1 Speaking as a Christian, I have never heard that argument before.  It is total bunk.  The apocalypse may very well be nigh, but it doesn't depend upon what who supports who or who undermines who.  It is foretold, and it WILL occur! (The timing is anyone's guess, but the recreation of Israel strongly supports a sooner rather then later scenario.)

HOWEVER, there are biblical reasons why Christians should (they have not always done so) support Jews and Israel.

The first is a general principle applied to all people.  Treat others the way you wish to be treated.  Extrapolating from that, I support just, lawful and orderly societies no matter who they are, whether they are Christian or not.

A more specific revelation is that the Jews are specially chosen for God's protection and purposes.  God chose Abraham and his descendants to bring mankind back to himself.  Because of this, those who bless Jews will be blessed, and those who curse Jews will be cursed.

What I don't understand is the Lefties constant undermining of Israel and support for policies that "feed the crocodile".  I suppose that if I reacted like they do, I would say it was anti antisemitism.  That might be part of the answer for some of them, but I think it is just one of the factors involved..

2

3 I think Smashmaster has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Yes, Revelations does state that Israel will exist during the "End Times", However, it does not necessarily follow that is has to be the state of Israel in it's current form or location.  Revelations also implies that Israel as a whole will have converted to Christianity by then too.  Frankly I don't see that happening any time soon.

I have heard that we should support Israel and the Jews because they are God's Chosen People and as Christians it is our duty to defend those whom God favors.  I have also heard that we should support Israel as a form of international reparations to Jews as a whole for the crimes of the Nazis (and others).  I have NEVER heard that we should support Israel or the Jews simply because that will hasten the return of Christ.  As Smashmaster said, that's just a load of conspiracy-theorist and bigoted bunk.  Fairly typical of the crap we hear from the left these days.

4 Yes, there is a subset of Christians who strongly believe that the current State of Israel is integral to the Second Coming of Christ.
 
As the previous commentor noted, the Second Coming has been prophesied, but as to the timing -- we really won't know for sure until it happens, nor how it will look, nor what will transpire in the details, regardless of what Tim LeHaye and others like him would say.
 
We just don't know, and whether the current State of Israel has anything to do with it is just the latest in a long line of apocalyptic assertions going back even as far as the Crimean War!
 
That some Christians believe that "we" have to "make" the conditions right for Christ's return is really just an admission by them that God is not sovereign -- and ultimately their faith is useless. I obviously do not have much patience with them.
 
My faith is not based on the current or continued existence of the State of Israel. My support for that nation has more to do with the messy realities of life on this planet.
 
Alan

5 Taking a Leftists word about christians is like taking David Duke's word about Jews, or Hesbollah's word about Israelis.  When it comes to christianity, they are both ignorant and malicious.  The worst of all combinations.
 
I hang out with evangelicals, and they support Israel for all the right secular reasons-- i.e., Israel is a democracy surrounded by a sea of Arab fascism, they have been persecuted for 2,000 years, they came out of the Holocaust, etc.  But they also support Israel for Biblical reasons. 
 
The Biblical reasons include Paul's admonition to the early church that the Jews are the branch and we are grafted into it-- not the other way around.  They are God's first born and children of the Covenant.  God does not forsake his firstborn nor renege on His covenants.  He has not forsaken His firstborn.  When evangelicals think of Jews, they think of the parable of the prodigal son.  To evangelicals, the Jews are the prodigal son.  They are beloved of God, even if they don't (yet) recognize the Messiah (Yeshua, Jesus).  They love Israel and the Jews because Jesus himself was a Jew and came to save his people.  To say evangelicals don't care about Israel except to bring back Jesus of prophecy is just plain ignorant and stupid.  They care deeply about Israel and the Jews.  Problem is many Jews don't want to be cared for in that way.  Oh well.
 
Re prophecy, the Bible-- in both the OT and NT-- speaks of Israel in the End Times.  So when the modern state of Israel was founded in 1948-- after 2,000 years of oblivion-- you can bet that Bible believers perked up real fast.  Does this play into their politics?  Obviously it does.  But to say that it's the only reason they care about Israel is, like I said, just plain ignorant and stupid.
 
 

6 and ps., evangelicals don't believe they have to make prophecy happen.  God doesn't need our help and it will happen no matter what.

7 I went through 12 years of a Catholic education.. I have never heard of the concept that Israel needs to be Jewish for Christ to return, that  an Israeli government needs to be in existence for that purpose,  that He will not return if that real estate is comtrolled by Muslims, nor any other nonsense like it.  Bill Maher doesn't know any more about Catholicism than a jackass knows about the Musee des Beaux-Arts. I am not empowered to speak for the Catholic Church , but that is my experience. Other Christan faiths may speak for themselves.

8 Today's rapture index is 162 that is down 1
The highest number of individual hits received on one day by the rapture index was 2 million. (envy Rusty?)
http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html
According to a recent Newsweek poll linked below 40% of all Americans think that creation science (Genisis) should be taught INSTEAD of evolution in schools. 15% say that Jesus will return to earth in their life time (the end times are here).55% say that every word of the bible is literally true, thus making the earth about 7000 years old. The Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon are no longer able to give an answer to visitors about the age of the Grand Canyon. If 15% of Americans DO think that Jesus will return to earth within their lifetime this might well represent about 1/2 of all of Bush's current "base".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6650997/site/newsweek/

9  
Another thing about Leftists and christianity is that in addition to ignorant and malicious, they are consummate liars.  John Lyin illustrates perfectly.
 
From his link:  Sixty-two percent say they favor teaching creation science IN ADDITION TO evolution in public schools; 26 percent oppose such teaching, the poll shows. Forty-three percent favor teaching creation science instead of evolution in public schools; 40 percent oppose the idea.
 
Yet John Lyin claims christians favor teaching creation INSTEAD of evolution.  A lie.  Busted.  They simply want equal time.   Also notice he says "creation", rather than 'creation science' (Intelligent Design).  The former is the 6 day creation story, the latter is not.
 

10 Hey John,
 
from your link:  Seventy-nine percent of Americans believe that, as the Bible says, Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary, without a human father, according to a new NEWSWEEK poll on beliefs about Jesus.
 
Oh, but wait, don't you Leftists constantly insist that we aren't a christian nation???  Apparently we are.  LOL.  Always have been.

11 do you think Jesus is a toy? he gave his instruction, to love one another, not to kill one another, and not support one group to kill another group. you makeing me sick, I should look for another faith to adopt,
 

12 Ragnar,

Certain prophecies had to be fulfilled about Israel before Jesus is to return and I believe those all have been now.

Israel is reborn into nation again - Matthew 24:32-33
Mat 24:32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; Mat 24:33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
The fig tree in the Bible is always symbolic of Israel. The tree's branches were barren for around 1900 years until new growth started in 1948 when Israel became a nation again.

Return of Jews from around the world - Jeremiah 23:7-8
Jer
23:7 And so, truly, the days are coming when they will say no longer,
By the living Lord, who took the children of Israel up out of the land
of Egypt;
Jer
23:8 But, By the living Lord, who took up the seed of Israel, and made
them come out of the north country, and from all the countries where I
had sent them; and they will be living in the land which is theirs. The Jews have returned to their homeland of Israel and continue to return (called Aliya) to this day.

Jerusalem no longer under Gentile rule - Luke 21:24 and Psalms 102:16
Luk
21:24 And they will be put to death with the sword, and will be taken
as prisoners into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be crushed under
the feet of the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles are complete.
Psa 102:16 When the LORD builds Zion, he will appear in his glory.
Zion in the OT is interchangeable with Jerusalem. In Hebrew it means permanent capital or mountain in Jerusalem. Israel
recaptured East Jerusalem during the Six Day War in 1967 after
capturing West Jerusalem in 1948. Finally all of Jerusalem was in its
rightful owner's hands, the Jews.

Those prophecies have been fulfilled as well as others not pertaining to Israel. Personally, I believe one more thing has to be completed yet before Jesus comes. In the Great Commission (Matthew 2 , Jesus commanded to go make disciples of every nation.  The Greek word ethnos is used for nation which also means tribe. So every tribe must hear the gospel. We must be close to that happening with all the missionaries dispersed around the world.

Jesus said he would come back in a generation's time when Jerusalem was restored from Gentile control. A generation in the Bible is usually 40 years. Jerusalem was restored in 1968 so that would mean Jesus should be here by 2008. We have all the signs Jesus talked about in the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 with false prophets, wars and natural disasters.

Nothing we Christians can do or Israel does can delay or hasten Jesus' return. Only the Father knows when and when it is time He will send the Son, all according to His plan and perfect timing.

To answer your question about Jesus needing Israel, there's nothing that says He needs it. Everyone must remember that the Jews are the apple of God's eye. They are His children. He has a plan for their salvation too and they are included in Revelation 7 as well. We should help protect Israel because it's God's land and to show our allegiance to God. God also promised in Isaiah that He would punish those who attacked and divide up His land. We should help Israel so we can escape God's wrath. The US Roadmap to Peace divides up Israel and angers God. God will continue to punish America if it continues to help Israel lose land to the Philistines (Palestinians).

Israel must also still go through it's battle with Gog's army (Russia, Iran and the Islamic allies) which God supernaturally defeats and Israel doesn't have to lift a finger. Isaiah 17 says Damascus must be a ruinous heap. Whether that happens before or after the rapture is unclear. Solomon's temple needs to be rebuilt as well, Israel needs to sign a 7 year peace plan which will be broken half way through by the Bible's Anti-Christ (Muslim's Al-Mahdi) and he will take over the temple and establish his seat in Jerusalem (fulfilling prophecy from both religions). And so on and so on.

I'm no Bible scholar so feel free to pick apart what I've just written. I'm just laying out my interpretation. I'm going to sleep now.

13 I should look for another faith to adopt, 


You already have-- it's called Liberalism.

14 What a load of crap. There's a reason the left cant cite a single Christian who holds such a belief. The simple reason is that it doesn't exist. The fact that Maher claims President Bush bases American/Israeli foreign policy on this slander shows how out of touch with reality the left really is.

Carlos is right. The left knows next to nothing about Christianity, and are more than willing to lie about it to further their social engineering agenda. It's not a coincidence that the left's anti-Christian slander matches that of the islamopithecines. Your average Christian hating atheist bigot doesn't even read the Bible, much less theological treatises concerning the relationship between Christians and Jews.


Stupid anti-Christian rumors like this get started by cranks and bigots, the same way anti-Semitic rumors get started.


The left picks up on them because most lefties desperately want to believe anything that makes Christianity look bad, especially the so called Christian right. They want their irrational hatred of the "other side" to be confirmed, because hatred is an integral part of their ideology. This gives them a feeling of moral or ethical superiority, which all insecure people need to assuage their fragile egos. (Not desire, but need--desperately.)


This is very similar to the left's unquestioning belief in the fake but accurate National Guard memo, burning shites fable, endless accusations of Israeli atrocities, etc. Anti-Semitism, anti-Christianity, and BDS are all rooted in the same dirty area of the human psyche.The same area that leads to pogroms, oppression and totalitarianism.


Acording to the Bible, the Jews are the chosen people of God. This means they were chosen to help humanity understand its relationship with its creator. They are meant to be teachers, and help others to lead a moral and spiritual life.


That's one of the reasons so many Christians consider themselves Christian Zionists, and so many other Christians refuse to practice bigotry towrd Jews or the Jewish homeland. Another reason is the Christian tenet of peaceful coexistence. "Love thy neighbor" is a prohibition against aggression towards other non aggressive nations. (It's not a command against just warfare, as the ever ignorant left would have you believe.)


Religious reasons aren't the only reasons most Christians support Jews, of course. Christians aren't one dimensional religious zealots who base all their decisions on Biblical scripture, no matter how hard the leftards push that malevolent fiction. Bigotry against innocent ethnic and religous groups is just plain wrong, and israel is obviously the victim in the islamic war against its existence. Obvious to anybody who has bothered to make even a cursory examination of the subject.

"Right-wing Christians" regularly donate time, money, and effort to help Israel and individual Jews--both in and out of Israel. They do not limit their aid to endeavors meant to ensure there is an Israel for Jesus to return to so he can start the Rapture, yadda, yadda, yadda.


Bill Maher and the other smarmy tards on the left are full of shit. If they spent half as much energy trying to help people as they do attacking Christians, the world would be a much better place. Of course, if they were interested in helping people instead of imposing their will on them, they wouldn't be leftists. They'd probably be good Christians.

15 Today's RETARD INDEX is presently 2 in 14 (.2 That's down from yesterday's high, but John Lyin and the aptly named Fuck will probably be joined by more tards eventually.


The Ignorance Quotient is presently at 7, which is a match for the Asshole Quotient.


John Lyin lied (natch,) about Christians and the Newsweak poll, and Fuck lied about being a Christian and the teachings of Jesus, so the Deceit Quotient is at 3.5


I'd say these figures correlate fairly well with national figures. The Christian hating Marxists are the lunatic fringe.

16 I support Israel for reasons that have nothing to do with eschatology (the end times, prophecy, etc.), but because they are the "good guys" in that part of the world. No, they're not perfect and they shouldn't be given a free pass -- but they are the current example of a pluralistic, liberal democracy in the Middle East. Arab Muslims have been elected, and served in the Israeli Knesset. Find me an Arab country that doesn't wish and work for Israel's demise as a country.

What I find mind-blowingly amazing is that if the lefties who consistently side with the Islamic fascists against Israel were to find themselves suddenly a citizen of one of these countries, they would be the first people to be persecuted, imprisoned, censored, or otherwise have their freedom restricted. Wake up, people.

17 The Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon are no longer able to give an answer to visitors about the age of the Grand Canyon.
 
More Leftard lies.   Not really John Lyin's fault though.  He's just a bot repeating mindlessly what he's been told.  That's what Leftards do.  But I'm telling you folks, there isn't much you can take a tard's word on.
 
"If asked the age of the Grand Canyon, our rangers use the following answer. The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old. The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet. The major geologic exposures in Grand Canyon range in age from the 2 billion year old Vishnu Schist at the bottom of the Inner Gorge to the 230 million year old Kaibab Limestone on the Rim."

http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-believe-everything-you-read.html
 

18 The Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon are no longer able to give an answer to visitors about the age of the Grand Canyon.
 
More Leftard lies and hysteria to turn folks against christians.  Not completely John Lyin's fault though.  He's just doing what a good Leftbots does and mindlessly repeating the Leftard lies he himself has been told.  I'm telling you folks, there isn't much you can take a tard's word on.  Here's what the park rangers tell people about the Grand Canyon:
 
"If asked the age of the Grand Canyon, our rangers use the following answer. The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old. The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet. The major geologic exposures in Grand Canyon range in age from the 2 billion year old Vishnu Schist at the bottom of the Inner Gorge to the 230 million year old Kaibab Limestone on the Rim."
 
http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-believe-everything-you-read.html

 
http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-believe-everything-you-read.html

19 >>>>>The Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon are no longer able to give an answer to visitors about the age of the Grand Canyon.

More Leftard lies and hysteria to turn folks against christians. Not completely John Lyin's fault though. He's just doing what a good Leftbots does and mindlessly repeating the Leftard lies he himself has been told. I'm telling you folks, there isn't much you can take a tard's word on. Here's what the park rangers tell people about the Grand Canyon:

"If asked the age of the Grand Canyon, our rangers use the following answer. The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old. The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet. The major geologic exposures in Grand Canyon range in age from the 2 billion year old Vishnu Schist at the bottom of the Inner Gorge to the 230 million year old Kaibab Limestone on the Rim."

http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-believe-everything-you-read.html

20 >>>>>The Park Rangers at the Grand Canyon are no longer able to give an answer to visitors about the age of the Grand Canyon.<<<<<<

More Leftard lies and hysteria to turn folks against christians. Not completely John Lyin's fault though. He's just doing what a good Leftbots does and mindlessly repeating the Leftard lies he himself has been told. I'm telling you folks, there isn't much you can take a tard's word on. Here's what the park rangers tell people about the Grand Canyon:

>>"If asked the age of the Grand Canyon, our rangers use the following answer. The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old. The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet. The major geologic exposures in Grand Canyon range in age from the 2 billion year old Vishnu Schist at the bottom of the Inner Gorge to the 230 million year old Kaibab Limestone on the Rim."<<

http://parkrangerx.blogspot.com/2007/01/dont-believe-everything-you-read.html

21 The National Park Service does, in fact, tell quite plainly how old the Grand Canyon is estimated to be based on geological evidence. Simply because a certain group with an agenda gets a press release published as story does not make their claims true. This is yet another "truth" the left is willing to accept without any verification simply because it fits their preconceived notion about what it means to be George Bush, Christian President.

WARNING: Cognitive dissonance may be experienced by any liberal who clicks on <a target="_blank" src="http://www.nps.gov/grca/historyculture/index.htm">the following link</a>. Reality may contradict what you already accept as true and if you are not the open-minded person you claim to be, DO NOT click here to see actual documented proof of the National Park Service forwarding the obvious heresey that humans occupied the Grand Canyon area TWELVE THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

IF and ONLY IF, any liberal is able to recover from the obvious trauma that the previous link caused, <a target="_blank" src="http://www.nps.gov/grca/faqs.htm#old">click here</a> to discover that the National Park Service does indeed make the obviously unbiblical and profane suggestion that the geologic features of the Grand Canyon are TWO THOUSAND MILLION YEARS OLD! Curse you, National Park Service, you heathen amongst us.

You see, no matter what you read, if you simply accept a story as true because you saw it in print, it means you are not educated. It means you are gullible. It means that you wasted your parents' or taxpayer money on your higher education.

Same goes for believing as true every poll result that is published.

As for Israel... believing Christians support Israel because Jesus cannot return unless Israel exists is simply much easier for a liberal to accept than believing that Christians support Israel because it is the only democratically controlled country in the region.

22 Ah darn. Documented proof that I haven't coded HTML in a while. The shame! The humiliation!

23

I am an American Christian who loves the Jews and supports Israel. The first time I heard of this I was attending a pro-Israel organization meeting. A Jewish woman in the room objected to my support for Israel based on the belief that I, as a Christian was only supporting Israel so that the Jews would return to Israel to get exterminated by the anti-Christ and this would usher in the 2nd coming of the Messiah (Jesus).  I was so flabergasted, hurt and embarrassed. My many Israeli friends welcome my family's support and love of the Jewish people and Israel. In addition, they are also surprised when I tell them that many American Jews believe that Christians have an alternative motive for their support. It is really sad and it is my feeling that this myth is perpertrated by the left to discredit Christians and discourage our support.

24

No; no one knows when Christ is coming back.  And I don't know anyone who lets post-millenialist speculation affect his view of Middle Eastern politics.

25 Yes & No.

I believe there must be some sort of "Israel" in existence when Christ returns -- but that isn't my reason for supporting Israel.

I believe that the blight that is the Dome of the Rock must be removed from Temple Mount and the Temple of David rebuilt before Christ returns -- but that isn't my reason for supporting those Jews who wish to see those things accomplished.

I love the Jewish People as my elder brothers and sisters in faith and pray that they may come to know Christ as the Messiah -- but not because of some weird prophetic scheme about the end of the world.

Indeed, I support Israel and oppose the Islamofascists because it is the right thing to do for my country -- and pray for the salvation of every individual regardless of their race or current religion because it is my duty as a Christian.

26 "do you think Jesus is a toy? he gave his instruction, to love one
another, not to kill one another, and not support one group to kill
another group. you makeing me sick, I should look for another faith to
adopt"
Really? Jesus said not to kill?
Contrary to this common lefty belief... JESUS WAS NOT A HIPPIE!
This hippie-jesus myth ranks right up there with people quoting the King James bible for accuracy. The rule is against murder, a legally and morally different act from killing.
So I guess our friend here just proved Carlos' point: lefties like to blab about christianity, but know very little about it.

27 Firstly, Bill Maher has his head so far up his ass, he gets to chew his food, digest it, then chew it again. No wonder he always has that shit eating grin.

Allowing for my human weakness in despising Maher (who I used to like) As a Christian, on the right, I think humane compassion is virtuous. When bad guys attack good guys, our compassion should motivate us to try and help the one attacked. Even to the point of standing in their active defense. The Christian relationship with Israel is as simple as that.

The 'End Times' are up to God, not me, or anyone on this Earth. It could be another ten thousand years before they come. It could be a million years. Israel could rise, and fall a hundred more times before we see them. Islam could be dust a hundred thousand years gone, and humanity living on distant planets before the 'Second Coming'. The Anti-Christ could come in a form we never imagined. The Anti-Christ could be a machine. WE DON'T KNOW!

I fully suport the teaching of Evolutionary theory as science, because it is the most well supported of the theories. I do support teaching 'Intelligent Design' as part of a 'Philosophy' curriculum, because it is a philosophical arguement.

Currently, the science of evolution isn't in conflict with the philosophical arguement for an intelligent design theory. It is only in conflict with literal readings of most major religions, including Islam. Which is why many fear the idea of evolution in the first place.

For what it's worth, denial of the possibility of 'intelligent design' of any kind, is part of Atheist orthodoxy, and so they oppose teaching it as an open philosophical question. I say they are afraid of this idea, because it threatens their world view, or if you prefer, their religious view. In short, we reject what we fear.

Taken a step further, the Left thrives on fear, and hysteria. "Some religious nut case will take over and start WW3 because of GAWD!". Like no godless pragmatist would ever rationalize starting such a war ??? And Global Warming is more religion than science as well.

I've been reading about prehistory for ever. When I was three years old I was naming and describing 26+ dinosaurs to my parents friends, and I never lost my interest. The prehistoric world has had temperature changes, and huge spikes of CO2 many, many times. It will continue to do so, no matter what the high priests of Kyoto orthodoxy say.

Following this pattern, the Left tries to weaken American power on the international stage. When the cry that "Christians are hoping for the end times!" it is smoke and mirrors. There are two main movements that want to stop US freemarket, democratic, involvement with the larger world. They are Marxism, and Islamism. Because we are a threat to both. See above regarding evolution, and intelligent design.

The US works! It works well enough to reach superpower status, and stay there. Other systems have to borrow ideas from us. They have to copy our methods, because our way gets results.

Marxist socialism can't compete on a level field, thus the socialist elite can never acheive real power while the US continues strong. So they figure we need to be humbled.

Islamism is the same. The Mullahs need to keep screaming about our zits, while they try to conceal their huge deformed and cancerous growths. If one of our soldiers flushes a Quran, its the end of the world. If they stone to death a Christian woman for handing out religious pamphlets, its none of our 'imperialist' business. It's all about repeating lies, loudly, and often, till they are believed, and the Mullahs are pros!

The US legacy is real freedom, empowering the individual in ways Marx, and Muhhamed can only barely imitate. Israel is LIKE US, and under constant existential threat besides. It is no wonder we like Israel, whether we are Christians or not.

As for likeing Jews, just because they are Jews, I cry 'bullcrap'! Noam Chomsky can eat shit and die as far as I'm concerned. So can Israeli citizen Charles Enderlin.

This has always been about Freedom, over Marxism, Fascism, and Islamism. Israel is about Freedom. There you go!

USA, all the way!

28 Let me add one more thing. There is nothing in the Bible that says Israel will be defeated after God has returned His people to the land which is theirs. Nothing to worry about.

I can't wait to see when God supernaturally kicks Russia, Iran, and the Islamic alliance's asses. Whether it's before or after the rapture, from an earthly or celestial view doesn't matter. They will know that He is the Lord.

29 I also think it is like the US and the UK, Jesus was a Jew, Just like most of our founding fathers were British. We tend to look favorably at our heritage.

30 I think the lunatic left has been suffiently eviscerated. Good work, Gentlemen!

31 To answer your three questions:  No, No & No.

If I needed a religious reason to support Israel I would find it in Gen 12:3,  "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee, and in the shall all families of the earth be blessed."

But I supported Israel before I became a Christian.  Why?  Because they are a democratic nation, and have, I believe, acted always in self defense.

32 "Taking a Leftist's word about christians is like taking David Duke's word about Jews."
 
That is exactly correct.

33 Any attempt to read God's mind is foolish, fruitless, and possibly sinful. God reportedly moves in mysterious ways - and good Christians should try to be good Christians and let God do what God will do in God's own time. Trying to predict what will affect the timing of the Second Coming so as to try and speed or delay the day smacks of gaming the system - rules lawyering God, if you will, which is probably really unwise.
 
For my own self, my support of Israel is not linked to faith. It's linked to the cultural commonality I feel with Israelis and their society, the ethical impetus to support any humans in their efforts to survive and prosper, and the geopolitical importance of the only free and democratic society in the region, one which also happens to be an ally.
 

34 Several posts here make the point clear--it's just another caricature on the part of those who hate Christians, i.e., Bill Maher and Co. 

I'm a devout Christian--I love the Jewish people, period.  Just like I love and support freedom loving Palestinians--although sadly, there aren't many of them.  Palestinian Christians face much persecution--we would be wise not to forget them.  God is not a land broker--He calls us to love and to stay by those who are in need.  Israel needs our support since it is surrounded by genocidal factions who will not rest until Israel is gone.  If we do not come to Israel when they need us, we have violated the clear priniciple of loving our neighbour.

As for Jesus' Second Coming--the interpretation that states that he will return to Israel is one of several positions Christians hold to in terms of eschatology.  The return of Christ is the next great event, and nothing, and I mean nothing, can stop it--He can return at any time, regardless of the unrest, or lack thereof, in the region.

If only people like Maher would ask believers how they felt, he would not continue to spin this ridiculous accusation.  But, I guess that's how the left operates--thin on facts, strong on hysteria.

35 My love for and support of Israel is akin to my love for and support of freedom-loving democracies wherever they may be found. As for my Christianity, if I worship Jesus and believe that He's all-powerful, then wouldn't He be able to come and go and do as He pleases regardless of the arbitrary borders of men? Maher is an idiot.

36 Jesus said love your neighbor and that includes the Jews.
 
Jews are the chosen people beccause GOD used his free will to start with Israel to bring the Messiah into the world so we may live life more abundantly. And the Biblical book of Romans says when the nation of Israel finally accepts Jesus then we finally will have the end of death and the raising of those who are dead, and that the troubles Israel faces now is to bring them to the point of realizing Jesus as the Messiah. The Bibical boork of Amos says in its last 2 sentences that Israel is in their land forever.
 
If necessary i will hide Jews to shelter them when the persecutions come despite the consequence to myself.
 
And the liberals are liars, the Bible says that man uses viper poison in their lips: how true of liberals - the barbara boxer attack on Condi Rice is the latest example of their using poisoned words.
 
signed
The_Creature_From_The_Mariana_Trench
 

37 On the one hand, I've seen Christians who soppurt us with words like: "Repent and accept Christ", like these ass holes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQEVTvY5IHY&watch_response. It makes my blood boil and I can't stand it. We never asked you to addopt our believes so why the hell would you think you can expect us to? Personally, my grandmother got to Israel dangerously low weight, after having hidden in Europe pretendending to be Aryan for 6 years, thanks to her being the only blond in her family she was the only one who survived,with the memory of her mother kicking her out saying: "you look German so go and live!" when she was only 14 crying and begging to stay with them. But through all of that starvation it was so important to her to be true to her parents and not forgetting where she came from that she risked her life, once by escaping the church she had taken refuge in, just so she won't have to pray infront of the cross, and once by one of her employers noticing she wasn't eating anything that might have meat in it, and started to suspect she was Jewish. So when I see "Repent your sins and accept Christ" like in this video, all I have to say is: "yeah well, don't hold your breath". Beggars can't be choosers and we need friends, but I think we can tell the difference between friends and those who think they can take advantage of what seems to them as a dead end for us.
 
On the other hand (or not really) about this "he who blesses Israel thing", an idea ran by me in one of my Hevrutas (Torah learning groups every Jew is soppused to make some time for) a few years ago, when we got into this great argument about a great Rabbi's comments on Clinton's visit to Israel and his speech in the knesset where he said his priest had ordered him to "not forsake Israel" before he died. The Rabbi had commented that USA had been falling under the Gmara definition of "Malhut Hessed" which in free translation means a kindom of flow of prosperity to the world  because it is righteous. Never mind the whole  argumentation. But since only some two or three have been decisively declared as such, one can learn from every example what the definition really is, since it has countless criterions and it is very hard to determine which is most important. So (at last) the rulling idea was that Israel is always in a situation when no state REALLY has interests to have alliance with her. It's not like we have any other cards to our chest. Lets face it: the whole Arab world has always prefered who ever was willing to hate us, there have been years of boycotting any company who does buisness with us by rich oil states, some still do so, and it is very hard to see anyone having any reall pragmatic interest in prefering relations with us over ALL of our haters (and that's alot). And no one really does prefer us. Europe has been conducting a Foreign Plicy of: "as long as you only go after Israel we'll say they had it coming and not interfere", and has really never gotten over its antisemitism. And the Soviets have hated Jews even more than they have Hitler. So it isn't like if America turned its back at us we would have any other options. You have the sae enemy, but it's not like we would have had any other option but fight him if you say turned your back at us, because he would still want to kill us. So, most of us decided that what made it easy to decide USA was Malhut Hessed, is the fact that aligns itself with us eventhough it might be more tempting to kick us in the ass. It's like the most popular guy in class deciding to be friends with the geek everyone gives him a hard time for associating with.Someone suggested that that's the reall meaning of "he who blesses Israel will be blessed", because Israel has always been a lonley nation with no one having real interest in helping. So because helping someone else even thought he can't really repay you, and you have no pragmatic interest in helping him is the very definition of Hessed, and those who do "Hessed"s prove they do things out of love for kindness or God, and so are being used as "tubes" of prosperity to mankind according to the Zohar (or Kabbalah), that's the logical meaning of "he who blesses Israel's..." and the way it works with the rules we know.
 
Man... that came out lllloooonnnnggg. Sorry.

38 To keep it simple...
 
There are Christians who think they SEE current events in Israel as to leading up to the rapture, not the mistaken notion of Christians only support Israel for this reason. 
 
Now, Jews did take better care of Joseph's Tomb and are not wont to destroy Christian religious symbols as Muslims are.  There could be something to that. 
 
The thing to remember is that Revelations is a very controversial book in the Bible.  Nobody has the same interpretation of it.  Truly.
 
As for me personally, I love my neighbors and treat them as I would have them treat me.  We all seem to get along well around here with the occasional spat between people who are human afterall.
 
My country is a bigger part of myself, and if radicalized Muslims in Iraq are blowing up Marines with IEDs, then they are blowing me up, too.  IMO, people like that need a hole in the head. 
 
I wonder what liberals think about Muslims who believe in Islamic end times prophecy like Iran's current president, who believes he will bring about the Madji (something like that). 

39

Rep J: the sunni's are awaithing Mahdi and the shia are awaiting the 12th iman.

Revealation does have some very clear statements in English predictions of the future of humanity such as how for 3 and a half days that all tribes on earth will give gifts to each other in clelebration becasue of the death of 2 men of GOD in Jerusalem and refuse them burial so they could look upon the dead bodies and refuse them burial [Rev 11 verse 8-10] NOTE this is now possible with satalite communication (and the olymics in 2006 was watched world wide via satalite like yassir arafat's funeral was like wise wathc worldwide via satalite0

Also Revealation makes very clear statements that there is a man worse than hitler comming, who will make everyone on earh worship him otherwise you will not get his mark on your skin without which you will not be allowed to buy or sell [thus you will starve to death without being able to buy food] [Revealation 13] Also Reveation states whoever recieves this mark will be sent to hell.  This person mentioned in Rev 13 is the same one who will make a 7 year peace treaty with Israel so the Jews can build their 3rd temple talked about elsewhere in the Bible.  In addition Revealation is very specific of the order the worldwide disasterrs to befall the earth during this 7 years.

 

signed

The Creature From The Mariana Trench 

40 How do you think JESUS would be treated after all he is not PC and he would be under attack by PETA,GREENPEACE,SIERRA CLUB,WORLD WILDLIFE FUND,PFLAG,NAMBLA,and AL GORE and many other liberal wussies

41 I wasn't going to add anything else, but then I noticed I had been given Greyrooster's name and e-mail  automayically, and that if I commented without looking, I would have shown as Greyrooster. One of many glitches lately.    USA, all the way!

42 How's about all of you guys (Christian, Muslim, and Jew), stop trying to run the world according to bronze age mythology? That'd be cool.

43 To think that anyone can pull anything useful out of revelations is silly. The bible states that even Jesus does not know the end time so how could any human possibly "hasten" the 2nd coming of Christ. Revelations itself has had dozens of different interpretations depending on which point in history you look at. In fact many of its versus are refering to events that had already occurred in churches oppression from Rome. Even the number 666 when applied as Greeks would have used it refers to Emporer Nero who may very well be the identity of the anti-Christ. It seems strange that another end times book would be written when it was already present in the old testament. Just my thought though.

44 This note is for anyone interested in digging a little deeper into the bible than just  reading a Hal Lindsey book or the latest "End Times" fiction best seller. You might consider looking at some simple facts right in the Bible itself.  For instance, much of the quotes about the "end times/last days" are taken from Matthew chapter 24.
But look at what Jesus says vs 34:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

There is no doubt that the understanding of this verse (which is repeated in other verses) is speaking of the time of those people.   That is why all through the New Testament there is a sense of urgency.  Look at what Jesus says to them in Luke 21:20 (Mat24:15)

"When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
 
And he tells them to head to the mountains when this happens.  THIS HAPPENED The Romans sieged Jerusalem for over 3 years and destroyed it and the temple, all in THEIR generation.  This is not to happen again! Mat 24:21

I hope this helps some people to stop being so manic about world events.

45 Darwin and Intelligent Design

Some interesting articles here:  www.discovery.org

46 How's about all of you guys (Christian, Muslim, and Jew), stop trying
to run the world according to bronze age mythology? That'd be cool.

John,

you'd still be sacrificing children to your bronze-age gods if it weren't for judaism and christianity.  You'd still be slaughtering tens of millions for your 20th century atheistic dream of the "new man" if it weren't for christianity.  Godlessness had it's shot and it proved worse than anybody could ever have imagined.

47 Carlos,

These atheists of the 20th C. even put Ghenghis Khan to shame with the millions slaughtered in the name Nazism, Communism, and Socialism. How about him and his stop trying to run the World with their totalitarianist mythology?

And comparing Christians and Jews to Muslims further highlights the complete ignorance of history this man betrays.

48 Apparently you didn't even try to find the Christians that you speak of because in 15 seconds I found these:
http://www.biblelight.org/sign.htm

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

This is my personal favorite:
http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/pna/GeorgeWBushAndBibleProphecy.htm

google - it's good

49 All Spin:


Like all anti-Christian bigots, you're a lying sack of shit. None of the sites you listed preached the exploitation of Jews to provide a landing pad for God in Israel. You thought you could slip in a lie on an old thread.


Truth. It's good.

50 All spin,

yup.  Good christians believe in Bible prophecy.  Has anybody disputed that?  Nope.  But like Jeff Bargholz points out, nothing in your links is exploitative of Israel or the Jews.  That is a Leftist lie.  You are Leftist and a liar.

51

I have been wondering where the BIG WHITE INFIDEL AND BROTHER have been. Jump on the Christians and he will boot you in the ass.

 

I am not a Christian but my common sense tells me that I had better make damn sure the Christians win.
 
As for the Jews. I support them because they do not wish to kill or convert me. I know nothing about the Jewish religion.  But KINKY FRIEDMAN is a jew and he has a song that says they just want to doddle a Christian girl and they killed Gods only son. So I'll keep an eye on the little buggers.