1 Yep, "Call me angry and war-like and I'll kick your ass". Someone needs to tell them that sometimes the truth hurts.

2 I'm not a Catholic but I loved the old Pope for his compassion and I love this new Pope Benedict XVI for his guts!
I want to tell him in his native language: "Ganz richtig! Auf gut Deutsch gesagt!" [translation: Absolutely right! Well said Sir!]

3 This feels an awful lot like a forced conversion ...

4 This feels an awful lot like a forced conversion ...

(or a dissertation defense)

5 Did you see the picture of the Pope that is circulating around the Arab world? And they complain about Muhammad's cartoons being shown in the West? Pales in comparison to what they did to the Pope's pic. Another round of Koran in the toilet, Muhammad cartoons and a Fatwa against the Islamofascists is in order I think.

6 Pope Benedict XVI was very courageous in saying what needs to be said in regards to Islamo-Fascism. And he hasn’t apologized for what he said. He just said he is sorry that the Muslims were offended.

But, I guess the Muslims can’t handle the truth.

By the way, leftists have come out and renounced the Pope’s comments.

Here is what one liberal blogger posted.

http://melt212.livejournal.com/171321.html

“I feel empathy for the muslims who just got bitch slapped by the pope because I had a boyfriend like that once. ”

Spoken like a true member of the Democratic Party base. Treats foreign affairs like it was the Jerry Springer show.

7 They can make all the terrible pictures of the pope that they want. We're not going to start firebombing mosques because of it. Not that they'd notice that bit of civility.

8 Ok...so now that the Pope is "sorry", can we expect the RoP moderates to lay down their guns and grenades and act like the "non-violent" muslims they VOCIFEROUSLY CLAIM they are?

heh...don't hold your breath.

9 All our beliefs should be in 2000 years of knowledge not 2000 year old knowledge. What to do? The barbarians are on both sides of the gate!

10 We don't forcibly convert anyone, Professor. It's banned by the Jawa Holy Book.

We simply cut your head off if you don't.

11 He's not going to apologize for something he didn't do.

12 tbone, I excused your bout of silliness the other day, but your moral equivalence is starting to get tiresome. If somehow you can equate today's Catholicism to today's Islam, I do wish you would show me some proof. I don't happen to be Catholic, but I'll tell you one thing, I would spend my life in a Catholic country or setting long before I would an Islamic country. There is no comparison. One is truly barbaric, and the other is not. And I know which it is, and you should be ashamed to say otherwise.

13 I dont think the issue is weather or not muslims are blood thirsty religious fanatics, but the implications of such a brod statement comming from such a influencial, powerfull man. The popes quote was Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things. That's like saying because the bibal states justice as being "an eye for an eye" (exodus), jesus brought nothing but evil and inhuman things. Now, regardless of weather youre a terrible person, or particularily vengefull, if your a fellow christan, that quote could very well rub you the wrong way. And as far as bombing churches, the middle esat has been religiously tense for 6 decades with issues coming from every possible side of the fence. I live in canada, and so far all I've seen from this is some iritated muslims, but definilty no vengefull bombings. And no one has tried to forcibly convert me or threatened to decapitate me. i don't know if you guys have delt with that kind of stuff before, but if so that's pretty crazy. But it seems to me that the muslim people you guys know must be pretty terrible, because you guys seemed to have judged all 1.100 billion of them. Anyway thiers my two cents, I stumbled across you're forum while searching for different perspectives on the isss. I mean you lot no disrespect

God Bless

Sal Hawkens

14 I dont think the issue is weather or not muslims are blood thirsty religious fanatics, but the implications of such a brod statement comming from such a influencial, powerfull man. The popes quote was Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things. That's like saying because the bibal states justice as being "an eye for an eye" (exodus), jesus brought nothing but evil and inhuman things. Now, regardless of weather youre a terrible person, or particularily vengefull, if your a fellow christan, that quote could very well rub you the wrong way. And as far as bombing churches, the middle esat has been religiously tense for 6 decades with issues coming from every possible side of the fence. I live in canada, and so far all I've seen from this is some iritated muslims, but definilty no vengefull bombings. And no one has tried to forcibly convert me or threatened to decapitate me. i don't know if you guys have delt with that kind of stuff before, but if so that's pretty crazy. But it seems to me that the muslim people you guys know must be pretty terrible, because you guys seemed to have judged all 1.100 billion of them. Anyway thiers my two cents, I stumbled across you're forum while searching for different perspectives on the isss. I mean you lot no disrespect

God Bless

Sal Hawkens

15 Sal Hawkens:
you gawd damn Mohammedan-and-honor-killer apologist,
you passive and effeminate Quebecois wimp,
you NDP voting Commie pinko,
FOAD.

16 Jesse Jackson was on Fox TV this AM saying the Pope should apologize to the muslims. Asshole.

Sal hawkens: From now on you shall be known as Sadie Hawkens. Just as ignorant to the modern world. Yea. 3000 deaths at the world trade center was nothing. May you be in the next bldg they blow up. After all it doesn't count unless it happens to you. Right.
And fuck Canada. They used to be a country with balls. Now nothing more than socialists in fear of the muslims they let move there.

17 wow! Im sorry i affended you so much. Im sure that whatever religion you're a part of your God must love all that rage and hate. You seem like a good person.

18 wow! Im sorry i affended you so much. Im sure that whatever religion you're a part of your God must love all that rage and hate. You seem like a good person.

19 Canadians are all of the Church of Tax and Spend.

Useless castrated lemmings...

20 Here is a bit of fresh air:
 
Four churches hit, none were Roman Catholic. Morons, complete ignorant morons. The only thing we need to do is find out who it is that explains to them where they are really supposed to put their dicks, and silence them. The rest will be history.

21 Sal, like the muslim world, you have latched onto this sentence:
 
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".
 
as if it's all the Pope said. One of the points he was addressing was violence in the name of religion. A topic like that demands that the speech bear some relevance to the problems that the world is currently facing. Which religion, and I'm talking about on a global scale here, is currently at the forefront of conversions under duress and killing in the name of God? Zen buddhists? Mormons? Wiccans? As for this piece of tripe:
 
And as far as bombing churches, the middle esat has been religiously tense for 6 decades with issues coming from every possible side of the fence. I live in canada, and so far all I've seen from this is some iritated muslims, but definilty no vengefull bombings. And no one has tried to forcibly convert me or threatened to decapitate me.
 
Tell that to the non-muslims of Pakistan, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia - all not located in the Middle East. I'm sure they'll be willing to listen and will totally agree with you.
 
 

22 Sal Hawkings: Get some testosterone shots quick.

23 How is it that all these Muslims can get a transcription of the Pope's speech, read it and understand it, find material for placards and neatly block print nasty words for the Pope and the West in English, find material for effigies etc. They can't.

THe radical immans preached the hate on Friday, distributed the placards and effigies at the door, along with some matches, called the photographers and probably even sent in the photos to our news sources now showing them on TV

It wouldn't matter what the Pope said. THey want war. And before they come in for the final kill, they want us cowering so we won't talk amongst ourselves and possibly fight back. This is a cynical and planned media attack and of course the New York Times is falling all over itself not to offend.

THey seem to be playing chess while we play pick-up-sticks.

Please tell me that I am just being paranoid.

24 Flight 93 Heroic, Flight 93. Let's Roll!

25

I always find it interesting, when the Muslims get upset about being compared to "Fascists"!

President Bush used the term "Islamo-fascists" the other week, and it so upset the Muslims, it even came out when the Palestinian Group kidnapped Centani and Wiig of FoxNews!

Everyone should take a gander at this Article, to show EXACTLY how tied in, the Muslims were, and have been tied DIRECTLY in with the Fascists, since the 1930's!

By the way, this guy, the Grand Mufti of Jeruselum, was Yasser Arafat's distant cousin!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

26 Sal,
The reason you haven't seen overtly violent demonstartions from Muslims in Canada following the Pope's statement is that Muslims here don't feel they have sufficient numbers, i.e. a critical mass. And a significant portion of Canada's population is Catholic.
Have you forgotten the Muslim plot to blow up the CN Tower and CSIS HQ in Toronto and the plot to attack the House of Commons?
Don't be naive man! Wake up and smell the toast burning.
For God's sake have a look at the following link
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=1&page=1

27 Darth Vag,
I can assure you that in Canada's most populace province the average Joe-six-pack Canadian is NOT likely to want to play the apologist to the Islamo-fascist like Sal; on the contrary, people here are sick and tired of the Islamists using political correctness/Multiculturalism as instruments for furthering their expansionist aggenda.

28 "Also note that none of these hysterically angry Muslims even bother to deny Benedict's remarks -- they simply say that they insult Islam, not that their meaning is inaccurate."

Actually, the designated "good cop" -- "Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik" has said, "These are all lies." (Jerusalem Post)

Doesn't change the fact that the response of muslim leaders to this "insult" to Islam dishonors their faith far beyond anything the Pope could do or say.

29 Did anyone even bother to read what the Pope said? He was quoting a conversation between a Byzantine ruler and a Persian. Quoting a conversation. The NYT led the lynching, and then the usual suspects followed suit. I wonder if there is a major news organization left with any integrity. Highly doubtful. In any event, the reaction of these Muslims has proven the words of the Byzantine ruler to be correct.

30 THIS JUST IN: Ap: Muslims behead Pope; Democrats behead Bush.......film at ten.

31 From Sal: "That's like saying because the bibal states justice as being "an eye for an eye" (exodus), jesus brought nothing but evil and inhuman things."

No. It's not even remotely like that. An eye for an eye was Old Testament. Jesus was New Testament. Let me put it in more elementary terms for you. In the Old Testament the motivating force was fear and consequences. In the New Testament the motivating force is love.

Then you go on to say - "all I've seen" - "no one has tried to forcibly convert me" - "or threatened to decapitate me".

Sal, there is a world beyond your doorstep. Have a look around.

Further: "... you guys seemed to have judged all 1.100 billion of them".

What "seems" and what "is" are two different things. I can't speak for everyone, but the prevalent mindset here does not reflect your assumption at all.

No disrespect here. Just pointing out the obvious fallacies in your commentary.

32 Oh, and BTW - I stand with the Pope. And I'm not even Catholic. But then I stand with Israel too and I'm not Jewish.

33 More ROP shittiness... a 60-year old nun was shot in the back by Islamist Asshats in Somolia. Because of the Pope's speech.

Now, really, why should the world be saying bad things about this Religion of Peace?

When is the "Obsession" movie going to be broadcast nationwide in this country? It should be in constant rotation on every TV set in the USA.

I am absolutely bumfuddled about this...

34 ErichinTexas: I think we all are bumfuddled by this except maybe IM who is unquestionably lucid (albeit sometimes extreme with the solutions)

Our political leadership act like deers caught in the headlights. Where are our leaders ???

Nixon said that good political leadership requires courage, brains and compassion. We need someone with alot all three. And we need this person fast.

Aside: I'm citing Nixon - of all politicians - a true indication that the center does not hold.

35 Okay, someone tell me why muslims and lefturds shouldn't be exterminated like the vermin they are. Anyone?

36 IM: I honestly can't tell you why they shouldn't be - I just personally can't face this reality. I'm not claiming any superiority here, or "high moral ground" - if anything, I think I'm weak in this regard - I'm a mother, maybe that's it - but I am truely grateful for our military, those who do have the guts to stand up and protect me.

37 I know Dreamer, I know. The awful truth is that we face an enemy that knows our strengths and weaknesses, and does not share our love of peace or our respect for life. The only successes against muslims have come as a result of brutally crushing them until they can no longer stand the fight, but they always come back after a time. This war has been going on with little interruption for over 1400 years, and will continue until the muslims are victorious or exterminated. They have set as their goal nothing less than global domination, and as long as one remains alive, they will be a threat. We know the measure of their resolve, which is so great that they will strap bombs onto their children, and they know the measure of our resolve, which is basically weak and halfhearted at best. Islam is a disease not unlike the plague, and every carrier must be eradicated. There is no such thing as a peaceful muslim, there are only those who have taken up jihad, and those who haven't yet. As long as muslims exist in the world, there will always be killing in the name of their moon god, and they will always enjoy the unconditional support of the liberals. We must resolve to fight them to the death or surrender now, because those are the only options that they recognise, and since they're the ones who have been at war with us for over fourteen centuries, we're playing by their rules.

38 IM: Do you think there is any chance of an Islamic reformation? ...I call myself "dreamer" for a reason, I guess. What do you make of Muslims who are now apostates and speaking out - like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Wafa Sultan? Too few and too far in between? Mostly women, which is interesting.

39 "I dont think the issue is weather or not muslims are blood thirsty religious fanatics, but the implications of such a brod statement comming from such a influencial, powerfull man. The popes quote was Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things. That's like saying because the bibal states justice as being "an eye for an eye" (exodus), jesus brought nothing but evil and inhuman things. Now, regardless of weather youre a terrible person, or particularily vengefull, if your a fellow christan, that quote could very well rub you the wrong way."

Sal Hawkins notes he is a stumbling visitor, so he might not be back. Just in case he does I want this to be here for him. Sal, I'm no expert in Islam wrt the TWO quotes the Pope offered in contrast. For that matter I don't know the background on origin of the Old Testament's verse of "an eye for an eye". But my interest would be piqued to investigate if your comparison wasn't the horrendous mismatch it is.

The Pope's first quote was of a verse from the Surah indicating 'No compulsion to religious belief' and contrasted it with Mohammed's later proclamation to spread Islam by the sword. I would have thought that both came from Mohammed, which belies the Emperor's assertion of "... only evil and inhuman ..." Maybe it is accurate if the understanding is that the former are words from God faithfully written down by Mohammed, while the latter, much later addition to Islam's beliefs, is Mohammed' own commentary. That would seem to fit well and, therefore, be worthy of the Pope's reconsideration from the standpoint of reason. Of course it could be thought that, the first, earlier, verse was then overridden by a later, opposite version, both by Mohammed. If that is the case, then the Emperor's "only evil and inhuman" is not accurate, and "did bring good, but then threw that good out in favor of evil and inhuman" is more accurate. (These are the only two reasonable ones within the context being discussed here; others drag in a much broader discussion of God and are not relevant to the argument or your analogy.)

Now your analogy. If you believe Christ is, in a simplistic lay fashion, the Word of God and in the same uncomplex fashion consider the Bible the Word of God faithfully written down, then "you might be of the belief that "an eye for an eye" are Christ's words, given before he was sent by the Father. So far so good. But, the only way you could leave your argument that this analogy is apt is, by you, yourself, concluding that "turn the other cheek", is, in your mind also evil and inhuman, because I know you aware that Jesus said that in an approving manner.

How do I know you are aware of that saying? Because I know you are not that great of an idiot. Sal, "turn the other cheek" was one of the most revolutionary concepts in history, an admonition in the Sermon on the Mount, to take that to heart rather than "an eye for an eye". I'll toss in the admonition "thee who is without sin, cast the first stone" for free, Sal.

So, Sal, you are being argumentative in a very bad way and in a poorly constucted way, too. You do Muslims a disservice by offering up a head-shakingly, stupifyingly lousy analogy. Unless, of course, you do think turning the other cheek is evil and inhuman. Do you believe that, Sal?

40 Hey Jesusland Joe, thanks for the conversation. I don't think any religion is more barbaric - they simply are related to the host society's economic situation (liberal economy, liberal religion, Pat Robertson aside). Muslims may be more archaic with no centralized figurehead but the problem as I see it is that the Pope has his position as head of the Catholic church/state (Christians do have a Christian state, just like Israel - except surrounded by Italians) and there is no countering position of figurehead status from the 'other' side. So who does he expect will respond to his provocational 'statement'?

41 The stage for this conflict was set 3000 years ago when Abraham drove Ishmael into the wilderness. His descendants, the Arabs, have never forgiven this. Thus they are in never-ending conflict with all their neighbors, and their neighbors in constant war with them. The conflict will not end until the Arabs and the armies of the nations march on Jerusalem and are destroyed in the valley of megiddo. There will be no peace before that day. There is nothing we can do to stop it, nor do we need to encourage it. It will happen all its own.

42 Where's the valley of megiddo. I gotta see this.

43 Uh, tbone, would you please read the statement before you say it was provocative? It was in no way provocative. He was quoting a conversation between two men, one Christian and one Muslim, discussing Islam, and whether it offered anything new. How is that provacative?

44 Dreamer, an islamic reformation is impossible, because the savage nature of most muslims means that the most violent will always call the shots - literally. Any "moderate" muslims who stand up to the terrorists will lie down riddled with shrapnel. The only solution is to kill them all and let God sort them out.

45 Actually George Bush (our fearless and great leader) called the Pope and asked him to incite the muslimes. The muslimes actions were predictable. Bush's ratings will rise in time for the elections. Smart huh! Why we republicans keep on winning.

46 Rusty,

The Pope may have had another purpose in focusing attention on the Byzantine Empire, a highly cultured, Christian- Roman civilization that pre-existed in the areas conquered by the Islamic Empires that replaced it. Not for Byzantine’s record for religious toleration, but rather by the consideration that several modern Islamic claims are contradicted by the historic evidence found from Byzantine’s very existence and final bloody ending. For example, that Islam has a legal and historical claim to enforce its religious control over certain regions.

The Byzantine emperor expressed fear and abhorrence of Islamic violence for valid historical reasons. His civilization was under brutal assault by the Islamic armies. He was not an ignorant, irrational bigot. His civilization was under brutal assault by the Islamic armies. Yet, I find few people know or remember the significant details of Byzantine's existence and final bloody ending.

Islamic leaders have a tradition of ignoring the prior claims of other religions and civilizations that pre-existed Islamic dominance. Part of the Imams' anger may have also been provoked by their consternation that Byzantine's long buried historical lessons has been brought to world attention.

If you are interested, I posted a more complete version of this argument:
Islam Attempts to Silence an Historic Warning
http://loathlylady.blogspot.com/2006/09/imams-attempt-to-silence-historical.html

47 Rusty,

The Pope may have had another purpose in focusing attention on the Byzantine Empire, a highly cultured, Christian- Roman civilization that pre-existed in the areas conquered by the Islamic Empires that replaced it. Not for Byzantine’s record for religious toleration, but rather by the consideration that several modern Islamic claims are contradicted by the historic evidence found from Byzantine’s very existence and final bloody ending. For example, that Islam has a legal and historical claim to enforce its religious control over certain regions.

The Byzantine emperor expressed fear and abhorrence of Islamic violence for valid historical reasons. His civilization was under brutal assault by the Islamic armies. He was not an ignorant, irrational bigot. His civilization was under brutal assault by the Islamic armies. Yet, I find few people know or remember the significant details of Byzantine's existence and final bloody ending.

Islamic leaders have a tradition of ignoring the prior claims of other religions and civilizations that pre-existed Islamic dominance. Part of the Imams' anger may have also been provoked by their consternation that Byzantine's long buried historical lessons has been brought to world attention.

If you are interested, I posted a more complete version of this argument:
Islam Attempts to Silence an Historic Warning
http://loathlylady.blogspot.com/2006/09/imams-attempt-to-silence-historical.html

48 Good post Ragnell. All of islam's wars have been wars of "defense" of islam or muslims. They attacked Persia and Byzantium to prevent them from attacking islam. Then they attacked Egypt, North Africa, Spain, France, Greece, the Balkans, and Austria to keep them from attacking islam. See how simple it is? Islam is very legalistic in its methodology, and so its doctrine is very strict in when and how to conduct war; for example, war is permissable to defend muslim territory from infidels.
What, then is the legal definition of muslim territory? Well, any place that a muslim sets his foot becomes de facto muslim territory, so war is inevitable simply by the presence of muslims. They carry the jihad with them wherever they go, with full doctrinal support. Anyone who meets a muslim has three choices; convert, fight to the death, or fight until you have to surrender, then become a slave. The only way to deal with muslims is to kill them wherever they are found, and the more brutal the death they are given, the better, so as to serve as a lesson to future jihadis.
When we have to fight them in our own streets, the best way to dispose of them will be either burning them alive or stuffing their dicks into their mouths and covering them with pig's blood.

49 I can see it now...here is an excerpt of tommarows news:

As we all have heared by now Mulsims in the middle east are venting their rage at just about anything. Thier latest victim is the Roman Catholic chruch on the corner of Jihad and Baklava in downtown Beirut. A throng of angry Muslims descended on the church and proceeded to torch and loot the entire contents. When a masked gunman was asked why the church was targeted by the mob, he replied "The Pope has offended the great Satan...I mean Mohammed, and we will not stand for this! They will pay dearly for this insult to islam, BEHEAD THE POPE ALLLAH WAKBAR (FIRING AK47 INTO THE AIR)"

50 I came across some addition text of the quote and found it quite interesting considering the response from the "religion of peace". Seems like the islamotards owned up to exactly what the Emperor was talking about.


"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." He then continues, saying, "God is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (syn logo) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."

51 For those confused by the Bible's "eye for an eye" vs "turn the other cheek", you need a little bit of context. The first is in relation to human government (ie it is a governmental responsibility to implement justice: an eye for an eye). The second is in regards to personal response (ie don't take the law into your own hands). One does not supercede the other, and both are still valid today.

52 True, Henry, though "an eye for an eye" beyond the setting in which it is judged, was a lawful right of the people, and it's words define both rigorous justice and it's limits, preventing penalties to only what is just.

And as is pretty clear from the statistics, most cases are individually brought to court not governmentally initiated. Jesus's admonition to "turn the other cheek" was the most famous excerpt of His response to the traditional right of "an eye for an eye", and also included " ... and if anyone would go to the law with thee and take thy tunic, let him take thy cloak as well ...". In this sense, Jesus is telling listeners to consider not claiming their right, "an eye for an eye", for charity's sake.

As you say, both are still valid today but I would not go so far as to say that Jesus did not teach that the latter should not supercede the former in the foregoing sense of individually initiated suits which is just another form of turning the other cheek.

But context is good so let me go beyond your helpful clarification. It seems to me that Jesus didn't leave it at "turn the other cheek" in toto, such that one should live life charitably singing "whatever will be, will be" while tossing one's cloak onto a heap of other belongings others demand. I think the context includes reconciling with your brother, coming to terms with your opponent, and another one I remember vaguely, which was if you had trouble in doing these go and bring another to witness in your behalf and, I may be wrong here, if that doesn't work, then walk away. Those are engagement using acts of reasoning, on the order of outlining one's rights and another's duty, something the Pope was attempting.

And I'll leave it at that.