December 15, 2005

Crime & Punishment

The other day, I asked my readers to share their views on the death penalty and why they believed what they believed. It is no surprise that most of the answers are divided down party lines with the more liberal readers being against the death penalty and the more conservative ones for. Even if it doesn't drive elections, this is probably one of the most contentious issues before us today. Most of the contention comes from the fact that there is no real factual basis for belief either way. There is nothing to point to on your side to say "I'm definately right and you're definately wrong." And when we try to assign factual basis to our arguments, then we sometimes end up a lot further off base than we'd like. For example: some conservatives argue that the death penalty is necessary because it costs too much to feed and house a criminal for the rest of his life. Personally, the idea of putting a dollar value on a human life, even the life of a serial killer, bothers me. If we allow it to be done in the case of a criminal, how long will it take to do it in other cases too? How long will it take to determine that keeping grandma alive simply costs too much? We're already headed in that direction due to other arguments and I'd like to aviod it as much as possible.

In order to understand the death penalty, we must understand the reasons behind the death penalty. And in order to understand that, we must first understand the proper reason for crime and punishment to begin with. Most people in the US believe that jail is (or should be) for the purpose of rehabilitation. Thus, we have introduced numerous social programs, projects and experiments aimed at turning the criminal into a useful member of society. This process fails for a number of reasons.

For the most part, a criminal has already been taught (or has been born with) a certain mindset. This mindset can be caused by any number of factors, but the largest factor is simply not being taught any differently at home. Does that mean that someone who grows up in a good home with loving parents and is taught right from wrong will never do anything bad? No, but the odds of them becoming a career criminal are far smaller than someone who grows up in a single parent home or with parents who disregard him and is not taught right from wrong.

A child, growing up and being taught, will absorb just about anything you give him at the time. They are constantly learning and emulating everything that they see and hear. They are eager to learn. However, once a person gets out of that child stage, learning becomes a matter of choice. They will not learn anything that they don't wish to learn. And when a person is being punished, they are nowhere near as likely to want to learn. So, when rehabilitation is combined with punishment, the likelihood of its success is dropped dramatically.

In order to simplify matters, I equate the treatment of criminals to raising children. In both cases, they need constant reminders of what is acceptable and what is not. And when they know the rules and break them intentionally, then they are swiftly punished for that violation. The punishment has nothing to do with rehabilitation and is used simply to make them scared enough of the punishment that they do not wish to repeat it.

Of course, this assumes that all criminals have "normal" minds. There will always be serial criminals or people who commit crimes of such horrific proportion that they must be treated differently. When such a person is identified, it is obvious that they it will never be safe to allow them to interact with other people. No amount of rehabilitation will change them and no social program will "reeducate" them. For this type of person, there are only two solutions. Leave them in jail for the rest of their natural lives or kill them. I propose that if this is the choice, it is more humane to kill someone rather than keep them locked up for the rest of their lives with no chance of ever seeing the outside again.

It has been suggested that if we are to supply such a horrific choice, the criminal himself should be given the choice to either live in prison or die. I'm afraid, though, that this approach would open the door to cries of "state assisted suicide." And that would be a reasonable claim. It would be somewhat of a catch-22 if someone knew that just by committing a horrendous crime that they would be allowed to die and they wouldn't have to do anything themselves. Would we still be able to put that person to death? Of course it's possible for that to happen even now, but the odds are much smaller when the decision is in the hands of a judge and jury.

Although our current death penalty system is not perfect, I haven't been presented with any reason yet to do away with it. In a just system, some people simply cannot be allowed to live. It's not pretty, it's certainly not nice, but it's the truth.

Posted by: Drew at 11:12 AM | Comments (41) | Add Comment
Post contains 894 words, total size 5 kb.

1 halo ça va bien moi ça va bizo bye je t'aime

Posted by: ilysa at December 15, 2005 11:17 AM (Fp0l0)

2 I don't believe that a majority of Americans believe the 'purpose' of incarceration is for the rehabilitation of criminals. It may be the majority of liberal Americans' belief, but prior to the mid-20th century, the purpose of incarceration was to remove the criminal from normal society.

I am for the death penalty for one reason: a dead murderer, rapist or child molester can not re-offend.

Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 11:40 AM (x0fj6)

3 Gotta love how Libs are against the death penalty, but are for abortion.

Posted by: Ariya at December 15, 2005 11:41 AM (+sjRV)

4 Libs, how bout instead you rehabilitate some of those unborn babies you like to kill so much.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 12:14 PM (8e/V4)

5 I think deterrence of third parties is a much more important function of our prison system than rehabilitation or deterrence of the actual criminal being sentenced. Sending a crook away to prison for their crimes probably won't change that person -- most likely he/she will spend their time in jail thinking about how they got caught and figuring out to get away with their crimes when released -- but it has a much greater chance of convincing those who have yet to commit certain crimes from doing so.

In that regard, I really don't know how effective capital punishment (as opposed to life without possibility of parole) really is, and that is part of the reason I am conflicted about capital punishment.

Posted by: Sean P at December 15, 2005 12:41 PM (DEeWo)

6 The retributive theory of justice trumps the rehabilitative or deterrent. We could keep offenders in jail indeterminately until they were cured or to ensure that they don't reoffend and serve as an example to other potential offenders...but we don't. Why? 'Cause the punishment, say twenty years or until 'cured' or chopping off a hand to deter the offender and others would be beyond the 'just desserts' for shoplifting, no matter how incurable the shoplifter was or how often he offended. However, retribution (or the theory of 'just desserts') doesn't only limit penalties, it also helps set them. And it supports the death penalty in cases that warrant it.

One additional thought: the punishment imposed is a measure of the seriousness of the crime. Lesser punishments devalue life by making the price of murder less dear.

Posted by: slickdpdx at December 15, 2005 12:50 PM (MjGRu)

7 The death penalty has an effective rate of 100%.

100% of those put to death have never committed another crime.

Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 12:51 PM (x0fj6)

8 I know Tookie! And Tookie says ....
....

Posted by: hondo at December 15, 2005 12:53 PM (3aakz)

9 Tookie says you commit murder, you die.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 01:04 PM (8e/V4)

10 The rehabilitation aspect of prison depends on the types of crime we are talking about. Incredibly important for smaller crimes, useful in drug related offenses, marginal in violent crime (more important in cases of manslaughter than murder).

As far as the death penalty goes, I for one think it is a hold over from a time when revenge/retribution were often mistaken for justice. Sure it's constitutional, so long as there is due process, but as a matter of policy, I find it's practice, um, questionable.

Posted by: KG at December 15, 2005 01:10 PM (eRMCR)

11 The US process is too long and drawn out, giving rise to liberal protest. I admire the US but think that lawyers etc get in the way of swift justice. Having said that...at least you have the death penalty.

There is no point in keeping certain subhumans alive at the expense of the state......that reminds me, where's Agent Smith?

Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 01:27 PM (wBDaS)

12 I am a liberal who is for the death penalty (we actually don't use it enough), will you accept me on this site?

Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 02:19 PM (b2hs0)

13 J-man,

so long as you try to make semi-intelligent comments that we can amuse ourselves shooting down ;-)

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 02:27 PM (8e/V4)

14 Hell, I didn't know you had to ask to be on here. I thought people just blurted out stuff and waited to see what happened.

The liberals on this site make it fun (most of the time), as opposing views spark healthy debate....even though the right is always right.

Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 02:34 PM (wBDaS)

15 I think Jester has the general idea there.

Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 02:36 PM (D3+20)

16 I have no problem with the death penalty applied to actual criminals who have killed and deserve it. I have a big problem with the death penalty applied to people who turn out to be entirely innocent.

Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 02:38 PM (FVbj6)

17 IO makes a good point. I don't have a problem with the death penalty in the abstract, but people can make a legitimate argument against it as it's applied.

And no, I don't consider objections to it based on "race" to be legitimate. Poverty, yes. Race, no.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 02:42 PM (8e/V4)

18 No execution system is perfect, you're bound to knock off an "innocent" or 2 while killing the worst members of society. You just have to accept it and hope you are not one of them.

Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 02:48 PM (b2hs0)

19 Execute only those caught red-handed. Better to err on the side of caution.

But what crimes deserve the death penaly? I say limit it to murder.

Posted by: youngbourbonprofessional at December 15, 2005 03:08 PM (tdhAh)

20 And all this time I thought the American justice system was designed to prevent the punishment of the innocent. Boy, was I wrong!

Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 03:09 PM (FVbj6)

21 IO,

then logically you're against the entire penal system as well, because I'm willing to bet there's more innocent people rotting in jail than dying in the gas chamber.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 03:14 PM (8e/V4)

22 Murderers, rapists, and child molesters should all be put to death.

Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 03:24 PM (b2hs0)

23 I am going to go out on a limb and state that the judicial system bends over backwards in an attempt to keep innocents from succumbing to the death penalty.

I wonder, what is the probability of an innocent being put to death? What is the probability that a violent offender will commit another violent crime? Of course, in the effort to compute these probabilities, one would have to take into account the 15+ years the accussed is behind bars.

As regard to what to limit the death penalty to, I agree with J-Man, as I posted early, with one caveat: violent rape as oppossed to the "I-got-drunk-and-realized-I-slept-with-the-dork-from-physics101-better-say-it-was-date-rape" rape.

Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 03:43 PM (x0fj6)

24 There's plenty of innocent people in prison, and there's plenty more who just SAY they're innocent. It's usually easy enough to tell the difference, once you dig deep enough into the case, get some DNA testing done, etc. Two men in Virginia who spent years in prison were exonerated today by DNA evidence, and the governor plans to pardon them.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the organizations which get involved with cases like this are almost always liberal biased. Defending the innocent doesn't seem like it should be a partisan issue. If it were, the military would be full of Democrats.

Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 04:07 PM (FVbj6)

25 The very moment an individual or a society declines to punish criminals is the moment that individual or society loses its right to survive. The allowance of murderers to live is something that even the most backward of savages will not consider for one minute, yet many among us, we who call ourselves civilized, think that the wrongful taking of the life of an innocent must be excused at all costs, even at the cost of more innocent lives. Liberalism is the belief that it's better to have murderers and rapists of children running free, murdering and raping, than to punish them in any way.

All liberals should be killed for the good of humanity, because they are just to stupid to be allowed to further pollute the gene pool.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 04:19 PM (0yYS2)

26 Too stupid. Dammit.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 04:24 PM (0yYS2)

27 Good point IM...it is not just about a deterrent but about keeping everyone else safe.

We are quick to eliminate any other threat to human life so what makes a killer different from a deadly virus or rabid dog? I would ask any liberal to imagine having a close loved one murdered and then to honestly ask whether the killer deserves to live.

Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 04:42 PM (wBDaS)

28 I think it's about sending a message-- that murder is the ultimate crime and merits the ultimate punishment. The punishment says something about the evil of taking innocent life.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 06:26 PM (8e/V4)

29 I am in general favor of the DP and have witnessed an execution. I'll not go into the execution here (in a previous comment I did and if you mosey on over to my blog and dig around a bit you will find the account of it).

It is good the conversation is sober for it is a very sober topic. I don't think all murders warrant the DP but some do. Generally those with a long history of crime and murder or those who murder with calculation (e.g. the hitman or insurance scammer) should be strong candidates for the death penalty. The man who kills the guy banging his wife but otherwise has no more than a few speeding tickets in his past should do the time we normally dole out for murder.

The problem with saying life means life is that life means life does not always mean life or at least does not mean he will not kill again. Pardons are possible (though I admit serious murderers are never high on any governor's list). Also, the Amnesty Intl crowd is starting to agitate against life sentences (yet another activist groups don't go away after success they just change definitions to keep their mission alive). One last thing what makes it impossible to murder in prison? Nothing.

Posted by: Marcus Aurelius at December 15, 2005 06:39 PM (A31HM)

30 1st degree murder ? 2nd degree murder? Execution puts our country in with a group that I for one would not wish to be included into. The top 5 in numbers of executions over 1999-2003 #1 China 6700 #2 Iran 804 #3 Saudi Arabia 403 #4 USA 385 #5 Dem. Rep. of Congo. The USA kills about 100 a year. How much of a difference does that make to anything. If it stopped would our society fail ?

Posted by: john Ryan at December 15, 2005 06:53 PM (ads7K)

31 Damn John, you have a way of being dense. Maybe you should rent out your head for nuclear shielding or something. Or maybe it's just the tinfoil.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 09:09 PM (0yYS2)

32 First we pay for their lawlessness. Then some innocent pays with his/her life. Then we pay for his legal expenses. Then we pay for his room and board for the next 50 years. BULLSHIT!
Keeping killer criminals alive places an undue burden on the taxpapers, the victims families and the KILLERS families.
In fact, keeping them alive for 25 years before executioning them is bullshit. Punishment 25 years after a crime means nothing.
Execute them. Quickly. Why should a killer, convicted by a jury of his peers and upheld by the appeals process live 20 years longer than his victims?

Posted by: greyrooster at December 16, 2005 06:58 AM (kkjRj)

33 I'm a very cautious supporter of capital punishment. I believe that the execution of Tookie was correct and just. There are rare cases where it is.

But with science progressing at the rate it is, DNA evidence and other forensic evidence, we are less and less apt to err. Now the actual process of the trials is another issue and that, I believe, is where we fail.

There are not many, but a few unscrupulous lawyers and judges that omit or permit the wrong evidence which keeps some from getting a truly fair trial. I think that if we hold these people more accountable by not assuming they are beyond reproach, that part of the process will improve too. I understand that the appeals process is supposed to remedy this, but those who commit these "crimes", judges, lawers and such, are rarely reprimanded for subverting the process.

I think that's where our real problems lie. Not so much capital punishment itself.

Posted by: Oyster at December 16, 2005 08:36 AM (YudAC)

34 John Ryan is concerned about appearances and how it reflects on him personally in the eyes of say ... the French, Europeans etc.

Personally, I'm undecided actually - but the reasons are internal to America. I don't give a damn about foreign appearances.

John seeks approval overseas - I prefer an internal debate amongts fellow Americans.

Posted by: hondo at December 16, 2005 09:47 AM (3aakz)

35 Yes, hondo, John is a liberal. I believe that is what you are saying.

Posted by: jesusland joe at December 16, 2005 10:25 AM (rUyw4)

36 The illogic, to me, is how can you as a liberal support killing the unborn and innocent old folks, but not support killing those who have killed, raped or tortured their fellow humans? Life in prison may not be fun (though I've heard some actually prefer it to life outside) but there's always the chance of pardon or escape, especially with liberal governors and Presidents like Billy boy...

Posted by: Doug in Colorado at December 16, 2005 11:56 AM (XZy+R)

37 John,

the difference between us and them is that we execute people for murder, while China, Saudi, and the Congo execute people for showing their ankles, or surfing the wrong websites.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 16, 2005 12:04 PM (8e/V4)

38 First, we need not give a Damn what other countries think of us. They always cry "Help" when their asses need saving!

That being said, The DP is problematic. It costs more than it would cost to put two 30 year olds in Max (23/1) for life . . Because of the "Due Process" we have in place.

It isn't positive, more than half of the people an Death Rows in this country either didn't do it or haven't received a fair trial. Justice goes to those who can afford it. And the poor on death row is proof that justice is expensive!

We have seen by the use of current technology (DNA and other Forensic methods) that quite a few of those on death row were totally innocent of anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Overzealous Prosecutors and Lazy Police tend to excerbate the problem so without solid and noncircumstantual proof of the crime, a person shouldn't be condemned to death.

On the other side of the coin, with definite proof, there are damned sure, people who should be killed by the state. Tookie was really a pretty good example, although in his own case, he was convicted upon Circumstantual Evidence, for the most part. But his founding of the Crips, in my mind, made him one of the best DP Candidates to come down the road! He helped write the rules a whole bunch of murdering assholes lived by!

Posted by: large at December 16, 2005 12:09 PM (fEUSs)

39 Good comment large.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 16, 2005 03:49 PM (0yYS2)

40 Agent Smith wonders why you pod-dwellers keep putting criminals in power as your leaders.

Posted by: Agent Smith at December 17, 2005 03:20 AM (oC6D4)

41 lets put a end to all those stupid appeals its time to say no more appeals

Posted by: sandpiper at December 20, 2005 09:20 AM (jAP6C)

Hide Comments | Add Comment

Comments are disabled. Post is locked.
52kb generated in CPU 0.076, elapsed 0.0933 seconds.
34 queries taking 0.0545 seconds, 196 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.