December 15, 2005
In order to understand the death penalty, we must understand the reasons behind the death penalty. And in order to understand that, we must first understand the proper reason for crime and punishment to begin with. Most people in the US believe that jail is (or should be) for the purpose of rehabilitation. Thus, we have introduced numerous social programs, projects and experiments aimed at turning the criminal into a useful member of society. This process fails for a number of reasons.
For the most part, a criminal has already been taught (or has been born with) a certain mindset. This mindset can be caused by any number of factors, but the largest factor is simply not being taught any differently at home. Does that mean that someone who grows up in a good home with loving parents and is taught right from wrong will never do anything bad? No, but the odds of them becoming a career criminal are far smaller than someone who grows up in a single parent home or with parents who disregard him and is not taught right from wrong.
A child, growing up and being taught, will absorb just about anything you give him at the time. They are constantly learning and emulating everything that they see and hear. They are eager to learn. However, once a person gets out of that child stage, learning becomes a matter of choice. They will not learn anything that they don't wish to learn. And when a person is being punished, they are nowhere near as likely to want to learn. So, when rehabilitation is combined with punishment, the likelihood of its success is dropped dramatically.
In order to simplify matters, I equate the treatment of criminals to raising children. In both cases, they need constant reminders of what is acceptable and what is not. And when they know the rules and break them intentionally, then they are swiftly punished for that violation. The punishment has nothing to do with rehabilitation and is used simply to make them scared enough of the punishment that they do not wish to repeat it.
Of course, this assumes that all criminals have "normal" minds. There will always be serial criminals or people who commit crimes of such horrific proportion that they must be treated differently. When such a person is identified, it is obvious that they it will never be safe to allow them to interact with other people. No amount of rehabilitation will change them and no social program will "reeducate" them. For this type of person, there are only two solutions. Leave them in jail for the rest of their natural lives or kill them. I propose that if this is the choice, it is more humane to kill someone rather than keep them locked up for the rest of their lives with no chance of ever seeing the outside again.
It has been suggested that if we are to supply such a horrific choice, the criminal himself should be given the choice to either live in prison or die. I'm afraid, though, that this approach would open the door to cries of "state assisted suicide." And that would be a reasonable claim. It would be somewhat of a catch-22 if someone knew that just by committing a horrendous crime that they would be allowed to die and they wouldn't have to do anything themselves. Would we still be able to put that person to death? Of course it's possible for that to happen even now, but the odds are much smaller when the decision is in the hands of a judge and jury.
Although our current death penalty system is not perfect, I haven't been presented with any reason yet to do away with it. In a just system, some people simply cannot be allowed to live. It's not pretty, it's certainly not nice, but it's the truth.
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Posted by: ilysa at December 15, 2005 11:17 AM (Fp0l0)
I am for the death penalty for one reason: a dead murderer, rapist or child molester can not re-offend.
Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 11:40 AM (x0fj6)
Posted by: Ariya at December 15, 2005 11:41 AM (+sjRV)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 12:14 PM (8e/V4)
In that regard, I really don't know how effective capital punishment (as opposed to life without possibility of parole) really is, and that is part of the reason I am conflicted about capital punishment.
Posted by: Sean P at December 15, 2005 12:41 PM (DEeWo)
One additional thought: the punishment imposed is a measure of the seriousness of the crime. Lesser punishments devalue life by making the price of murder less dear.
Posted by: slickdpdx at December 15, 2005 12:50 PM (MjGRu)
100% of those put to death have never committed another crime.
Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 12:51 PM (x0fj6)
Posted by: hondo at December 15, 2005 12:53 PM (3aakz)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 01:04 PM (8e/V4)
As far as the death penalty goes, I for one think it is a hold over from a time when revenge/retribution were often mistaken for justice. Sure it's constitutional, so long as there is due process, but as a matter of policy, I find it's practice, um, questionable.
Posted by: KG at December 15, 2005 01:10 PM (eRMCR)
There is no point in keeping certain subhumans alive at the expense of the state......that reminds me, where's Agent Smith?
Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 01:27 PM (wBDaS)
Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 02:19 PM (b2hs0)
so long as you try to make semi-intelligent comments that we can amuse ourselves shooting down ;-)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 02:27 PM (8e/V4)
The liberals on this site make it fun (most of the time), as opposing views spark healthy debate....even though the right is always right.
Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 02:34 PM (wBDaS)
Posted by: Howie at December 15, 2005 02:36 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 02:38 PM (FVbj6)
And no, I don't consider objections to it based on "race" to be legitimate. Poverty, yes. Race, no.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 02:42 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 02:48 PM (b2hs0)
But what crimes deserve the death penaly? I say limit it to murder.
Posted by: youngbourbonprofessional at December 15, 2005 03:08 PM (tdhAh)
Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 03:09 PM (FVbj6)
then logically you're against the entire penal system as well, because I'm willing to bet there's more innocent people rotting in jail than dying in the gas chamber.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 03:14 PM (8e/V4)
Posted by: J-Man at December 15, 2005 03:24 PM (b2hs0)
I wonder, what is the probability of an innocent being put to death? What is the probability that a violent offender will commit another violent crime? Of course, in the effort to compute these probabilities, one would have to take into account the 15+ years the accussed is behind bars.
As regard to what to limit the death penalty to, I agree with J-Man, as I posted early, with one caveat: violent rape as oppossed to the "I-got-drunk-and-realized-I-slept-with-the-dork-from-physics101-better-say-it-was-date-rape" rape.
Posted by: Fersboo at December 15, 2005 03:43 PM (x0fj6)
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the organizations which get involved with cases like this are almost always liberal biased. Defending the innocent doesn't seem like it should be a partisan issue. If it were, the military would be full of Democrats.
Posted by: IO ERROR at December 15, 2005 04:07 PM (FVbj6)
All liberals should be killed for the good of humanity, because they are just to stupid to be allowed to further pollute the gene pool.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 04:19 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 04:24 PM (0yYS2)
We are quick to eliminate any other threat to human life so what makes a killer different from a deadly virus or rabid dog? I would ask any liberal to imagine having a close loved one murdered and then to honestly ask whether the killer deserves to live.
Posted by: Jester at December 15, 2005 04:42 PM (wBDaS)
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 15, 2005 06:26 PM (8e/V4)
It is good the conversation is sober for it is a very sober topic. I don't think all murders warrant the DP but some do. Generally those with a long history of crime and murder or those who murder with calculation (e.g. the hitman or insurance scammer) should be strong candidates for the death penalty. The man who kills the guy banging his wife but otherwise has no more than a few speeding tickets in his past should do the time we normally dole out for murder.
The problem with saying life means life is that life means life does not always mean life or at least does not mean he will not kill again. Pardons are possible (though I admit serious murderers are never high on any governor's list). Also, the Amnesty Intl crowd is starting to agitate against life sentences (yet another activist groups don't go away after success they just change definitions to keep their mission alive). One last thing what makes it impossible to murder in prison? Nothing.
Posted by: Marcus Aurelius at December 15, 2005 06:39 PM (A31HM)
Posted by: john Ryan at December 15, 2005 06:53 PM (ads7K)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 15, 2005 09:09 PM (0yYS2)
Keeping killer criminals alive places an undue burden on the taxpapers, the victims families and the KILLERS families.
In fact, keeping them alive for 25 years before executioning them is bullshit. Punishment 25 years after a crime means nothing.
Execute them. Quickly. Why should a killer, convicted by a jury of his peers and upheld by the appeals process live 20 years longer than his victims?
Posted by: greyrooster at December 16, 2005 06:58 AM (kkjRj)
But with science progressing at the rate it is, DNA evidence and other forensic evidence, we are less and less apt to err. Now the actual process of the trials is another issue and that, I believe, is where we fail.
There are not many, but a few unscrupulous lawyers and judges that omit or permit the wrong evidence which keeps some from getting a truly fair trial. I think that if we hold these people more accountable by not assuming they are beyond reproach, that part of the process will improve too. I understand that the appeals process is supposed to remedy this, but those who commit these "crimes", judges, lawers and such, are rarely reprimanded for subverting the process.
I think that's where our real problems lie. Not so much capital punishment itself.
Posted by: Oyster at December 16, 2005 08:36 AM (YudAC)
Personally, I'm undecided actually - but the reasons are internal to America. I don't give a damn about foreign appearances.
John seeks approval overseas - I prefer an internal debate amongts fellow Americans.
Posted by: hondo at December 16, 2005 09:47 AM (3aakz)
Posted by: jesusland joe at December 16, 2005 10:25 AM (rUyw4)
Posted by: Doug in Colorado at December 16, 2005 11:56 AM (XZy+R)
the difference between us and them is that we execute people for murder, while China, Saudi, and the Congo execute people for showing their ankles, or surfing the wrong websites.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at December 16, 2005 12:04 PM (8e/V4)
That being said, The DP is problematic. It costs more than it would cost to put two 30 year olds in Max (23/1) for life . . Because of the "Due Process" we have in place.
It isn't positive, more than half of the people an Death Rows in this country either didn't do it or haven't received a fair trial. Justice goes to those who can afford it. And the poor on death row is proof that justice is expensive!
We have seen by the use of current technology (DNA and other Forensic methods) that quite a few of those on death row were totally innocent of anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Overzealous Prosecutors and Lazy Police tend to excerbate the problem so without solid and noncircumstantual proof of the crime, a person shouldn't be condemned to death.
On the other side of the coin, with definite proof, there are damned sure, people who should be killed by the state. Tookie was really a pretty good example, although in his own case, he was convicted upon Circumstantual Evidence, for the most part. But his founding of the Crips, in my mind, made him one of the best DP Candidates to come down the road! He helped write the rules a whole bunch of murdering assholes lived by!
Posted by: large at December 16, 2005 12:09 PM (fEUSs)
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at December 16, 2005 03:49 PM (0yYS2)
Posted by: Agent Smith at December 17, 2005 03:20 AM (oC6D4)
Posted by: sandpiper at December 20, 2005 09:20 AM (jAP6C)
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