1

The Westboro Baptists are another fine example of people who allow god into their lives. Muslims, Baptists, haters... its all the same ball of wax.

NOTE TO FISHELLE: I DON'T TOLERATE SOCK PUPPETS ON MY THREADS. PICK A POSTING NAME AND STICK TO IT.

2 This is turning into a "South Park" Episode!
 
"Not without my Anuses"

3 South Park and anuses... what is this, Google Bait for Andrew Sullivan?

4 Yeah, it's God's fault that the Westboro Baptist Church is a bunch of paste-eaters.

5 Really Carlos? You sound just as close-minded as the Westboro people do.

6

Fishelle Talkin: Yeah, they're at least as evil as Mother Teresa, Abraham Lincoln, and 98% of the population of the United States.

We don't really encourage retardates to post here, unless they're entertaining. Work on it.

7 Atheists are a growing proportion of the population, thank Ba'al. More than 2% of the population (you implied 98% of Americans are religious). And good old Abe was not near the faithist you would like to believe him to have been. As for Mother Theresa, she was a Catholic sadist and evil witch who liked to screw the poor.
 
From the CIA World Factbook on the United States:
 
Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

8 I may be an atheist but I am much more of an anti-theist, especially when it comes to Islam or the Westboro Baptists. We may disagree on God, but when it comes to honoring soldiers or confronting Islam, we are all on the same side.

9 Fred Phelps and his congregation are a sad bunch in need of attention, same with Carlos here in these comments whose link is bogus, i'd say they're all eaten-up with the Dumbass.

10 "Anti-theist?" Oh, you mean "bigot."

11 Funny thing is!
 
they are not fighting over God!
 
They are fighting over who God spoke to first!!!!
 
But the point is mute, God does not exsist!
 
If you can prove he exsists then i'll convert!

12 Okay Dread. You got the last jab in. Feel better?

13 And if I am a bigot because I am anti-Muslim and anti-Westboroist, then so be it. I am in good company here.

14 What's a anti-Westboroist anyways?
 

15 USC SUCKS!

16 "If you can prove he exsists then i'll convert!

Posted by: sol at December 2, 2006 07:28 PM "

Since you can't prove there isn't a supreme being I find that amusing.

One can't very well prove color to a blind person, or music to a deaf person, so I don't think anyone will be proving a matter of faith to you either. If your insensible to spirtuality, whether willfully, or by some deficiency, thats not something I know how to fix.

From a philosophical point of view, God may be discussed within the edge of science. Exibit A for a 'First Cause' is the universe itself. It is entirely possible for the mechanisms we see in nature to have been designed. Possible.

That isn't good enough to pass as Biology, or Paleontology, nor does it currently belong in Physics for any practical reason. It does suit philosophy just fine.

Your free to deny the possibility of such a supreme being, but your denial is as much an act of faith as is anyone elses acceptance of of the possibility.

You may argue for 'God' or against. Until there is evidence that proves either point with certainty, as there is proof for gravity, the argument may continue. All claims by either side of such a debate, are framed within the faith, and dogma, of the person making the argument.

They are 'faith based'.

So have your faith, and if you can prove God doesn't exist, I'll convert.

Till then, lets talk trash about Westboro's cruelty together! Agreed?

USA all the way!

17 More fighting, demostrating and hatred in the name of God.

18 Careful now. Telling the truth is bigotry. Did you know that illegal Mexicans kill more Americans than the terrorists? Damn, here I go with the bigotry again.

19 I'll say it again: Patriot Guard Riders. If you want to keep the Westboro assholes OR the moonbats away from your funerals, call those guys. The assholes and moonbats are NOT going to mess with a bunch of bikers.

20 Mr. Weaver,

 I'd say atheists possess more faith than we do, after all, they believe chaos begets organization, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. they have to chuck pretty much all the discoveries in physics out the window and deny their own existence to maintain this philosophy. that's hard work, ya know.

21 The Westboro Baptist Church is proof that Christianity should be outlawed and anybody who believes in such tripe should be thrown in Guantanamo Bay and tortured.

If you disagree with this, you work for Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.

Christianity = Al-Qaeda

Regards,

I Support Bush

22 Mr. Krauss

Thanks for the supporting remarks.

Obviously any discussion of where we can from, and what is or is not possible, is rooted in speculation. Faith of some kind.

I believe it is possible to someday know the answer, and until then, I am experiencing a better life for myself by being open, rather than closed.

I was an Atheist for awhile. What turned me off was the scorn that Atheist directed against vlaues that they associated with Christianity.

From a purely logical, social value position, is it better to prevent teen pregnancy, or to prevent a pregnant teen from giving birth? An Atheist will (not always) but often see little difference between the two.

I have personally witnessed Atheism used as a method to blow off self restraint, or reject personal responsability for destructive relationships, and hurtful behavior.

I have to insert the Fifth Amendement here, and just settle for saying I'm not impressed by what Atheists allow themselves on the basis of 'subjective morality'.

I have a few Atheist friends. I do have one good, solid, decent, (strong)Atheist friend, who believes that Atheism requires that much more personal responsability. He walks the walk as well. I find him to be an exception.

Why are the other guys still my friends? Well being messed up doesn't make you evil. Not by itself. Besides, Jesus is forgiving

USA all the way!

23 Re: AynRandland Carlos (I'm assuming you're JLC posting as your own counterpart)

Dude, some people can't see the forest for the /sarc tags!

Now, personally, I tend to see God as sort of a universal Godwin. If your position requires bringing one in, you need to put it back in the oven, it's not ready.

I don't believe in gods. Other people are free to do so, insofar as they are not trying to cut my head off, nuke my hometown, "protest" at the funeral of a soldier, or something similarly annoying. I'm very much a Jeffersonian in that respect:

"t does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

The Westboro boys could be prime material for atheist recruiting, if there were such a thing outside the minds of the O'Reillyites. I honestly don't know what to make of them. Is it some sort of clever ruse, or are they really that psychotic?

24 I have personally witnessed Atheism used as a method to blow off self restraint, or reject personal responsability (sic) for destructive relationships, and hurtful behavior.

Objection: post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Unless you want this very contention turned around, you must show causal relation.

Contention: Unless you wish to contend that people are intrinsically evil, and can only behave if they believe they are under constant observation, then you have less faith in humanity than I.

Contention: People of all stripes exhibit the behaviors that you mention. Ergo, assholes will be assholes, regardless of their belief system.

I have never heard of an atheist serial killer. The one's I've read of tend to believe a) They are God; (b) God talks to them; (c) God can't stop them.

Why are the other guys still my friends? Well being messed up doesn't make you evil. Not by itself. Besides, Jesus is forgiving

Objection: Assumes Facts Not In Evidence.

In your contention, someone who spent their whole life doing positive things is still "messed up", somehow less, as well as doomed to perdition if they don't "repent". Now that is messed up.

25 Mr. Weaver,

If an atheist was true to his belief, he would not be offended by Christianity, (perhaps somewhat amused by it). these clowns posting the rather silly and hateful comments here have issues with their maker, believing that if there is a God, God is unfair because he didn't make the world like they would have it. and whom they obviously believe in, or they would not be hostile, would they?(if you truly believe there is no God, you'd not be hostile to the idea, would you?)

     The Westboro bunch are simply a bunch of clowns grabbing for some attention, sad caricatures far removed from Christian values, if they were true to their belief they would be spending their time spreading the good news of salvation, not chanting hateful crap at most sensitive and hurting times. they've no respect for their fellows, and exhibit  extreme selfishness  in their actions.  not the love  of their  Lord. if they had serious concern for the homosexual community, they'd be preaching the word to them, not trying to disturb families burying their brave soldiers killed in action and mourning their losses.

       Real Christians are not hostile, cirtainly not hostile to the hurting that have just lost loved ones, that's kind of sick, no matter what you're philosophy.

peace. M

               

26 We dont want special rights for gays but our imperial judges are ruling otherwise

27 To MegaTroopX

My disclaimer is that I do know one 'nice' Atheist, his one great fault is that he is horribly bigoted against anyone who isn't an Atheist. We don't talk much about religion having agreed to a truce, on that topic.

While Atheism is not an exclusive source for mischief, the absence of respect for a higher law is what makes the Atheistic style of justifying bad behavior special. The rejection of a sense of 'oblective morality'' allows a subjective, or selfish interpretation of right and wrong.

"post hoc ergo propter hoc"
If that's Latin, I don't do it very well, so please come down to earth so we can communicate.

Causal? yeah. It is possible for bad deeds to be justified by religion, but there is always an 'objective morality' point of view. This means that some things are just moral, and not subject to selfish debate. Considering bad behavior, a 'believer' has one more reason to stop. Something higher than human law says not to do that thing, whatever it was.

Prohibitions against stealing, or murdering, or cheating on you spouse have the weight of objective moral authority, and that in turn, means if you believe in, and accept that such authority exists, then you can temper personal weakness with that knowledge.

It serves as the moral psychological equivalant of having locked a car door. Someone determined to do evil, will find a way. Someone who is naturally benevolent, didn't even think about it. The guy looking in the window at the wallet on the car seat has one more obstacle to overcome.

Atheism throws that 'obstacle' out as superstition. This encourages bad behavior. No door lock equals more temptation.

As you say "Assholes will be asholes", and you have some meat on that bone. However, an asshole with no concern, or thought to a larger moral objective reality, is more free to do wrong. If for example Jesus is a myth, then why bother considering his teachings? For instance, to turn the other cheek, and give someone another chance.

A good Atheist will consider the option, as will any person of a moral philosophy that encourages civil behavior. I am saying that an Atheist is bounded by no such ethical background unless it came from another belief system. This doesn't mean an Atheist will not feel compassion, or empathize with other people. They can make a moral judgement based on natural impulses of social behavior. They must embrace their human empathy, and be guided by that, in the absence of moral teaching. That is OK when it works.

Going further however, those impulses can be percieved as artificial, and disposable by an Atheist, because he is always, and absolutly, his own moral judge. A more traditionally religious person will accept that these impulses were made part of mankind, when mankind was concieved. That they serve a higher purpose, and that they are not to be ignored or casually discarded.

Having a moral framework in place, one that places behavior under the moral authority of a higher power than man, adds a layer of restraint, and provides additional support for community standards of polite behavior.

I'm not saying people are naturally evil, but I am saying they are naturally conflicted, and subject to temptations. It's really that simple.

As for serial killers, I'm not ready to answer that in detail. Half my books are in storage. I will respond loosely with the following: If the killer thinks he is God, that means he has no higher objective authority to answer to. In short, he has no God above him, like an Atheist has no God above him.

If God can't stop them, they share that with Atheism as well. God can't stop an Atheist, if there is no God. Either way, any vice is optional to such a point of view.

As for God talking to someone, I say its possible, but I also say it's a great way for a non-believer to sound crazy to a judge. I'll add that most religions recognize some sort of 'devil' and the devil can talk to people to.

Personally I think God talks to lots of people. Not in the way you might be thinking. I can tell if coffee is decaf or not by tasting it. Some people can't. I think you have to be open to percieve things not obvious on a cursory level.

Now I see you make an assumption that because I profess to Christianity, I think 'good' Atheists are all going to hell. I don't. I'm non-denominational as a policy. I think God is smart enough, and compassionate enough to see through a person's soul (if you will) and know why they thought the way they did.

If you were born during the Ice Age you couldn't know about Jesus. Obviously that doesn't make moral sense to send that soul to hell, outright. In exploring that point we enter the realm of philosophy, and we discuss man's understanding of God, and the substance of religious teaching.

I will contend that God is poorly understood by anyone living, and that even the word ascribed to him has been handled by men, and is therefore not in pure and origional form.

When I say my old Atheist friends are messed up, most decent Atheists would agree. Drugs, and failed marriages, and amoral criminal behavior are a start. I'm sad for them, not hateful, and I hope they can find something to believe in that is more than just the moment they are living in, but I don't expect any of them to go to hell just for behavior.

I believe God knows intent. That matters.

Saying there is no God, means 'don't get caught and your OK' for to many people. Simple logic supports the psychology of religion as a factor in self restraint.

As for my full position on Atheism. I don't like the way Atheists are intolerant of any other beliefs. I don't like Atheists unjustly usurping guardianship of the First Amendment from all other kinds of belief. I don't like Atheists trying to rewrite history to discredit the beliefs that shaped the good character of this nation. I don't like Atheists who slip into bad behavior because 'Why not', and 'only getting caught is against the law' type of thinking.

I do admire the Atheist who is able to say he doesn't believe, and can let others be beievers in spite of that. Atheists who can be an Atheist in public, and let a Christian be a Christian in public. I admire a willingness on some Atheists part to take personal responsability, rather than dodge it as an artificial concern.

In short, I am for FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION. I draw the line at letting people behead the infidel, or have sex with children, or any of those things we know infringe directly, and physically, on anothers rights.

Skip the Latin. Most people don't do it any better than I do. If you have a good point, it should be able to be expressed at a level most people could relate to.

Why can't you accept free exercise of religion? It's in the Constitution you know?

USA all the way!

28 And to the people who hate long posts , I ask you to forgive me. I will try to behave in the future. Please see this as a defense of the Constitution, not an attack on any one belief.

USA all the way!

29 Michael: Some atheists are tolerant of religon. As long as that religion doesn't wish to cut my head off.

30 I have class today, but I'd really like to compose a good reply. Get back to you this afternoon/evening.

BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

31 Warning: Long post ahead. Viewer discretion advised

To begin at the end. I do endorse, and swore to protect, the Constitution, including the free exercise of religion. More so, in fact, then the "Christian Nation"-ist individuals who consider it to mean "any religion you want, as long as it's Christian" (a la Ford's choices of any color in the Model T). At no point did I call for a banning, or even a restriction, of Christianity. Nor do I throw my lot with those who consider church-derived charities a violation of the establishment clause.

objective morality - Exists, but need not be given from on high. The simplest way to break it down is "No direct harm". Murder, rape, theft, cheating, etc. all directly harm others, and thus even the simplest non-psychopath can figure it out. Even non-sapient social animals can (at least within their own group). Of the Commandments, only a few can, or should, apply to modern jurisprudence. The rest are essentially thoughtcrime legislation.

In fact, all the baggage that comes along with the commands of a "higher power" (filtered as they are through humans and their prejudices), does directly harm people. Take the HPV vaccine, for example. Here we have a preventative against a cancer precursor, designed to cut off one head of that baneful hydra of the modern age, and there are actually protests against it, as it would cause women to "be more sexually active". That was one heck of a WTF moment, and had such people been listened to, a major direct harm to people.

Atheism throws that 'obstacle' out as superstition. This encourages bad behavior. No door lock equals more temptation.

And yet, we resist. Honestly, people who are rotten are not going to be stopped by God, anymore then they will be stopped by the laws of man.

his one great fault is that he is horribly bigoted against anyone who isn't an Atheist.

Consider: Maybe he's bigoted because he's a bigot, not because he is an atheist. We all have challenges.

If for example Jesus is a myth, then why bother considering his teachings?

A positive value doesn't gain or lose validity by source. Values that encourage benevolent behavior to one's fellow beings are valid whether they come from Jesus, Buddha, or the US Army. One need not believe in Jesus-as-deity to gain value from the teachings attributed to him.

Honestly, I just get sick of having the two main choices be, no, not godless liberalism vs. christian conservatism; but the Church of Marx (And I defy anyone to tell me that's not what it is) vs. the sort of American Anglicanism (Christianity or bust) that seems to be the requirement to not be "the enemy" nowadays. I'll believe that fight's over when atheists are not just above Muslims in the hatred scale.

The fight is counterproductive, and distracts from the existential battle against a faith that believes itself destined to rule the world and destroy all comers.

We're all in the crosshairs, so it's about bloody time we act like it.
.
.
.
BTW: I'm thankful every day to the PEOPLE that continually ensure that I can engage in such stimulating debate without "re-education" or a violent-minded religious policeman getting his blood-soaked mitts on me.

PS the 2nd: Re: From a purely logical, social value position, is it better to prevent teen pregnancy, or to prevent a pregnant teen from giving birth?

The prevention. We have the capacity to make sure that we don't have children until such time as we are both capable of, and willing to, give them a life of love and provision. But we apparently do not have the will to use these tools.

When people use abortion as birth control, you get Russia (a state that is on the demographic ropes). With no birth control at all, you get Africa (extreme privation).

32 This will be short for me

I apologise to all Atheists who I may have offended. I've known my share of Christian assholes as well.

To MegaTroopX and others, Ive just spent so much time on that wierd thread about Chicago hating Jesus that I guess I was in full battle mode.

I sense that Greyrooster may be one I offended, and I again, apologize. I could blame Fishelle, or Puddle, but if they made me mad its my own fault. I try to make friends, not enemies. Its why I have so many weird friends.

I must insist on free expression! Unfortunately, Jihadist are doing the very things that put free expression at risk. This drives me crazy. I agree with MegaTroopX that this sort of argument is distracting.

The reasons why I have wandered from Christianity, to Atheism, to Paganism, to Christianity again, have made me willing to give anyone a fair chance to have their beliefs. I hope I at least made that clear.

Thanks for the discussion, but I think I'm out of steam. See you all later.

USA all the way!

33 This Westboro Baptist church not only hates the Gay-Community but African-Americans, Canada, Sweden, the Fire Department of NY, victims of 911, Christian Churches, The Pope, Judaism, America, Our American Troops, and the list goes on and on. Many of the groups they despise are specifically named on their hate propaganda, picket signs, and their many websites. They not only hate, but wish death on all that they do hate.
This sick, so called church spreads its hate through picketing in our streets, provoking attacks, with abusive vulgar language. Worst of all, they endanger their own young children, having them man the front lines in their combative demonstrations - attempting to create a confrontation and cause for one more of their frivolous lawsuits.
If a mother has given her son to this country and is putting Him in his grave, this is not the time or the place. This is not about protesters, this is about a group that calls that mother names on the way into a church to say goodbye to that son. We are not talking about FREEDOM we are talking about human decency. This is not about protesting, this is about a life of hate. They are not peaceful. They are not a "church". They go after any thing that can get them in the news. I am all for protest when there is a reason, I have been in many. This group will protest anything to get its face on TV. It is about an old man lost in the darkness of hate, but will put his six year old grandson in danger to save himself. Do we have a real need to protest at any funeral? Is that a real Freedom.
The city of Topeka, the state of Kansas and the U.S. at large, its citizens and their Churches, schools and events are all held hostage by this "hate group" - always at the tax payer's expense. With this group it is just not about Freedom. It is only about HATE.

34 Michael: The Greyrooster is not that small. I was only making a point. No my friend,' one unintentional transgession will not reduce my respect for you. Don't be so touchy. We are here to kick ass.