposing Gay and Lesbian marriage and support the ideals of preventing activist judges from over-turning the people's vote for what ever their (real) motives might be. Until a prophet of God tells me that such "unnatural affection" within the legal bonds of marriage have been divinely sanctioned I myself could not find myself to do anything else but support and advocate support for the amendment. Within the bounds of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints the moral principle is an absolute until otherwise revealed.

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 06, 2006 08:53 PM (105pD)

38 What I am trying to say is that we know where the brethren stand on this and granted they have not asked us to explicitly support this amendment, but I do sustain their actions in opposing Gay and Lesbian marriage and support the ideals of preventing activist judges from over-turning the people's vote for what ever their (real) motives might be. Until a prophet of God tells me that such "unnatural affection" within the legal bonds of marriage have been divinely sanctioned I myself could not find myself to do anything else but support and advocate support for the amendment. Within the bounds of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the moral principle is an absolute until otherwise revealed.

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 06, 2006 08:59 PM (105pD)

39 ROTFLOL! ...One thing I've always admired about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) is that they, unlike other denominations, haven't forgotten the time honored Christian tradition of excommunication....

Great post! Excommunication certainly has it's time and place, yet Reid's political opinions simply does not qualify him for that level of exclusion and/or censure.

However, I do agree with the sentiment.

Posted by: LDS Patriot at June 06, 2006 09:10 PM (eWKvW)

40 An ammendment is necessary to protect the traditional family from judges bent pleasing the few.

Posted by: peacemaker at June 06, 2006 10:25 PM (klWDE)

41 The Church doesn't endorse political positions, only those viewed by the leaders as a "moral" issue. For example, in the past, they have asked members to vote agains't.... gambling, alcohol, Equal Rights Amendment (Sonia Johnson)and now Protection of Marriage issue...as defined by marriage between man and a woman.

To most it is politics...to the Mormon Church..it is purely a moral issue....one central to the main purpose of the Church....the continuance of the family thru marriage....here and in the future.

Posted by: Tony at June 07, 2006 12:24 AM (qwcbr)

42 That said...Harry Reid is an idiot..
an embarrassment to all....

Fortunately, most people clearly recognize it!

Posted by: Tony at June 07, 2006 12:32 AM (qwcbr)

43 As a Mormon, I must say, with the greatest reluctance, that Harry Reid should not be excommunicated, because it would provide grist for the propaganda mills of the apologetics who claim the Church "dictates" how we vote, or "runs" the state of Utah behind the scenes.

But Harry Reid proffered one of the more disingenuous explanations I've heard since John Kerry tapdanced his way to defeat in 2004. He says he's against gay marriage, but is also against the Marriage Protection Amendment? What's up with that?

Posted by: Anchorage Activist at June 07, 2006 01:50 AM (rFXoP)

44 I don't have much to say about Reid and excommunication; not being of any church myself. Many others have addressed the issue quite succinctly. But I think they're going about this all wrong. While they insist on handling the whole illegal immigration issue, from securing the border to what to do with those already in violation, they have attacked this problem of marriage in a narrowly focused manner by ignoring what is really at the bottom of it all.

Supporting an amendment without regard to certain legal rights that gays are unable to enjoy as contributing members of society is making the matter worse. It is my personal opinion that if they want to ammend the Constitution to specify marriage as between one man and one woman, then they need to also extend to gays some manner of protection from being exploited. A civil union or some manner of protection.

If John and Bill (or Jane and Mary) spend thirty years together and Bill dies, John has no real legal right to Bill's estate. Without a contract legally bound by law Bill's parents, and even his siblings, can strip John of everything he and Bill worked together to achieve. A will can be too easily annulled, and has been. Yes, some judges will find on John's behalf, but by making this ammendment alone, it will be even harder for that to happen.

So - if they want to take this all the way to the constitution they should take a two-pronged approach. Or leave it to the States.

Posted by: Oyster at June 07, 2006 03:50 AM (YudAC)

45 Oh yeah, amendment has two m's, not three. Copy/paste has it's disadvantages.

Posted by: Oyster at June 07, 2006 03:52 AM (YudAC)

46 Is this still the Jawa report?

Posted by: greyrooster at June 07, 2006 06:34 AM (v72Rt)

47 "...we urge members..." NOT "...we command members..."

Posted by: Paul F Justham at June 07, 2006 07:54 AM (+hwWD)

48 If abortion is "homicide", then I don't see how supporting a "right to commit homicide" could be anything but a sin.

Many Catholics would agree that it is. However, the Church tries to stay away from even the perception that elected Catholics are being directed from Rome.

Also, anyone would surely agree that there is a huge gulf between supporting the right to an abortion and actually having an abortion.

As a Mormon, I must say, with the greatest reluctance, that Harry Reid should not be excommunicated, because it would provide grist for the propaganda mills of the apologetics who claim the Church "dictates" how we vote, or "runs" the state of Utah behind the scenes.

There's the Mormon analogy.

Posted by: rightwingprof at June 07, 2006 10:05 AM (hj1Wx)

49 Great post, Oyster.

Why don't catholics excommunicate the members who support abortion? How about because an estimated 50% of catholics support legal abortion in circumstances the church would not?

And it is of course possible to oppose gay marriage and this amendment on federalism grounds. That's Reid's position. Historically, marriage has been a core state function. To attenuate that freedom at the national level is problematic for many. Even in 1912, when the vast majority of white Americans opposed any interracial marriage, an amendment to prevent Mass. and other liberal states from marrying blacks and whites failed to pass the congress. Despite the extraordinary dominance of racists in the Congress, they treasured federalism more. (this was the same congress that also failed, repeatedly, to pass federal laws against lynching, which was killing so many blacks without any state penalty). At the time, a few interracial couples would leave the South or Midwest, and go north to get legally hitched.

Just as it took a long time for the principle of interracial marriage to be accepted, it will take a long time for gay marriage to win. But the tide of history on this issue is clear. Conservatives are fighting a "rear guard action" (yes, a funny way to describe anti-sodomists) on gay rights, and they know it. Gay rights are moving much faster than black rights did. Majorities of Americans already accept that gays should have workplace rights. That wasn't true of blacks for several hundred years, and decades after the civil war. Gays are elected officials, openly, in both parties, when in 1968 there were none.

This amendment is going nowhere, and everyone knows it. It is a sideshow distraction from a failed administration. Are social conservatives this dumb, to think Bush cares about this? In 2004, an election year, he gave hundreds of speeches on this. In 2005, a lexis search shows that he NEVER mentioned it, not once. In 2006, up till now, he NEVER mentioned it. Wake up, fools. You vote for pro-life, prayer in the schools, and a ban on gay marriage. You get tax cuts for Paris Hilton.

Posted by: jd at June 07, 2006 10:22 AM (aqTJB)

50 Ah. Forget the fags. They are not only against, The church they are against nature. And you should never mess with mother nature. I thought aids was going to take care of this problem.

Posted by: greyrooster at June 07, 2006 12:57 PM (RciVP)

51 One Can't be excommincate for voting contrary to the leaders. Here's what former LDS president Heber J. Grant said about those who voted differently than he did on rescinding
Prohibition - "Some of my friends begged
me to come out and appeal to the people individually, to ask every Latter-day
Saint to vote to maintain the Eighteenth Amendment. I believe men that have lived
the gospel just as well as I have ever
lived it, many of them, were conscientious in voting for repeal." (Heber J. Grant)

Posted by: Leah Hona at June 07, 2006 04:08 PM (jqQzW)

52 PracticalReason says: "Until a prophet of God tells me that such "unnatural affection" within the legal bonds of marriage have been divinely sanctioned I myself could not find myself to do anything else but support and advocate support for the amendment. Within the bounds of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the moral principle is an absolute until otherwise revealed."

How can you call yourself "Practical Reason" when your position quoted above puts faith before reason. It is clear by your response that you have abdicated your agency to choose for yourself to others who evidently know better than you. This is not "practical reason", it is blind faith, if not a form of idolatry.

Posted by: Stupor of Thought at June 07, 2006 05:42 PM (YUxIP)

53 I am a faithful Mormon, and I especially like "Give 'em hell Harry." I completely agree with his position and his observation that we are ignoring more critical issues in order to pitch a fit over this proposed amendment. I saw that the ultra-conservative press tried to make him ridiculous by comparing the price of gas to the eternal sanctity of the family. Pretty transparent.

Posted by: kateye at June 08, 2006 12:07 AM (SHrIP)

54 How about because an estimated 50% of catholics support legal abortion in circumstances the church would not?

Whose estimation is this? Obviously, someone who does not know many Catholics.

Posted by: rightwingprof at June 08, 2006 10:27 AM (hj1Wx)

55 One can't be excommincated for voting contrary to the leaders. Here's what former LDS president Heber J. Grant said about those who voted differently than he did on rescinding
Prohibition - "Some of my friends begged
me to come out and appeal to the people individually, to ask every Latter-day
Saint to vote to maintain the Eighteenth Amendment. I believe men that have lived
the gospel just as well as I have ever
lived it, many of them, were conscientious in voting for repeal." (Heber J. Grant)

Posted by: Captain Moroni at June 08, 2006 01:12 PM (jqQzW)

56 testing

Posted by: HooverDam at June 08, 2006 02:45 PM (MUxFa)

57 Stupor of Thought,

I am not sure to which religion you belong. But what I "evidently don't know", is quite possibly a lot of things.

What I do know is that I have not abdicated my agency to choose for myself but that I choose to sustain and support the leaders of the faith that I belong to because of an inward conviction and commitment to certain moral principles that are unchangeable. In simpler terms God did not put Adam and Steve or Madam and Eve in the Garden and command them to multiply and replenish the Earth as per biblical terms. It was Adam (man) and Eve (woman). The amendment is establishing that very precedence of preserving the sanctity of marriage and what Christians and most other religions generally believe to be the basic foundation for the family unit.

In my observation society has come to a point of setting themselves above the standard that was established a long time ago; a standard that is, yes a moral principle. It seems that some organizations would rather deny the existence of a God altogether to sanction within their power the ability to do things beyond such standards; redefining them (per se) for an evolving society so as to not be accountable for going against a moral principle. But again this is just what I believe. What you call "blind faith" I would call a "personal conviction of a moral principle". But you are entitled to your own beliefs regarding the matter and I will respect that.

Posted by: PraticalReason at June 08, 2006 03:28 PM (105pD)

58 >>>They HAVE to transform that church because Liberalism and christianity cancel each other out.<<<

Yeah, Jesus was a stuanch conservative.


>>>That's why Liberal churches that have been transformed like that are are quick to negotiate away the traditional doctrines and dogmas of their religion, yet are adamant about maintaining the trappings of the old religion<<<

Jesus should have stuck to the traditional doctrines and dogmas. You're right.

Posted by: iGNORANT jACKOFF at June 08, 2006 03:58 PM (ZucvC)

59 From the Mormon Church's official website:

Issues on which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has felt compelled to take a firm stand include civil rights, MX missile testing in Utah, same-gender marriages, pornography, gambling and Utah alcohol laws.

The Church does not extend reprimands or ecclesiastical punishment to persons who choose not to support its views on these issues.


I personally think Harry Reid is motivated primarily or exclusively by partisan politics, and would loke nothing more than "to divide our society, to pit one against another."

However, one can oppose homosexual marriage without supporting a Constitutional amendment or other particular political solutions.

More pertinent to this discussion, the Church does not assert political infallibility and is not about to excommunicate people for disagreeing with it. If Reid had said "gay people ought to get married" or "people ought to have gay sex," the answer would probably be different.

Posted by: tml at June 08, 2006 05:10 PM (8zNVc)

60 It's probably obvious, but my post should read "... would like nothing ..." rather than "... would loke nothing ..."

Posted by: tml at June 08, 2006 06:33 PM (8zNVc)

61
Don't blame Reid for the same thing that Orrin Hatch did (partisan politics). Hatch was just lucky enough to be on the "right" side of the amendment proposal. Just wait, he'll have his turn soon enough. I'm sure the repubs got the fodder they were looking for. Whether or not it will work to their advantage remains to be seen.

Posted by: DCO at June 11, 2006 11:29 PM (ht8Md)

62 Hi there, Mormon here.

Harry Reid appears to be a politician first and religious man second. He's walking a fine line. I'd love to know how he can reconcile his political position with what he supposedly believes to be right and true. Depending on how far he carries this thing, he could find himself on the outside looking in, but the Church won't excommunicate without grounds. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out.

For the Church's part: Members are never told how to vote, but they are encouraged TO vote and contact their elected officials to make their voices heard. Which side of the moral issue members fall on, how they vote, and what they say to their elected officials is entirely between themselves and God.

The fact that Elder Nelson is in D.C. "helping" the Republicans by endorsing the signing of the Act, does not proclaim a partisan affiliation - he is most likely on assignment, trying to see that the country's best interests, as far as the Church views them, are being upheld.

Posted by: Natalie at June 12, 2006 05:54 PM (Y7vtK)

63 Who's to say that Reid doesn't have a better idea for the concept of "marriage protection." Maybe the amendment was flawed and not the concept. Maybe Harry and Orrin will put their heads together and come up with something that resembles bipartisan support.

Posted by: DCO at June 12, 2006 07:33 PM (ht8Md)

64 This case, like so many others, follows the pattern established by Joseph Smith, the first leader of the church who said: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." All the church is saying in this letter, (emphasized by the follow-up visit of a leader), is that the traditional family is something that the church teaches as being fundamental to the purpose of life itself, and something that therefore becomes of a moral nature. Since we happen to live in a society that allows its members the right to have a say in the direction that society goes, the church is simply saying that as a member of the church, and a member of a free society, if you care about the moral direction of the society, this is a matter about which you might want to make your voice heard. We are free, as is Harry Reid, to make our own choice as to whether we will follow their counsel.

Harry Reid would not be excommunicated for expressing his own views. This is exactly why critics of the church have such an empty argument against Mitt Romney running for president. Romney, Reid, Leavitt, or any other public servant is free to "express" himself in the matter he deems most appropriate,without being bound to do whatever the church dictates.

Excommunication is a very different, and weighty process where those who have committed serious sins, or come out in open opposition to the church
place in jeopardy their good standing in the church.

Posted by: val at June 13, 2006 10:20 PM (n2utH)

65 If the Church ex'd Harry for opposing the amendment, they would also have to ex all the politicians who were so slow to follow the church's counsel to exe the MX missile program. They'd also have to ex all the Utah state legislators who voted down the gun control bill that the church publicly supported a few years ago. Etc etc etc...

Luckily, the church doesn't do this. All of you Mormons who are amazed at how Harry can reconcile his private and political convictions should go ask the same question to everyone in your ward that owns a business that's open on Sunday. Grow up. And if you think Orrin and Bob are morally unassailable, you're naive.

And I will tell you this: a good friend of mine in Washington tells me that when the Church needs some help behind the scenes in the capitol, Harry is a much more valuable resource to them than Orrin or Bob.

Posted by: JG at June 14, 2006 09:40 AM (zuYJs)

66 Reid's position does oppose the LDS Church's official stand, make no mistake. This is significant when you think about what Mormons believe. To be clear Mormons believe that there is no difference when the prophet (President Hinckley) speaks than if the Lord has said it Himself. Therefore in the eyes of mormons the Lord has taken the position to support a constitutional amendment.

In any society the family is the fundamental unit. Simple reason follows that what happens to the family will eventually happen to society because the family is society's building block. There are clearly enough studies that show that childern are best developed with a father and a mother. Therefore one must be extreemely concerned with the trivality that Reid has approached this subject, particualry in light of the extensive LDS doctrine regarding the centrality and import of the traditional family to God's plan and mankind's progression.

Posted by: Jon Duersch at June 14, 2006 09:03 PM (k65zk)

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This is an effective rendering, posted on NRO's Phi Beta Cons website, of the core issue involved in the recent Natfhe boycott of Israeli scholars. It's drafted by the president of the National Association of Scholars:

The decision by the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education, one of Britain's two professor unions, to call for a boycott against Israeli academics and universities unless they disavow its "apartheid policies", has been rightfully denounced as an affront to the free exchange of ideas, comity among scholarly truth-seekers and, not least of all, common decency. But it is also a most ugly instance of that habit of collective stigmatization now second nature in academe. White Guilt may not seem a very threatening concept when applied to cosseted, non-lacrosse playing, middle Americans, but when—with effortless mutation—it is visited upon a nation of Jews, things turn ominously dark. A demonized majority may, as a whole, seem safe from immediate danger, but it can be sliced and diced to isolate fragments for exemplary treatment. This is an especially inviting maneuver when victims can be cut out on the basis of thinly disguised prejudice.

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Michelle Malkin writes:

The investigations are still ongoing. That's not an excuse to ignore or dismiss the extensive reporting on the story.

She's right, it's not an excuse. It's a reason to ignore or dismiss the extensive reporting on the story.

Yes, it's mostly one-sided at this point.

Not according to my blogroll. And I have a mighty big blogroll.

But if, if, even a fraction of it is true, it deserves the most vehement condemnation and most severe punishment.

A fraction? What's a fraction of the truth? A half truth? Which is a lie, according to most definitions.

Toddlers are dead.

As much as the Left's glee over this story distresses me, it doesn't compare to my dismay at the Right's attempts to cover it's ass before the fact.

By rushing to get ahead of the curve, relying on leaks from anonymous sources and various press accounts, the people saying "if this is true, and it seems it is, they should hang" are doing as much damage to the war effort as the Left.

But they'll celebrate, as I do, the Greatest Generation. The one that interned Japanese, nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki (toddlers are dead, people), firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, invented the flamethrower, Napalm, White Phosphorous, and various and sundry other horrific ways to kill people.

We correctly laud these things as having been necessary in order to protect our United States, but, the fact is, each of these killled many civilians. And we sanctioned it, and have accepted it for decades.

Such is war.

Yes, let's those of us who weren't there, and never will be, flagellate ourselves over this, without any charges, or Court Martials even being brought. Let's make sure we don't give the Left any excuse to criticize us for not speaking out against it.

Because that's what the Right is doing. Making sure they get in a fraction of condemnation before the Left has a chance to jump on them for not doing so. Because, see, we always have to take the high road. Show them how better we are than they are.

Screw 'em. I don't have to pillory the Marines preemptively to prove I'm better than the moonbats. They've pilloried themselves on this subject quite well already.

So until someone ponies up the fact that Iraqi men, women, and children were lined up against a wall and executed, I'll reserve my judgment on the issue.

Until the truth comes out, shut the hell up about Haditha. Somewhere, Khomeini is smiling.

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So you think Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling are about to be sent to a minimum security prison with conjegul visits?

Conjugul visits? I don't know about that. Try federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

Hey Ken and Jeff. Watch out for your cornholes.

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Images from the police report on Patrick Kennedy's crash near the Capital. Full documents here.

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UPDATE: with commentary by Senator Edward Kennedy.

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Many on both the Left & Right misunderstand the Madisonian system of checks and balances. Those misunderstandings are only amplified when an otherwise rational person goes to law school and is taught that seperation of powers somehow means that each branch of government is fully independent of the others.

If you want to get stupid real fast, go to law school. So it doesn't really surprise me that one our nation's top jurists opens her trap and lets the stupid come out. Newsmax:

Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said Tuesday that a Republican proposal in Congress to set up a watchdog over the federal courts is a "really scary idea." ....

"My sense now is that the judiciary is under assault in a way that I haven't seen before," she said.

As an example, she mentioned proposals by senior Republicans who want an inspector general to police judges' acceptance of free trips or their possible financial interests with groups that could appear before them.

"It sounds to me very much like the Soviet Union was .... That's a really scary idea," said Ginsburg, who was put on the court by President Clinton and is one of its liberal members. ...

Ginsburg said her concerns were about the legislative branch setting up a so-called guardian for the judicial branch. She also said there have been discussions in Congress about limiting the scope of courts.

The Congress shall have power to....To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court.

My favorite part of her statement is the notion that supervising judges for malfeasance is somehow akin to the Soviet Union's political model of the courts. And while were ruminating on the depths of Justice Ginsberg's intellectual capacity, try to wrap your mind around this one: Hitler was a vegetarian, and so is that guy who played the farmer on Babe. Think about it.

Stop the ACLU has more along with some statements from that other judge who the Left is afraid of. You know, Justice Scalia, who wants more democracy. Scary thought, that.

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The Secret Service shut down a 5 year old's birthday party because it was somehow interfering in former President Bill Clinton's golf game. Here's the kicker: the little girl was the daughter of porn star Sophia Rossi.

Right. We're sure you were there for your daughter's birthday, Sophia.... Or maybe it was to see the baby daddy?

In any event, here's the story: Clinton was about to hit his second shot on the fifth hole at Las Vegas Country Club on Saturday when Secret Service agents shut down the fireworks about to be launched by Sophia's daughter. more...

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Welcome Rush readers! Please feel free to comment and check out the MAIN PAGE HERE.

Most people aren't aware that Harry Reid is considered a conservative Democrat. The problem with Harry Reid has never been that he's a liberal, but rather his extreme partisanship. It looks like this may be hurting him at home.

On a personal note, I've spent some time in Reid's old haunts in small town Nevada. I can only say that if Reid's national supporters ever showed up there, they'd likely get their asses kicked.

Las Vegas Sun:

Sen. Harry Reid, once a fairly obscure conservative Democrat from the small state of Nevada, is all the buzz inside the Beltway lately - unfortunately for him, it's the Washington and not the Las Vegas Beltway....

But Reid's national stature among activist Democrats, concentrated on the blue-state coasts, carries risks for him at home, analysts say. His consistent opposition to President Bush and his need to mollify the liberals in his party is costing him in Nevada, where polls show he has lost support since becoming minority leader.

Although Reid, who won re-election in 2004 and still has four years in his term, said in an interview that he pays no attention to polls, his actions in Nevada during the two-week Easter recess suggested that he is keenly aware of his vulnerabilities. He spoke to groups that carry at least a patina of conservatism - chambers of commerce, police and firefighters, religious groups, military men and women, district attorneys.

Reid touted national security, faith-based solutions and anti-gang measures. In front of the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce, he reminded the audience of his support last year for legislation long sought by conservatives that made it harder to declare bankruptcy.

And yet, in the conflict Reid faces - between his more conservative Nevada roots and his new coastal liberal friends - he struggled to quell his bluest, Democratic instincts, launching a shot at Bush at the chamber event.

"How can Republicans support somebody who's running us into the ground like this?"

In the meantime, let me remind my Searchlight Nevada readers that's it's not polite to slash the tires of hybrid cars. Even when the guy driving it has a ponytail.

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I love conspiracy theories. They're just cooler than your run-of-the mill every day type theories that produce falsifiable hypotheses. In fact, I plan to write the definitive book on the subject if I ever get the time (read: quit blogging).

Dean has the skinny on conspiracy theories:

In events with huge numbers of eyewitness events, it is entirely normal for there be witnesses who are confused, misremember things, contradict themselves, or contradict each other....

Personally I think 9/11 was planned by the Illuminati and perpetrated by the Pentavarite. Or maybe the J-O-Os. I'm thinking Nessie had a hand in it too. more...

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Apparently May Day will be celebrated this year by illegal aliens by not going shopping. Personally, I hate shopping. All shopping. Except for guns. And maybe for wicked cool robots. But I might just have to shop on May Day.

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My buddy Bill Dauterieve tells me he spotted South Park creator [and Lord and Savior of this blog] Trey Parker at the Apple Store at the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica the other day. According to Bill, "he was buying socks for his iPod." Not sure what that means, but it must be some super-sikret Hollywood insider lingo.

But that's not the most intriguing part, after asking him if he genuflected upon seeing Trey, he told me no because, "he had this hairy, creepy Japanese manservant/bodyguard watching out for him."

Being Trey Parker's numero uno blog stalker fan, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. In my mind, since the latest Mohammed cartoon flap, he's had to hire himself a Shaolin monk to keep the angry suicide-bombers away.

The other explanation being far too painful to even hint at. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place....

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(San Francisco) Get a load of this. Obviously, a person has to be really, really smart to be a U.S. Appeals Court judge because, no matter how many times average people read the Constitution, they're not going to see what the judges find. This is from the 9th Circuit.

From SacBee.com:

The Eighth Amendment, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishments," bars punishment of "involuntary sitting, lying or sleeping on public sidewalks that is an unavoidable consequence of being human and homeless without shelter in the City of Los Angeles," said a divided panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

The court specifically ruled that the city of Los Angeles could not roust derelicts off the streets unless the taxpayers had previously provided a cozy shelter for every conceivable vagrant that drifts in. In other words, the taxpayers must provide shelter or the homeless have the right, per the Constitution, to involuntarily sit, lie and sleep anywhere they damn well please on city sidewalks.

In conclusion, law school apparently not only teaches the law but also gives students X-ray vision. I still haven't found any reference to "homeless" in the Constitution, much less "involuntary sitting." I don't want to go to law school but I'd sure like to git some of that there X-ray vision.

From Interested-Participant.

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What an incredible smell Confederate Yankee has discovered.

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Dignan is going to challenge Georgia Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. No, not to a fight.

Question: How long before McKinney accuses Dignan of being a racist?

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I for one welcome our new illegal alien overlords. John Hawkins answers the 13 most frequent questions about illegal immigration.

Posted by: Rusty at 10:35 AM | Comments (31) | Add Comment
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John Kerry was for celery, before he was against it. That still leaves the question of his porn addiction unanswered.

Posted by: Rusty at 08:31 AM | Comments (5) | Add Comment
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Half a million marched in Los Angeles, demanding, in effect, the end of the rule of law in the United States, at least as it applies to illegally entering the country. From the Associated Press via The Drudge Report:

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Thousands of immigration advocates marched through downtown Los Angeles in one of the largest demonstrations for any cause in recent U.S. history.

More than 500,000 protesters - demanding that Congress abandon attempts to make illegal immigration a felony and to build more walls along the border - surprised police who estimated the crowd size using aerial photographs and other techniques, police Cmdr. Louis Gray Jr. said.

Wearing white T-shirts to symbolize peace, the demonstrators chanted "Mexico!" "USA!" and "Si se puede," an old Mexican-American civil rights shout that means "Yes, we can."

I fault the Federal government for not having the Immigration and Naturalization Service aggressively checking citizenship at all of these insurrections. Each and every one of the estimated 11.5 million illegal aliens within our borders represents a failure of the government to enforce the laws of the nation.

Also posted at The Dread Pundit Bluto.

Posted by: Bluto at 02:55 PM | Comments (18) | Add Comment
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I know a lot of Mexicans named Jesus. I'm afraid Hillary wasn't talking about any of them.

Posted by: Rusty at 04:18 PM | Comments (8) | Add Comment
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Bill Clinton admits he is the bitch in that relationship. Come on, don't act surprised. The only question is whether or not he and Hillary had a Star Wars themed wedding?

Hat tip to Tim at Opinion Bug and Bill Dauterieve from the Rainey St. alley. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 05:50 PM | Comments (4) | Add Comment
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Contrary to what the partisan defeatists on the Left say, Iraq is not a quagmire. Nor do I believe it is a 'Civil War' as Michael Kraig asserts in yesterday's Des Moines Register. However, that is not to say that things have gone splendidly there either. Things are getting better on the ground in Iraq. But in admitting that things are getting better, we also must realize that things had gone badly. I believe we are heading in the right direction in Iraq, but in hindsight we could have saved ourselves a lot of agony had things gone right in the first place.

So, who is to blame for the long lapse between what should have been done in Iraq to what is actually being done today? Donald Rumsfeld.

It saddens me to come to this conclusion--I love Rumsfeld on so many levels for so many reasons. I love Rumsfeld for being blunt, taking no crap from reporters, his uncanny ability to deconstruct criticisms, and his grand vision of retooling the military to meet future adversaries. Nevertheless, Rumsfeld was in charge of the Iraq invasion and it was Rumsfeld who got so many things wrong.

It is time to let Rumsfeld go. No, it's long past time to let Rumsfeld go.

Paul Eaton's editorial in the NY Times yesterday is wrong on its first point but, I believe, right on its second. First, General Eaton faults Rumsfeld for not building a larger coalition in Iraq. This is just a stupid criticism. Any one who thinks that Iraq was a failure in diplomacy just does not understand why coalitions are formed. Nations aren't talked into military invasions, they join military coalitions because they believe it is in their national interests to do so. Clearly, the fall of Saddam Hussein was not in the best interests of France and Russia.

But there is a great deal of merit to the second argument: that Rumsfeld was wrong on nearly all fronts on how the war in Iraq would develop once the invasion stage was complete.

Mr. Rumsfeld has also failed in terms of operations in Iraq. He rejected the so-called Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force and sent just enough tech-enhanced troops to complete what we called Phase III of the war — ground combat against the uniformed Iraqis. He ignored competent advisers like Gen. Anthony Zinni and others who predicted that the Iraqi Army and security forces might melt away after the state apparatus self-destructed, leading to chaos.

It is all too clear that General Shinseki was right: several hundred thousand men would have made a big difference then, as we began Phase IV, or country reconstruction. There was never a question that we would make quick work of the Iraqi Army.

But as Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor document in their book Cobra II : The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq there were tons of missed opportunities after the brilliant invasion. At each turn, when it was possible to rectify these problems early on, one man seemed to stand in the way: Donald Rumsfeld. You can hear the authors discussing their book here.

It seems that one of the very reasons that I love Donald Rumsfeld is the reason why he has been such a lousy Secretary of Defense--his ability to poke holes in his critics' arguments. It is a great intellectual ability to have, but when that ability is turned on those who urge corrective action then it can become dangerous. Donald Rumsfeld did not want to hear that we needed many more troops on the ground right after the invasion. He was so convinced of the superiority of his position, that more than a few military officials were sacked.

This is no way to run any department of government--especially the military during a hot war.

Perhaps Rumsfeld has learned his lesson. Things in Iraq are going much better than they were two years ago. Month after month U.S. casualties have been on the decline. Month after month the Iraqis themselves take control of more territory and take the lead in fighting terrorist forces. But if Rumsfeld and the Pentagon have learned their lesson, then aren't we admitting that they screwed up somewhere along the road? And if someone screwed up, shouldn't they be held accountable? And if that someone turns out to be Donald Rumsfeld--as I believe it probably is--then why hasn't President Bush fired him?

There are other lessons Rumsfeld and the Pentagon have not learned. Foremeost is the way to fight the internet and information war. They have ignored the information war altogether--although paying a lot of public lip service to it. As Robert Malloy and Peter Harling remind us today, the insurgents believe they are winning. I would argue that this is largely because we allow them to create their own discourse through the internet.

Given the choice between the Bush Administration and any of the choices offered by the Democrats, I'd still vote for Bush despite the many failures along the way in Iraq. Ulysses S. Grant was probably not the greatest military strategist and was wrong on a number of occasions. By all accounts, George B. McClellan was a better strategist and perhaps the greatest military organizer of the time. But given the choice between McClellan's perfect inaction and Grant's imperfect action, Lincoln made the right choice in firing the timid McClellan. The Democrats have only offered McClellan like alternatives in the past.

Fortunately, today's alternatives are not so stark. President Bush could easily replace Donald Rumsfeld as it is too late to go back to the policy of appeasement offered by the Democratic party. And even though the short-term consequences of firing Rumsfeld might negatively affect the Republican party (if if is conceivable that they could go even lower in the polls), I'm afraid that by sticking with Rumsfeld is to convey the message that all has gone right in Iraq from the begining and will only hurt the party in the long-term

Just a thought. Sorry to piss off my many loyal Republican readers and doubly sorry if this helps the Democrats in any way.

Update: For a second there, I thought I had an original thought. Maybe not. Rob from Say Anything sends this along. Add both Rob and Fred Barnes to the list.

Fred Barnes:

The president's most spectacular move would be to anoint a presidential successor. This would require Vice President Cheney to resign. His replacement? Condoleezza Rice, whom Mr. Bush regards highly. Her replacement? Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, whose Bush-like views on Iraq and the war on terror have made him a pariah in the Democratic caucus.

Mr. Cheney would probably be happy to step down and return to Wyoming. But it would make more sense for him to move to the Pentagon to replace Donald Rumsfeld as defense secretary, a job Mr. Cheney held during the elder Bush's administration. The Senate confirmation hearing for Mr. Cheney alone would produce political fireworks and attract incredible attention. At Treasury, Mr. Bush has a perfect replacement for John Snow, someone he already knows. That's Glenn Hubbard, former chairman of Mr. Bush's council of economic advisers and currently dean of Columbia's business school. He is in sync with Mr. Bush ideologically and has the added value of being respected on Wall Street.

Rob at Say Anything has more.

Posted by: Rusty at 04:57 PM | Comments (65) | Add Comment
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Critical UPDATE 3/17: A new Rasmussen poll has the numbers reversed! 45% opposed and 38% in favor of censure. A poll by the American American Research Group, released yesterday, had claimed that more Americans want Bush censured than didn't want Bush censured for alleged misdeeds committed in spying on suspected terrorists telephone calls. Is it possible the American people simply don't know what the word "censure" means?

Here is how Rasmussen worded the question:

Senator Russ Feingold has introduced a measure to censure, or publicly reprimand, President Bush for authorizing the NSA wiretapping program. Should President Bush be censured for authorizing the NSA wiretapping program?

Dan Riehl has further analysis. My original post from yesterday in which I questioned the legitimacy of the poll is below. I said something was fishy, and I guess I was right!

------------------------- more...

Posted by: Rusty at 02:47 PM | Comments (24) | Add Comment
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1 oh god. Another non-scandal.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 16, 2006 05:33 PM (8e/V4)

2 Please, Republicans don't answer the phone and if they do they have hung up before the pollster get's through their first sentence.

How many Republicans (like myself) are never polled because we have no home phone.......

I look forward to seeing how wrong the polls are for the 06 elections

Posted by: Fred Fry at March 16, 2006 06:11 PM (HJnrm)

3 Newflash to these morons, Bush isn't running for reelection.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at March 16, 2006 06:15 PM (8e/V4)

4 Rusty

Have any info on the potential and future impact on any kind of polling by those (like myself) who now depend solely on cell phones. I'm out of the loop on any kind of landline based polling/sales etc.

Posted by: hondo at March 16, 2006 06:24 PM (9pQ6D)

5 I LOVE THEY WAY THE QUESTION IS WORDED!

I already know that if the wording on THIS question is altered - the results would do a 180!!!!!

IS THAT IT? IS THIS ALL YOU GOT?

I'd love to go the Censure Hearing" route on this - preferably a few months prior to the '06 elections! Please! Do it!

Any wonder why the Dems sheepishly slithered away from this one. My God! Who's in charge over there? they really have no clue whose turn it is to wipe.

Posted by: hondo at March 16, 2006 06:40 PM (9pQ6D)

6 Does anyone ever take these wacko, fringe group polls serious?? Well, other than the Wackos!

Posted by: Mike at March 16, 2006 07:18 PM (2tRi8)

7 Wowser. Pixy Misa commented? This must be serious. ;-) Don't shoot me, just teasing.

It's my understanding that the word "wiretapping" is inaccurate. And the question only addresses the fact that an American is on the phone. Not some scum sucking, American hating, got-my-citizenship-only-so-I-could-sue-someone, ACLU loving a**hole.

Posted by: Oyster at March 16, 2006 08:29 PM (YudAC)

8 Oyster!

GAWD! THE LANGUAGE!

Posted by: hondo at March 16, 2006 08:45 PM (9pQ6D)

9 Hey! I drank wine tonight. I have an excuse. [burp]

Posted by: Oyster at March 16, 2006 08:59 PM (YudAC)

10 You go on with your bad self girl.

Posted by: Imprbulus Maximus at March 16, 2006 09:10 PM (0yYS2)

11 Oyster,

I remember Pixy Misa coming in here one time with a gang of playful otters. Or is that herd of otters? Whatever, I can't even remember what we were talking about, but it might have been religion. She can eviscerate you if she wants to, I can tell you that. Oh, hi, Pixy Misa, how do you do?

Posted by: jesusland joe at March 16, 2006 09:45 PM (rUyw4)

12 And one more comment to fix my URL...

Posted by: Pixy Misa at March 16, 2006 10:03 PM (RbYVY)

13 I don't know what you find so hard to believe about 29% of Republicans wanting censure. It was your party that was saying for years the president is not above the law. It seems 29% of your base must believe it.

Posted by: Dick Tuck at March 17, 2006 03:13 AM (lZePN)

14 Too many people use poll results to help influence their own decisions. Those that do are intellectually lazy. I'm not saying anyone here is, but you get my drift. This poll question, in particular, was asked with an assumption that the people responding knew enough about the issue to answer knowledgeably.

BTW: I commented on several threads last night after a wine tasting. I tend to get snarky when drunk.

Do I owe anyone an apology?

Posted by: Oyster at March 17, 2006 06:46 AM (YudAC)

15 Maybe a lot of people didn't read the whole question - I think he should be censured, but for signing McCain-Feingold and for overseeing profligate spending.

Posted by: Glenmore at March 17, 2006 06:56 AM (loaB2)

16 This place is a scream. What a sewer.

Your Dear Leader is spying on domestic calls without a warrant, between Americans. This isn't in dispute.

But hey - cry about "poll bias" or whatever denial game you cultists play. It's just amusing to watch your sinking ship and the antics you go through in the process.

Posted by: Bud Grant at March 17, 2006 09:34 AM (/gcFd)

17 Can we realy trust any poll taken by the liberals anyway? polls like CNN/TIME AP/UPI and the rest of them are a little suspecious to me

Posted by: sandpiper at March 17, 2006 09:52 AM (D9h75)

18 Uh, Bud, we're all on the same ship. Sorry to be the one to break the bad news to you. And didn't you die, or at least retire? Whatever, get to bailing!

Posted by: jesusland joe at March 17, 2006 10:13 AM (rUyw4)

19 "This isn't in dispute."

Yes it is.

Posted by: Oyster at March 17, 2006 11:21 AM (g9UJq)

20 A significant plurality of Americans can't spell "censure", much less explain what it is.

Posted by: Theocrat at March 17, 2006 12:44 PM (daAGo)

21 Boy! Now that's a winning strategy! I'm lovin' it!

Oh! But you can spell it .... sooooo .... the message (claim) is ..... what exactly?

Please! Pile on more of this winnin' formula!

Posted by: hondo at March 17, 2006 02:21 PM (9pQ6D)

22 I think I understand what Theocrat means. Start asking around to your colleagues what the word means and see how many are right. I'm sure it would depend on the environment one works in, but where I work we have a lot of double digit IQs and the first digit is "0".

Posted by: Oyster at March 17, 2006 02:26 PM (g9UJq)

23 Libtards like Bud can't seem to grasp that though he's entitled to his own opinion, he isn't entitled to his own facts. Jesus H., liberals are stupid.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 18, 2006 05:29 AM (0yYS2)

24 Thanks Rusty. When the pundits started quoting this poll over the weekend. Cokie Roberts, whom I like but she quoted it anyway, for example. I knew exactly which poll and how it was taken and how it was skewed.

Rusty kicks ass no question.

Posted by: Howie at March 20, 2006 03:43 PM (D3+20)

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