1 Thanks for the link, Doc. Too Americans many are afraid to look directly at our enemies and what they did. They fear that what they see will cause them to feel hatred and fill them with a lust for bloody revenge. They think that to have such thoughts will stain their souls. Maybe they are right, but it is a dangerous indulgence.

2 The media won't show this because they're corporate controlled and they don't want to expose the crimes the Bush administration and it's neocon puppet-masters (you know jay-oh-ohs) perpetrated on the American people.

/leftist nonsense

3 greyrooster: too many people saw only planes crashing into buildings followed by the collapses. They don't understand that people really died because they didn't see it. They usually vote Democrat.

4 Even worse than the falling bodies are the crushed, indistinct corpses on the pavement, looking as pathetic as stepped-on ants. The up close shots of the inferno in the building are just as bad.

I live in NJ and the WTC was part of my local landscape, visible from my old office building in Lyndhurst. I was no stranger to the WTC; I took my wife-to-be to a dinner at the "Windows on the World" Restaurant there in February 2001, and we even had the waiter snap a picture of us together because we knew it was a special evening, which we wanted to remember.

That photo is now a momento from a vanished world.

Five years on, what bothers me most is how divided our country is in combating the threat of Islamo-fascism, and how willing the Left is to sweep the whole conflict under the rug, since they are incapable of using this country's military power to advance national interests. The Bush administration has made many mistakes in the war on terror, but if the Democrats return to power we can expect a complete retreat, as if 9/11 had never happened at all.

5 Deleters have ugly mothers.

6 leopold,

conspiracy theorist wackos make regular ol Leftists seem like pillars of logic and rationality by comparison. I despise Leftists, but the conspiracy wackos positively make my skin crawl, much like roaches do.

7 JLC: point taken. What really bothers me, though, is that I used to be able to have serious, engaging, challenging conversations with leftists/progressives -- but now they seem to have all gone the way of The Nation and become little more than partisan democrats (who are increasingly conspiracy wackos).

An exception, if anyone's interested -- check out Paul Berman's Terror and Liberalism.

8 Thanks guys; you've provided a service. On 09/11 I was in D.C. and watched the Pentagon butning out of my office window. In the mid-eighties I took bicycle messenger gigs in Manhatten during the summers, and have been up those towers many times.

Think I'll post this on my little music blog tomorrow without comment.

9 This clip should be shown everyday to adults and school children alike...

It doesn't pay to FORGET who we are dealing with in the war on terror

10 God those poor people who felt that they had no choice but to take their own lives


My heart goes out to all their loved ones even after5 years I bet the pain has not faded.

I think altough this video is sad and shocking I think that it MUST be seen by as many people as possible. That day was not about planes or buildings it was about human beings.

11 bush got his way. He got the Government, power and everything is in his control. But he cant fool people for long, especially those who use their heads and do not buy everything he feeds them.

12 How does one know what the truth is when deleters are around?

13 Vinnie: Then leave my comments up and let others decide if this ghoulish bullshit is neccessary. Some years ago we had two babies ran over by the tires on a semi. No one needs to see their deaths over and over to understand what happened. Same here.
I can see some kid in NYC watching the video and saying "the man falling from the 82nd floor looks like my daddy" Nice to know you daddy didn't die quick.

14 "No one needs to see their deaths over and over to understand what happened."
GreyRooster,
I don't remember the exact portion of our population, but it was like 1/3 who think Bush staged 9/11.

Yes, people really are that stupid.

15 You know, I can't stop there. With 9/11 being forgotten and relegated to the past as the Democrats move to take power and ensure we have to deal with this whole episode again, I figure let's rub the truth in your wounds Grey.
How many people deny the Holocaust?
People like the insane Basiji leader are striving for nukes, denying the Holocaust, and threatening to wipe Israel, read Jews, off the face of the planet.

16 Watching this after a week of hearing the Clintonistas protest that they dealt effectively with terrorism makes my blood boil. Disney and ABC are shit for caving to them.

17 "Disney and ABC are shit for caving to them."

They haven't caved as far as I know. From what I have heard they are simply editing out the extra lines they put in for dramatic effect. I believe they are leaving in the truth about Clinton being a lying, manipulating, and cowardly president.

18 A very good rememberance

http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html

19 This film is a close-up of tragedy.

Part two of the tragedy is the Bush administration follow-up over these past five years. When one thinks of how many more of the Al Queda perpetrators could have been brought to justice, how much better our limited resources (yes, even America has limited resources) could have been used, how much more progress in our efforts against Islamic extremism we could be making, and how much safer America itself could be at this very instant, it makes you even sicker to look at this film.

The next administration, Republican or Democrat, is going to have to spend years undoing the foolhardyness of this president and his minions. I wish them luck.

20 The next administration, Republican or Democrat, is going to have to spend years undoing the foolhardyness of this president and his minions. I wish them luck.

Just as appropriate during the 2000 elections. True, the handling of the GWOT by the Bush administration has not been perfect. However, one has to wonder what the outcome to date would have been if Democratic politicians and their cohorts in the lobby groups and media outlets had not sought to undermine efforts at every opportunity, at home and abroad.

21 "The next administration, Republican or Democrat, is going to have to spend years undoing the foolhardyness of this president and his minions. I wish them luck."

Al Qaeda is the symptom, the middle east is the disease. Obviously you are the type of person who takes asprin to ward off the symptoms of Cancer until you are terminal.

22 >>>The next administration, Republican or Democrat, is going to have to spend years undoing the foolhardyness of this president and his minions. I wish them luck.

Well, if the Dems win back the White House in '08 they better start thinking of what they'd do different, because so far it's a complete mystery. They have no plan. They just give us empty rhetoric (much like yours).

23 Then leave my comments up and let others decide if this ghoulish bullshit is neccessary. Some years ago we had two babies ran over by the tires on a semi. No one needs to see their deaths over and over to understand what happened. Same here.

Oh, please. Islamic terrorism is an ongoing problem and we are likely to see another attack on this scale in the future, so we have to maintain clarity about what it is we are dealing with. Two babies in a traffic accident is, well, an accident and is of a completely different nature from deliberate mass murder.

Often in trials prosecutors show the photos of the crime scene to the jury even though the jury knows what happened. Is this "ghoulish"? Or is it an effort to convey more clearly the nature of what someone deliberately did in order to strengthen the will of the jury?

24 I had never before watched any clips of those poor souls who felt they had no other choice but to jump. Damn those people who think it is the President's fault. This is not one man's fault (Bush's or Clinton's), but the legacy of an insanity that teaches that hatred and its actions are a religious experience...an ignorant and bigoted 'faith'.

25 When one thinks of how many more of the Al Queda perpetrators could have been brought to justice, how much better our limited resources (yes, even America has limited resources) could have been used, how much more progress in our efforts against Islamic extremism we could be making, and how much safer America itself could be at this very instant, it makes you even sicker to look at this film.

Translation: Al Qaeda did this, but I would prefer to displace my anger onto the traditional object of my hatred, President Bush. And as a bonus, I will offer that if a genius such as myself were in charge, none of this would be happening.

Your statements are adolescent and are nothing more than an adult variation of a child's "If I Were President" essay. If I were President, I would use the nation's limited resources to cure world hunger, end war and terrorism, and eliminate homework. The administration came up with a reasonable plan for addressing terror: reform the political culture of the states that sponsor it one at a time. This plan was bound to be a boondoggle given the intransigence of the people on the other side, but guess what: there probably are no good plans out there for dealing with the fact that for somewhere between 10 and a hundred million Muslim men in this world, this video of the jumpers brings tears to their eyes. Tears of joy, that is.

26 Reading this I see exactly what's wrong with this country. While complaining about the particanship on the left I see the statement "I despise Leftists".

Start using your brains and thinking about what's best for the country as a whole. While I shudder to imagine how 9/11 would have been addressed by the Gore administration, I also think Bush has done far more damage to this country than the terrorists could ever hope to accomplish.

Consider candidates from both sides of the isle, think for yourself, don't just mash the Republican button because you "despise Leftists".

27 Reading this I see exactly what's wrong with this country. While complaining about the particanship on the left I see the statement "I despise Leftists".

Start using your brains and thinking about what's best for the country as a whole. While I shudder to imagine how 9/11 would have been addressed by the Gore administration, I also think Bush has done far more damage to this country than the terrorists could ever hope to accomplish.

Afghanastan was the right thing to do but was crippled from the start due to poor planning. The Afghan effort was then further crippled with the foolish incursion into Iraq. Iraq was not part of the GWOT until we were there and seen as an occupying force. Bush has manage to distract us from the real GWOT while wrapping his policies in the cloak of the GWOT.

Consider candidates from both sides of the isle, think for yourself, don't just mash the Republican button because you "despise Leftists". Trust me, I certainly won't be support many Democrats.

28 Damn, sorry about the double (now triple) post.

29 "However, one has to wonder what the outcome to date would have been if Democratic politicians and their cohorts in the lobby groups and media outlets had not sought to undermine efforts at every opportunity, at home and abroad"

"Obviously you are the type of person who takes asprin to ward off the symptoms of Cancer until you are terminal."

"Well, if the Dems win back the White House in '08 they better start thinking of what they'd do different, because so far it's a complete mystery. They have no plan."

"Al Qaeda did this, but I would prefer to displace my anger onto the traditional object of my hatred, President Bush. And as a bonus, I will offer that if a genius such as myself were in charge, none of this would be happening."

"but guess what: there probably are no good plans out there for dealing with the fact that for somewhere between 10 and a hundred million Muslim men in this world, this video of the jumpers brings tears to their eyes. Tears of joy, that is."

And I get the empty rhetoric award, JC?

These, I guess you'd call them "retorts", have the vacuous ring of rhetoric: devoid of fact, rife with opinion based upon preconceivd political beliefs and agendas, and utterly without merit. What would have happend with a Democrat in charge? Well, one wasn't so why pose such rhetorical nonsense in response? Evidently to answer your own statements.

On the other hand, we DO know what has happened with a Bush in charge--notice how I do not use the word Republican or conservative because the man and his administration represent neither.

30 "Afghanastan was the right thing to do but was crippled from the start due to poor planning."

We went into Afghanistan to SUPPORT the Northern Alliance instead of going with the Vietnam and Iraq style occupation. Which in the eyes of every person who has any clue what they are talking about, is a much better option as it gives us legitimacy in the eyes of much of the country, keeping the fighting low scale and thus out of YOUR rants about too much death. Afghanistan is a support operation to wage a long term plan to effect their society, it is an attack upon a single symptom of the disease, and thus is not worth a Vietnam and Iraq style occupation when we have a much better chance by being their allies instead of their overlords.

"The Afghan effort was then further crippled with the foolish incursion into Iraq. Iraq was not part of the GWOT until we were there and seen as an occupying force. Bush has manage to distract us from the real GWOT while wrapping his policies in the cloak of the GWOT."

Afghanistan was but a symptom of a far larger disease. Treating symptoms is what morons do, treating the cause is what doctors do. We are being doctors and slowly trying to bring EFFECTIVE governments to an area that has never seen them. By bringing effective government, Democracy in the Mid East, we get the people there to TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN DAMN PROBLEMS. The war is fought by the people who know it best, stopping most major plots long before they can ever reach the attack phase, not to mention making terrorist sanctuaries and supply depots into terrorist hunting grounds.

As of yet, you and your entire party of finger pointers HAVE DONE NOTHING, NOT ONE SINGLE ALTERNATIVE PLAN. Trust me, WE HAVE/ARE/WILL BE LISTENING FOR ANOTHER PLAN. When you come up with one please tell us all, until then please think before opening your mouth.

Then again, knowing your party, this probably is your plan, do nothing. Appeasement and opening dialogue.

Go talk to Neville Chamberlain's ghost before you start trading away our allies.

31 Naieve, thank you, you just proved yet another point. Foaming at the mouth zealotry is too common.

I am NOT a Democrat. I care for them about as much as I do any politician in general.

I also have no trouble with war and understand it's consequences (death). I completely realize that war is sometimes the only way to fix a problem.

I would NEVER agree with appeasement. We should hunt down these animals and kill them. The problem is, we're not doing that. The Bush administration distracted us with Iraq and the foaming zealots happily followed along.

Please, I beg you, for the good of man kind, start thinking or stop talking.

32 "We should hunt down these animals and kill them."

The governments in the area will not help us, which makes this a military matter. Anyways, Al Qaeda is a SYMPTOM, as I said only morons concentrate solely on SYMPTOMS. If you do not treat the cause, it will KILL YOU.

"The problem is, we're not doing that."

We aren't? What planet are you on?

"The Bush administration distracted us with Iraq and the foaming zealots happily followed along."

Iraq is the beginning of the ONLY PLAN yet put forward that will realistically change the CAUSE of this war.

Keep ignoring the CAUSE, and keep telling everyone to fight only the SYMPTOMS.

33 "I also have no trouble with war and understand it's consequences (death). I completely realize that war is sometimes the only way to fix a problem."

So, since we have some form of help from Pakistan and Saudia Arabia, we should ignore Iraq and the help we get from the Pak's and Saudi's and declare war on them.

After all, Mushareff just decleared the Tribal Areas out of his control and said we cannot go in there.

Pakistan is one of the main problems in this war, do you advocate war with a nuclear power then?

PLEASE GIVE US A PLAN, NOT SOME EMPTY RHETORIC.

34 "I would NEVER agree with appeasement. We should hunt down these animals
and kill them. The problem is, we're not doing that. The Bush
administration distracted us with Iraq and the foaming zealots happily
followed along."

You decry foaming zealotry, and then go on to call Bush supporters and Iraq supporters "foaming zealots."

"Foaming at the mouth zealotry is too common.
"



People who live in glass houses....

35 Naieve, I do agree, we must treat the cause, not the symptoms. Afghanastan was about something else though. The stated purpose was to "get" Al Qaeda and to deny terrorists in general a base of operations. Only after the operation started did the "spreading democracy" rhetoric start. Rhetoric which I agree 100% with btw.

So, base on the purpose of our entry into Afghanastan, we effectively failed on both fronts. Bin Laden is still running around and the south of Afghanastan holds numerous Taliban training grounds. This is a job we need to complete.

As for Iraq, we're there and you know my thoughts on how we got there but, now we need to finish the job. Spreading democracy there would be a good idea. Having a friendly democracy would be even better. We're also failing on both points there.

The occupation there is causing the common people there to hate us. This is becoming more of a problem as time goes on. The democracy is being jeopardized by the sectarian violence and we're largely powerless to do anything about it.

Considering this, and what Iraq would become if we pulled out, we need more troops on the ground there, not less. An overwhelming force is what we needed in the first place and it's what we need now. It's not like we can make them hate us anymore now and at least with that approach we can show them far more progress much quicker.

It's clear we will not accomplish our goals if we "stay the course." This effort needs to be seriously re-evaluated. This administration is simply unwilling to do that.

Specific enough for you? Look, I hate empty rhetoric as much as you. Watching the speeches of Rumsfeld and Bush the last few weeks, that's all I'm seeing. Well, that and a poor grasp on world history.

It must be clear even to you that the current strategy is not working. Adjustments must be made with the goal of winning. Most Democrats (pull out ASAP) and most Republicans (do exactly what we're doing now) are not talking about positive changes in any direction.

36 Greyrooster's point is valid.

Naieve is a fool or a deceiver.  Showing a death doesn't show the killer.  These images are the effect, not the cause.  The Truthers know the effect, they claim a different cause.

37 Good Lt, I would agree with you however, I'm not advocating any particular position.

I'm advocating using your brain. I'm simply stating the obvious, our current strategy is flawed and it needs to be re-evaluated. The current administration has stated they're unwilling to do that.

The zealots I was referring to are ones that will never consider the possibility that the Bush administration is making serious mistakes. When I watch world events, I'm not thinking "oh, I really like him," I'm considering the implications and the alternatives.

As an example, I'm actually a big fan of Rumsfeld and his general demeanor. He's obviously a very intelligent man and I have great respect for him. He's my favorite individual in the administration and I think he's served the country honorably. He also needs to be replaced.

It doesn't matter what I think of him, it's for the good of the country. Even if it just comes down to national unity, it's worth it. There are other qualified people out there.

38 "Naieve, I do agree, we must treat the cause, not the symptoms. Afghanastan was about something else though. The stated purpose was to "get" Al Qaeda and to deny terrorists in general a base of operations. Only after the operation started did the "spreading democracy" rhetoric start. Rhetoric which I agree 100% with btw."

Wow, what a 180...

"So, base on the purpose of our entry into Afghanastan, we effectively failed on both fronts. Bin Laden is still running around and the south of Afghanastan holds numerous Taliban training grounds. This is a job we need to complete."

Yes we traded short term goals for long term benefits... Do you ever wonder what would have happened had we sent massive numbers of troops into Afghanistan like the Soviets did? How about if we just go into Pakistan into the off limit tribal areas and see what happens to Mushareff? After all that is where pretty much every expert thinks Bin Laden is. Is catching him worth a strong risk of nuclear war?

"As for Iraq, we're there and you know my thoughts on how we got there but, now we need to finish the job. Spreading democracy there would be a good idea. Having a friendly democracy would be even better. We're also failing on both points there."

We are 3 years in to a 20 or so year job, there is no shortcuts to building a nation.

"The occupation there is causing the common people there to hate us."

They already hate us, or didn't you notice?

"This is becoming more of a problem as time goes on. The democracy is being jeopardized by the sectarian violence and we're largely powerless to do anything about it."

Except build a government that will contain the problem.

"Considering this, and what Iraq would become if we pulled out, we need more troops on the ground there, not less. An overwhelming force is what we needed in the first place and it's what we need now. It's not like we can make them hate us anymore now and at least with that approach we can show them far more progress much quicker."

We need more Iraqi troops on the ground and we need thousands more advisers. This war can only be won by a strong Iraqi Government, us beating them down means nothing to them. Once we leave they will think they lost to us and not their government and the Sunni will try what they always try, etc...

"It's clear we will not accomplish our goals if we "stay the course." This effort needs to be seriously re-evaluated. This administration is simply unwilling to do that."

Why won't we accomplish it if we spend the next twenty years building up their forces? The only reason we won't finish it is because people like you spend the whole day Bush Bashin.

"Specific enough for you? Look, I hate empty rhetoric as much as you. Watching the speeches of Rumsfeld and Bush the last few weeks, that's all I'm seeing. Well, that and a poor grasp on world history."

How many times have I asked you FOR A WORKABLE PLAN NOW. You have nothing.

"It must be clear even to you that the current strategy is not working. Adjustments must be made with the goal of winning. Most Democrats (pull out ASAP) and most Republicans (do exactly what we're doing now) are not talking about positive changes in any direction."

This is a long term war, and people like you do not have the will to fight it. Changing a culture and installing an effective government takes decades.

Since you have no plan, all I can assume is that you think we should do nothing....

So when the next major attack happens, let's meet back here, and we will once again decide if doing nothing is worth thousands of lives, trillions of dollars of destruction and funds needed sent to security, and ignoring the problem until it becomes ten times as bad.

"I'm advocating using your brain. I'm simply stating the obvious, our current strategy is flawed and it needs to be re-evaluated. The current administration has stated they're unwilling to do that."

Once again, WHAT IS YOUR ALTERNATIVE PLAN BESIDES ATTACKING THE SYMPTOMS. YOU AGREE WE MUST ATTACK THE CAUSE BUT YOU DO NOT SAY HOW. PLEASE TELL US ALL AS WE REALLY WANT TO KNOW.

"The zealots I was referring to are ones that will never consider the possibility that the Bush administration is making serious mistakes. When I watch world events, I'm not thinking "oh, I really like him," I'm considering the implications and the alternatives."

WHAT ALTERNATIVES????

GIVE US ONE ALTERNATIVE TO FIGHT THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM!!!

"Naieve is a fool or a deceiver. Showing a death doesn't show the killer."

Yes, sure, why would we ever want to know how evil these people are. We can just ignore it and let the conspiracy nuts make up whatever they want.

Let me guess, there was no Holocaust and it was all an evil Jewish plot by the Elders of the Protocols of Zion....

39 Naieve firstly, you say "Yes, sure, why would we ever want to know how evil these people are."  It is the "these people" part that the Truthers question, and these images show nothing to identify.  Your failure to identify this indicates you are either a fool, or you're being paid to play one on the internet.

The GWOT, including Iraq, is one of constant change.  Adapt and overcome.  Spoofing and psy-ops are part of it, and the enemy's best source of intelligence is our media. They can't tell you the plan without telling the enemy the plan too. So you don't know the plan.  Know your role Jabroni.

40 Naieve, you keep demanding a workable alternative as if our current course is working just fine. You keep saying I have nothing however you have nothing but what's been spoon fed to you.

Nothing I said was a "180" from my earlier statements. That comment simply proves you have already decided what I think and are trying to force my actual statements into the shape of your preconceived notions. It's this kind of zealotry that is damaging our country. We need a calm, rational and informed debate, you do seem informed so one out of three ain't bad, just work on the other two.

"The only reason we won't finish it is because people like you spend the whole day Bush Bashin."

This is obviously false based simply on my own words above. Yes, I have problems with Bush but I back it up with reasons. I don't blindly follow anyone, which is a whole lot more than I can say about others.

"people like you do not have the will to fight it"

Again with the over reaching generalizations when you have no clue who you're talking to. One more time for the "special" ones in the crowd: I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE FIGHT, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HOW IT'S BEING FOUGHT.

I've basically been saying "fine, we're there, we're stuck, let's win it". The current approach is not working. The "alternative" you keep screaming about is to simply re-evaluate what we're doing and make serious changes. For probably the dozenth or so time, I'm not arguing to cut this short, I simply want us to win. We're certainly not on a winning path right now.

Also, I find the statement "We are 3 years in to a 20 or so year job, there is no shortcuts to building a nation." very interesting. Originally the Iraq war was sold as something we'd get in and out very quickly, a matter of a few years. No where near twenty. Everyone with half a brain knew that wasn't the case of course. You don't have a problem with your elected officials lying to you?

41 Uhmmm... my bad on the plan thing Naieve.  I misread your last post, as to who was quoting who.  It is I that is the Jabroni.

oops.

42 I'll tell you what the plan of the Democrats is. They have made no secret of it. The first step is to set a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, also to tamp down the action in Afghanistan by withdrawing from the border area with Pakistan, and seeking to engage the Islamists in a series of negociated settlements. As a matter of fact, OBL has offered a hudna. This would fit very well into the Democratic plan to withdraw from the area and disengage the terrorists. The terrorists have offered a truce, so this in itself is evidence of great harm being done to them and their networks. It is doubtful whether a truce would stop the Islamic planning for the Caliphate or grand Islamic state they so desire in order to dominate the World for Islam. The Democratic plan would allow a temporary respite from the attacks of the terrorists, but would result in us or our children having to handle the problem from a relative position of weakness. You see, the problem of Islamism will have to be confronted, either now or in the future. Now we are in a relative position of strength, later the Islamists will be in a much better position, or that is how I see it.

43 jesusland joe is absolutely right on their plan for Iraq, unfortunately.

As for Afghanastan and the negotiation stuff, do you have any links backing that up? I find that incredibly hard to believe. It would be about the worst approach to the situation possible and I can't believe that anyone of any importance in the US thinks that's the correct approach.

I'm sure you can find some random nutjob leftwing commentators talking about this but I would like to see quotes from a Democratic legislator suggesting negotiating with Al Qaeda.

44 To all: Show me pictures of the killers being killed and I will watch. With beer and popcorn. I do not watch innocent people squashing themselves on pavement to avoid the pain of fire.
Nor do I watch the beheading videos. If that's your bag. I know many creeps do. I question the mentality of anyone getting their rocks off watching a poor soul having his throat cut and bleeding to death.
I have nothing against killing. I have killed before. But I can't say it was worth watching time after time.

Naieve: I concur with your statement " Iraq is the beginning of the ONLY PLAN yet put forward to change the cause of this war" It hits the nail on the head. The left continually berates our government (something lefturds don't realize) but offers nothing as a alternative but surrender in one way or the other.

Naieve, Rich, welcome to the blog. You are both needed. Do not let the posters ruin your enthusiasm.
Advocating the Good Lt use his brain. Ha, Ha. Thats a bigger task than the war in Iraq.

45 grinnel, go reread your original post.

This film is a close-up of tragedy.

Wow. What trenchant insight. These seven paltry words are all you can devote to the rather compelling video of innocent American caught in an inferno and deciding that jumping to their deaths from the 87th floor is the less painful course of action before you switch the subject to what you really would rather talk about -- how awful Bush is, and on this subject you go on at much greater length without links or facts, but rather with gauzy dreams of how much better things would be under President Josiah Bartlett. The subject of the post was the video. You had nothing to offer on that subject but to use it as a springboard to jump into another topic that you like better. That you did this, my friend, is a fact. Next time if you want to fool more people, offer at least as many words on the topic at hand as the one you would prefer to expound upon.

You offer fantastic rhetoric about how swimmingly things would be going in the alternate universe that you constructed for yourself where Al Qaeda would be practically all rolled up by now, and when others critique your fantasy world where Bush is not President, you say, "Hey, why are you guys talking about a theoretical Democrat President when Bush is President right now?" Well, you brought it up! Amazing! You changed the subject of your change-of-subject!

And also in that post, you offer no provable assertions, and then criticize the "retorts" for not addressing the facts of your fact free post. Again, amazing!

46 Rich, I did not mean to suggest direct negociations, but those along the lines of what we just saw in Pakistan where the government there ceded control of the Waristan regions to Al-Queda and its supporters, including OBL. There is no doubt in my mind that OBL is holed up there. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that Bush could do the same thing if the pressure from his Party becomes too great, especially if the Democrats take control of the House, and even more of a possibility if the Republicans lose both the House and Senate. I am basing my conclusions on what I believe has been inferred by certain key Democrats, not a specific plan. This is my belief, nothing is written in concrete, but again, it is along the lines of what the Islamists have offered, and what the Europeans would support as well. Just my thoughts.

47 "Show me pictures of the killers being killed and I will watch. With beer and popcorn. I do not watch innocent people squashing themselves on pavement to avoid the pain of fire.
Nor do I watch the beheading videos. If that's your bag. I know many creeps do. I question the mentality of anyone getting their rocks off watching a poor soul having his throat cut and bleeding to death."

Not to watch this will build a barrier between us and reality and subconciously we will say, "Hey, that all happened to someone else, why sould I care? It'll never happen to me." We must associate ourselves with the victims, they are the reason we fight, so it never happens again.

I don't really want to watch terrorists dying, the fact they died is enough for me, if I could do it myself I would gladly spare others the nightmares, with my back I cannot fight this war as I would wish and am relegated to trying to explain why we fight. I think we have a duty to those they kill to remember what their last seconds were like, so we never forget why we are fighting this war. Without our support the Military cannot win this war.

"We're certainly not on a winning path right now."

And the winning path is what?

48 Rich,
I see what you are saying now.
What I am saying is that there is no easy or good way to fight this war. Iraq is exaclty how this thing will have to be fought, spending 15 + years building strong working governments in every nation that is our enemy is as of yet the only plan. We should not look at Iraq and wonder why it is so bad, relatively speaking Iraq is a low scale conflict that is being massively publicized to the point that people are starting to realize how ugly war is, yes war sucks, it always has and always will, that is why you don't go to war unless you have to. We all realized yes we had to go to war, now its here. We should be looking at Iraq and wondering why we wasted so much money and how we can do better on the next country on the list while instituting those changes in Iraq(like the woefully undermanned advisers and massively wasted funds). There are thousands of years of problems to work through in that area, even after we leave we will spend centuries riding herd on those nations to keep them going the right direction. Iraq was the most likely target to start at when the plan to bring effective government to the Mid East became the plan, the diplomatic way was obviously not going to work with Saddam like it did in Afghanistan so we went to the war option, like we will probably have to do in Iran, Syria, and Pakistan after all diplomatic routes are closed. In fact when you look at places like Pakistan and Iran, you realize we started off with the easy guy first. Things will get much much worse before they get better.

Either that or we wait and see what happens as Iran and Israel get into a Cuban Missile Crisis. Or sit and hope the terrorists aren't given a nuke. Imagine some of that Niger yellowcake being processed by the same method used by NK, Pak, and Iran, all of who will willingly trade that information to other muslims as they have oft repeated, we would have a fun time trying to figure out who to nuke as teh list of suspects grows, or whether to nuke them all which our morality will not let us do.

49 Naieve: Judging how others feel to the same stimuli is a mistake. I don't need to see a person die by fire to understand what it must feel like. If you need to watch death videos over and over to be reminded of 9/11, so be it. I don't and I won't forget because of it. But to each his own.
Your assessment of the future in the middle east is plausible. However, this nation will not spend 15 years over there. My solution. Islam needs a lesson. A lesson that will show them the west will not stand for this crap.
You will not terrorize us, threaten us, make hostages of us or kill us. My suggestion? Make Iran drop to its knees and beg us to stop. They can change their behavior or die.
Peace never follows talk and agreements.
Peace follows complete and utter victory. Example: Germany, Japan, Italy, Turkey. Now nations we are at peace with.
Another example. North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Iraq. Countries we didn't stomp into submission when we should have. Nothing but trouble.

50 Would we be in this middle east mess today had we taken care of Iran when they took the embassy hostages? We should have stomped them into submission then.
BUT A COWARDLY DEMOCRAT WAS IN CHARGE. So a Republican must take the heat for doing his job years later.

51 "What I am saying is that there is no easy or good way to fight this war."

Agreed.

"Iraq is exaclty how this thing will have to be fought, spending 15 + years building strong working governments in every nation that is our enemy is as of yet the only plan."

At the most basic level, I agree. It's the actual implementation in Iraq now that's the problem.

"We should not look at Iraq and wonder why it is so bad, relatively speaking Iraq is a low scale conflict that is being massively publicized to the point that people are starting to realize how ugly war is, yes war sucks, it always has and always will, that is why you don't go to war unless you have to."

I do agree with this as well. The media in generally heavily publicizes every little thing and provides absolutely no context. This applies in areas where I imagine you'd rather it not apply as well though. For example I wish the media in general would explain the historical flaws and inaccuracies of Rumsfeld's and Bush's recent speeches but, I'm getting off topic (yes, those speeches really irritated me, I don't like being compared to Nazi sympathyzers)

"We all realized yes we had to go to war, now its here. We should be looking at Iraq and wondering why we wasted so much money and how we can do better on the next country on the list while instituting those changes in Iraq(like the woefully undermanned advisers and massively wasted funds)."

I agree 100%. That is my problem with the current administration. They have expressed a complete unwillingness to evaluate any portion of the effort and make changes in response. Even what you just said contradicts the statements of the administration and that's not a good thing. These things should be occuring in their heads too.

"There are thousands of years of problems to work through in that area, even after we leave we will spend centuries riding herd on those nations to keep them going the right direction. Iraq was the most likely target to start at when the plan to bring effective government to the Mid East became the plan, the diplomatic way was obviously not going to work with Saddam like it did in Afghanistan so we went to the war option, like we will probably have to do in Iran, Syria, and Pakistan after all diplomatic routes are closed. In fact when you look at places like Pakistan and Iran, you realize we started off with the easy guy first. Things will get much much worse before they get better. "

This is essentially what I've been saying for years (obviously not on this site). We went for Iraq because it was low hanging fruit and had little to nothing to do with WMDs. Again, I agree with the concept but I hope the strategy is findamentally changed.

Yes, there's serious problems in that region and this administration has had some valid ideas on how to address it but, what we need is a group of people that are open to other ideas. This whole condescending approach of the administration is insulting to the American people.

The current approach in Iraq may bear fruit in a hundred years or so (once the current and next generations of Muslims die off) but, we and our children need to live in the world now. The approach needs to be tempered so as not to create more terrorists now.

I am not talking about appeasement. I'm concerned entirely about innocent Iraqi civilians. With our approach today we're causing them and their children to hate us and contrary to what seems to be popular opinion here, they all do not already hate us. If at the same time as aggressively pursuing the terrorists we could manage to cultivate some good will imagine how much easier our job can be. This could even be something as simple as a few more weeks of cultural training for the troops and slight modifications to the rules of engagement (yes, I understand you need to assume anyone there could be a terrorist, this of course should be kept in mind in any changes).

My whole problem, and why I come off as a simple "Bush Basher," is that the administration is unwilling to do any of these things. Bush has said, as recently as a couple weeks ago, he wouldn't change a thing if he could go back and do it over. That's just wrong. A truly great man is capable of learning from his mistakes and I don't think anyone here would argue that his administration has made ZERO mistakes.

52 Never forget, never forgive.

I still cant work out why the U.S. was so restrained in its
reaction to the horrific, cowardly acts of that nightmarish
day, especially compared to Pearl harbour.
America should have declared all out world war on Islam,
and every decent, democratic nation in the world should have got right behind it! I fear that until we do this, we
will never get on top of this whole problem.
On this day especially, we are all Americans.

53 I pray that on this day more than any other, all muslims who harbor hatred in their hearts for any person who may disagree, spends 24 hours with an intense feeling of fear of everything around them. For until that happens they will not understand the depth of trouble they currently find themselves in.
 
BTW, they better hope Newt doesn't get elected. If you want to win this war, open your mind to Newt. He understands the threat, and also is a believer in history repeating itself.

54 I'm with Aussie Jeff. Rich. You care too much about people that ALREADY hate you and wish to kill you. Takes a major shock to bring them back to reality. The reality is we will kill you back. If you attack us or allow your people to attack us we will hurt you. We will hurt you real bad.
We will not consider your innocents any more than Islamics consider our innocents. The problem is liberal thinking has prohibited us from striking back with the fervor we have in the past.
Islamic nations have allowed the terrorists to attack the west. They should pay for what they spawned.
When Islamics riot and kill in countries like England their entire neighborhoods should be bulldozed and the people repatriated back to the middle east.
Try this approach and the terror will end.

55 I honestly don't care about people that already hate us. It's unfortunate but what's done is done and your approach there is appropriate.

However, just as it's largely our lunatics here that get on the news, the same goes for over there. By all accounts the majority does not hate us. Ignoring the inevitable argument over this point, I'm curious.

If the majority of Muslims do not hate us, would that change your thinking at all?

56 I would answer the majority of people in prison for murder do not hate me. Yet, I say leave them there.
I doubt if the majority of people in Japan or Germany hated me. Yet, we bombed them into submission. As it turned out, it was the correct thing to do. No more war. No more gas chambers, no more rockets over England, freedom for the people of Europe and even more important. Peace and prosperity for the people who received our bombs.
As before. History has taught peace comes after unconditional surrender.
Who are these 10s of thousands of people that take to the streets whenever some of us are killed? The ones who don't hate us? Are you listening to Al Jazeera or MSN?
Anyway keep up the good work. You and Caspera are most refreshing. Good to have constructive thought on opposite ends.

57 I see you don't sleep either. I do 4 hours per day. 2 hrs at a time.

58 The people in prison are criminals, they belong there no matter who they hate. So that's kinda a false analogy.

It's funny, I agree completely with the "unconditional surrender" idea. I'm in the school of thought that thinks using the nukes in WWII saved innumerable lives. I however disagree in how you get there with the Muslim terrorists.

Although it seems to be a popular position here, you just can't go and declare war on an entire religion. Especially not one that is second only to Christianity (in population).

What is needed here is measured annihilation. Identify large targets but, quite a bit more specific than "Islam," and go after them viciously. The operation in Iraq to retake a large city northwest of Baghdad (whose name escapes me now) is a great example of that. While it was criticized heavily in the press the results can't be argued with.

Yes, tens of thousands do take to the streets to celebrate our deaths. Tens of thousands are not a majority amongst millions. Like I said, the vocal lunatic fringe always gets the most air time.

Btw, if anyone would like to drop a MOAB on one of those celebrations, you'll hear no complaints from me.

Also, thank you for the welcome. It's interesting that everyone here sees me coming from the liberal side. On liberal sites they see me as a loony conservative. I'm not from any particular side in politics. I just look at things and come to my own conclusions. I'll show you just how jumbled my political stances are:

- I was and still am for the Afghan and Iraq wars. I just disagree (strongly) on the details.
- I'd vote for McCain in a heart beat (I'm not real sure if he's popular here though) but hell would freeze over before I'd vote for Hillary (or any Democrat that seems to be out there right now for that matter).
- While I had high hopes for them (especially after 9/11) I think the Bush administration has been the most damaging presidential administration to the foundations of our country.

There's a lot more but, I like to maintain some mystery =)

And no, I don't sleep much.

59 I seen these clips a few months back, very dramatic to watch. Poor people.

Keeps you focused!

60 One thing this did. It made me and many other normal everyday people hate islam like only a Moslem can hate.
Islam, Moslem and Hate those words go together.

61 Falluja. The city was Falluja.
 
I say we take Saudi Arabia first. We will hold Mecca and Medina hostage, and force the muslims to sign a pact forcing all muslim nations to disarm. If they refuse we take their lump of space rock and put it on display at Ground zero.

62 Rich: False analogy? Terrorists and their supporters are not criminals. Anyone who applaudes indescriminate murder is a criminal. Those dancing in the streets to murder are criminals. Those who know the terrorists and don't turn them in are criminals. Anyone who supports terrorism in any way, shape or form is a criminal. We obviously have different opinions on what a criminal is.
"You cannot declare war on a religion" Have you lost it. Islam has declared war on us years ago. Who is raising the terrorists? The Hindus?
Quit doing the liberal thing and equating what I said to include all Islam. I said stomp Iran into the ground until they beg for mercy. Not all of Islam. This will serve two purposes. (1) Get rid of the biggest pain in the ass in the world. (2) Show Islam that they may not continue with their stupid Jihads, threats, murders, hostages taking and any other bullshit they are presently taking part in.
The threat of remember what happened to Iran will be understood by backward shits who understand nothing else.
Of course, if it don't work. I am not against ridding the world of the biggest threat to world peace. Islam.
A gutter religion that I believe should be outlawed.
Bush Admin damaging? What would you have done? More talk. I know what I would do tomorrow if I were king.

63 greyrooster: I referenced Muslims as a whole. You then compared that to the prison population. It's a false analogy because not all Muslims are criminals. Our definitions of what a criminal is don't differ though. "Anyone who supports terrorism in any way, shape or form is a criminal." is a statement I'd make myself.

As for declaring war on a religion, let me rephrase it. We (as in the US) should not declare war on a religion. Yes, fanatical muslims declared war on all non-muslims years ago. We must not follow the same path as them, no matter how tempting it may be.

Also, I honestly thought you were talking about all Islam. I wasn't doing any "liberal" thing, it was just a mistake, sorry about that.

As for Iran, absolutely, pound them into submission, this brinkmanship is getting old. Personally I've always thought Iran was a bigger threat than Iraq and should have been dealt with prior to Iraq.

"I am not against ridding the world of the biggest threat to world peace. Islam. A gutter religion that I believe should be outlawed."

It's this kind of talk that's truly disturbing though. As long as this attitude is common the GWOT will never end. Both sides are advocating the total destruction of the opposing side's religion. When it comes to their religion people are fiercely protective. Obviously this results in a self feeding cycle.

As for why I think the Bush admin is damaging, I doubt you want to get into that. It touches on many topics other than the GWOT, a few of which I consider far more important.

64 This joke of an administration or any other fool who thought we could go up against mosquitos with an elephant gun never learned any lessons at all from Vietnam, Somalia or whereever we have tucked our tails and cut and run. We find out again and again that the people we try to help love nothing more than dragging our smoking corpses through the streets. A more long-range defensive approach such as blockades and bombing any threats that crop up, and last but not least border security would have been the order of the day if I were president! Off to the left of this page it says remember 9/11 and never forget there are people out there who want to kill us. Now, because of the mishandling, I fear there are many, many more who want to kill us than before. And I, like greyrooster have no inclination to watch any de-capitating videos or desperate people jumping to their deaths. I, like greyrooster will enjoy beer and popcorn if it a jihadist who is featured in the snuff film. 

65 I agree that these photos do not need to be posted everyday to be reminded of what happened. I remember every moment from that day. I remember when Fox news showed a man falling on tv live as he was actually falling. I must admit that watching this clip made me sick. More so than the Eugene Armstrong clip. What is really sad is that Islam is to be treated with kid gloves in this country. We are suppose to be apologetic to muslims as if it our fault that 9/11 happened. Sure, islam is a very misunderstood religion that gets its basic doctrine from Jewish and Christian beliefs, but it teaches hate and death, and I am suppose to be tolarent of that? War in the middle east should have taken place decades ago. You dont what until roaches overtake your home, you exterminate them early and at the root. And the name Hillary08 is just to get your attention. if she wins the election im moving to Mexico. All the Mexicans are gone, they live here now!

66 I agree that these photos do not need to be posted everyday to be reminded of what happened. I remember every moment from that day. I remember when Fox news showed a man falling on tv live as he was actually falling. I must admit that watching this clip made me sick. More so than the Eugene Armstrong clip. What is really sad is that Islam is to be treated with kid gloves in this country. We are suppose to be apologetic to muslims as if it our fault that 9/11 happened. Sure, islam is a very misunderstood religion that gets its basic doctrine from Jewish and Christian beliefs, but it teaches hate and death, and I am suppose to be tolarent of that? War in the middle east should have taken place decades ago. You dont what until roaches overtake your home, you exterminate them early and at the root. And the name Hillary08 is just to get your attention. if she wins the election im moving to Mexico. All the Mexicans are gone, they live here now!

67 Rich: You give our enemies a big advantage when you separate good muslims from bad muslims. The Islamic enemy doesn't do the same. All Americans are bad. Period. They do not separate you from me when they bomb.
Islam should police Islam. If they don't (and they haven't)then it isn't worth saving. Outlaw Islam.

Your earlier comment on only tens of thousands in the streets to celebrate dead Americans. There was not 100s of thousands because the streets are not big enough. It takes space for diaper heads to dance in celebration of 3000 innocent deaths.

68 greyrooster, again, I agree, the enemy doesn't do what I expect us to do. I do not want us to be the same as them. We are different. We are better than them. We can fight a war on our own terms, we've proved it before. Outlawing Christianity and other faiths is just what they want to do (and have done in Afghanastan), outlawing Islam would be no different.

As for the "tens of thousands," yeah, I know it would be a multiple of that in most any major mid-east city. I said "tens of thousands" because whoever I was responding to said it.

69 In response to Rich's statement about fighting this war on our terms is why we are at a stand still in this war. This is anything but a traditional war. Far from the jungles of Vietnam, and centuries from the battlefields of WWII. This war is in OUR backyards. Mark my words, it is only a matter of time when right wing groups in th U.S. such as the KKK, the Arian Nation, the Michigan Militias join forces with terrorists groups for one common goal..., to destroy the American government and the American way of life. You may say this will never happen because the terrorists hate the so called Christian doctrine the KKK proclaims. The KKK and the Neo Nazis are so called brothers and the Nazis hate Christianity. Not so you say, read Some of Hitler's memoirs. The Nazi party was founded on Buddist beliefs. So yes it is so. Because Bin-Laden knows the best way to infiltrait this country is with her own people. We got to start given these rag heads more credit. If we don't we will all be proclaiming Allah!!!

70 Don't think it is edifying to watch snuff film. Not pleasing to God. An old girlfriend of mine had a scar on her knee. When I asked how she got it she said as a child she was running to go see a dead man the neighborhood kids had discovered. She tripped and cut her knee bad on a rock. Good way to pick up a curse. Forward to the future. There was a cab driver who went down an imbankment and was killed when he hit a building down below. Out of morbid curiousity I walked the path the cab had taken down the embankment, imagining what it must have been like careening down the sharp incline, glancing off a tree and then hitting the building. Somehow I felt unclean afterwards, like I had picked up a curse. AWord to the wise!

71 Hillary 08, your statement is a little frustrating to see. It's due to total and complete incompetence in fighting this war that we're at a standstill not a moral crisis.

Our military is poorly equiped and trained to fight this kind of war due to both political parties and they've had their hands tied behind their back by the current civilian pentagon leadership.

I agree that this is nothing like any war we've fought previously but, if we give up what it is that makes us superior to them, what makes us American, we might as well surrender because we've lost anyway.