1 So now you know, when the Libtards talk about the "moderate" muslims, they mean moderate by islamic standards, not ours. It's all relative! And it depends on what the definition of "is" is!

2 Well they may be S.O.B.s but at least they are...... no wait that was already used as a rationale in Somalia. Jailing people for publishing anti religous cartoons ? The next thing that you know they will be making it illegal to teach evolution in schools. AS for seperation of church and state it took 16 hundred years for western Europeans to get to that point. Perhaps it will take the muslims an equally long time.

3 John Ryan, you are surely one of the useful idiots who can never find anything wrong with Islam. But to tell you the truth, the Muslims have had about 1400 years to leave the Dark Ages behind, and frankly, I don't have the time to wait a few hundred years in the hope these people will change. Nor does the World. These people are likely to destroy the World as we know it given a little more time, way before that change you keep predicting a few hundred years hence.

Christians and Muslims were on about the same level in the Dark Ages, and the fact that Muslims are still stuck there doesn't seem to bother you, but it is telling in my opinion.

4 Rusty--indicting Mohammed for not founding a religion that respected the separation of church and state is like accusing him of teaching his followers to always breath air. there were NO religions in that time that understood separation of church and state as we do today. Even if we interpret Christ's render caesar unto caesar story as meaning separation of church and state, that interpretation was not the one of the early Christian fathers of the church. When Christians rose to power, they adopted the Roman practice of union between Church and state. Throughout human history, the forces of religion and government have been partners. In the renaissance the idea that church and state should be separate began to appear, but its realization is much more recent.

As for "pedophile": do you have any idea what the sexual age of consent was in Europe at the time that you are criticizing Mohammed? Do you have any idea what it was on the American frontier in 1840?

You are guilty of committing the same intellectual sin that leftwing historians do when they casually label our Founding Fathers "racist" and "sexist" as if modern standards of morality can be cavalierly applied to different historic periods. I'm not saying that Slavery wasn't racist; just that people need to be judged within their own historic context. We probably do something today that will be judged as immoral five hundred years from now (eating animals? Taxing income?).

And I'd love to see you count up the deaths that Islam has caused, versus those caused by Christianity and Communism. You got a source for that claim?

5 jd,

stop apologizing for your little brown munchkins. Christianity spread through evangelism, not the sword like islam did. So it's hard to argue islam didn't kill vastly more people than christianity did.

Regardless, communism is dead, and christianity has evolved. That leaves islam still stuck in the 7th century. You can't bullshit your way around that simple fact.

We know what we see with our own eyes and aren't going to disregard that in favor of your Leftwing pussyfutting and standard apologies for the munchkins.

6 "Christianity spread through evangelism, not the sword like islam did."

You're right...the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the forced conversion of native Americans to Christianity...just fun and games, right?

I'm not going to sit here and defend islam (definitely responsible for a great deal of misery the world's seen), but I don't think you can whitewash Christianity's darker moments.

7 ...do you have any idea what the sexual age of consent was in Europe at the time you are criticizing Mohammed..."

Well, I'll admit I don't know, but I would also be willing to say it wasn't nine. Talking about literally robbing the cradle.

As for the deaths caused by jihad, it is incalculable and is still racking up hundreds of thousands every couple of years or so(see Darfur, for example).

8 Venom,

you are ignorant. The inquisition occurred in CHRISTIAN Europe and did not spread christianity, it enforced it. The inquisitors did not constitute vast christian armies but mere individuals. So it should be obvious to anybody but the most obtuse of Leftards how ignorant your example was.

The Crusades also did not spread christianity but attempted to recover previously christian lands that had been conquered by the muslims. Those previously christian lands were christianized by the spreading of the Gospels through evangelism beginning in the 1st century A.D. and coming to an abrupt and grinding halt around the 7-8th century when Mohammedan armies burst from the Arabian peninsula began their global jihad.

9 Carlos, my bad. I meant Spanish conquests (of North America), and for some reason wrote Inquisition. I apologize.

The Crusades, though, is a bit more debatable. I mean, while they were technically about recapture, a lot of violence was done in the name of Christianity. That, I think, it the more fundamental point.

10 Venom,

the history of christianity is a bloody one as well. But just because it doesn't have clean hands doesn't mean you can analogize the two religions. One was founded by a crucified messiah and the other by a sword-bearing prophet. That had real consequences.

The christianizing of South America is a debatable point. Do you have evidence that the indians were forced into christianity at the point of the sword? I doubt it. You should watch "The Mission." It's a true story and represents the christian model of evangelism in the New World.

11 I don't have evidence, of course - just the accepted view the Spanish (among others) came to the Americas looking for gold, and upon encountering the native population, became committed to converting them to Christiantiy - by destroying their pagan idols, by enslaving them, etc.

That being said, I'll keep my eyes open for The Mission.

12 Holy crap. Are we actually debating whether christianity was forced on people at the end of a sword?

How damn ignorant are you? the crusades (there were SEVERAL) were intended in part to wipe out pagans in Europe (some up in Germany, btw). The reconquista part of the second crusade was designed to push back the Moors into Africa (it eventually succeeded). Those who refused to convert or leave were KILLED.

Conversion in Latin America was often at swordpoint or upon threat of enslavement. You are using the MISSION as a historical source? Well, even in that the church is divided between those who want to convert by force and those who do not.

Then there is the long history of pogroms and mass killings of Jews who refused to convert.

Islam's origins were different, and they did have the kind of easy relationship between military and religious authority that has not always been the norm in modern christianity. But plenty of people were converted to Christianity at swordpoint throughout the long bloody history of that religion.

Did you really not know that?

13 It was a trick question, Joe--there was NO age of consent in Christian Europe at the time Mohammed "married" the nine year old (most scholars think that he did not consumate the relationship until menarche). What we today would call child marriage was practiced among many Christians, particularly royalty. And guess what, Joe? The sexual age of consent in DELAWARE was SEVEN.

"Age of consent" referred in the late nineteenth century to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls before they reached the legal age of consent could be found guilty of statutory rape. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was seven. Women reformers and social purists initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen.[1] The campaign ultimately proved very successful; by 1920 almost every state had raised the legal age of consent to either sixteen or eighteen.
**

Above is from
http://www.alexanderstreet6.com/wasm/wasmopen/aoc/intro.htm

Written by three researchers at SUNY Bingham.

The point is, Joe, you and Rusty are using modern definitions of pedophilia to condemn Mohammed, when it is not clear that he consumated it, and even if he did, the same and younger girls were frequently married in Christian societies INCLUDING OUR OWN.

Did you know that?

14 >>>But plenty of people were converted to Christianity at swordpoint throughout the long bloody history of that religion.

No, I did not know that. I don't accept most of what you state as fact to be fact. Show me where "plenty" of people were converted to christianity at swordpoint.

In Latin America the indians were enslaved not by the church but by the seculars (your buddies). Nobody was killed for refusing to convert. I'll stand by that.

If christianity has blood on it's hands you'll notice that it didn't start with its founders but by people thousands of years later who mucked things up. Not so with Islam. Right out of the gate it was a violent religion. And still is.

15 Ah, ragheads are ragheads, even if you take the rag off.
And leftards are assholes all the time.

16 Well Joe christians were still burning witches here in America in the late 1600's which were not the dark ages. As for not being critical of Islam, well there are certainly plenty of people who will do that in my place, I am not sure that one more voice will help in the reform of that religion at this time. But if you think that it will help then OK here goes: I HATE ALL MUSLIMS !! WE SHOULD KILL THEM ALL WITH ATOM BOMBS !!

17 Amazing how leftards continue to compare the distant past with today. Stick up for the enemy of America at any opportunity. That makes them the enemy too.

18 Carlos for over 25 years I was a breeder of dogs, Irish Wolfhounds. They were the first dogs brought to the New World by Columbus. They are now a very gentle breed, but in the time of Columbus they were feared man killers. Please follow this link to see some of the engravings that were done at that time of how the christians treated the Indians.http://www.reformation.org/new-world-holocaust.html

19 Hey, Carlos, check this out if you don't believe it:
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects98/carterp/carterp.html
In 1492, the same year that Columbus would "discover America", the Spanish Catholic Church emerged from several centuries of warfare against the muslims victorious, with immense wealth and authority second only to the crown. The Spanish Monarchy wanted to use the church to achieve a national unity as well as control in the newly discovered American continent. The absolute right of the Spanish kings was to nominate all church officials, collect tithes and found churches and monasteries in America. Pope Julius had awarded this privilege to the Spanish monarchs to assist them in converting New World "heathen".
Accompanying the conquistadors during the initial conquest was a priest that would read a requirimiento to the indians in Latin or Spanish and after this formality the Spaniards were allowed to pillage and plunder. The requirimiento was the only warning the natives had although they could not understand the language and sometimes it was not read in their presence. The document stated that the indians would have to surrender unconditionally or face the consequences of slavery or death. Excerpts from a Requirimiento (the document they read)
"...we will not compel you to become Christians, unless after being so informed regarding the truth, you desire to be converted to our faith..."
"But ...if you do not do this...I will come among you powerfully and make war upon you everywhere and in every way that I can"
"I will take your persons, your women and children, and will make slaves of them and sell them or dispose of them as their Highness shall command"
"...the damage and death which you suffer thereby shall be your own fault and not the fault of their Majesties, nor of mine, nor the knights who accompany me."(Braden,127)


The priests that came to the New World were faced with the enormous job of converting the millions of indians who were at that time worshiping various pagan deities. The priests used several strategies for conversion. Many conversions were forced with the help of Spanish soldiers. Many other conversions didn't last very long with the indians slipping back into their ancient faiths. However the indians that had been converted and relapsed back into their old religions could now be tried as heretics by the inquisition and many were condemned to death.

Do you believe me now, Carlos?

20 rooster,

They are the "reality-based community." Amazing how they'll deny present bloodshed under islam in favor of past bloodshed under christianity. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that islam are little brown munchkins, while christianity is evil whitey, now would it?

21 And rooster whatever happened to your friends from the "Bronx"? the ones that were coming to get me?

22 Rooster--we are only focusing on the past because the claim was made by Rusty that Mohammed was a pedophile. He's wrong, or several Christian societies that led to us were also pedophilic. Then the absolutely gobsmackingly unbelievable claim was made that Christianity didn't convert people at the point of a sword. Were John Ryan and I supposed to go, yup, up is down?

Joe and Carlos, if you still don't believe us, please take a look at these books about Latin America:

Braden, Charles S. Religious Aspects of the Conquest of Mexico

Camp, Roderic. Crossing Swords: Politics and Religion in Mexico 1997

Both should be in any library of decent size, and both are at Amazon.

23 Neither John nor I denied current Islamic bloodshed. That would be stupid and afactual. We were responding to afactual assertions by you and Rusty. There is plenty wrong with Islam without whitewashing the history of Christianity to make you feel superior.

24 And Rusty "next to communism Islam has contributed to more deaths than any other ideology in history" well without going back to far in history my father wasn't fighting either of those 2 ideologies in World War II He was fighting the right wing fascists of Germany and Japan.

25 Yeah, me too, John Ryan. I'll be very curious to see if Dr. Shackleford can back that up in the slightest. It seems a bit of bombastic rhetoric that is beneath him.

26 jd,

I accept your account of how SOME catholics used force to convert SOME indians. But I don't accept that as the norm for how christianity spread. That is most certainly not how it spread into most of the world, and I doubt it was even how it predominantly spread in the Americas.

27 OK, Carlos--on what basis are you basing your belief that most were not converted by force? research? feeling? hope?

How do you think it spread into Germany? Roman might. Into Spain?

Islam was not always promulgated at swordpoint, either. Many millions in world history have chosen it (one could question how much politics/economics played into that--one could say the same about Christianity in many "peaceful" conversions.)

what sources do you offer to back up this belief?

I'm in agreement, by the way, that all or almost all converts to Christianity in the last 30 years have been peaceful, and one could not say the same about Islam.

28 Yes, yes, I know that, jd, but Mohammed married Aisha at age six and consummated the marriage at age nine. Seems pretty young to me for sexual relations, even at that time. But we are talking about people who had harems, multiple wives, concubines, so perhaps it wasn't an every night thing. But Mohammed married the wife of his adopted son Zeid, so what would one expect. But are we always to hold these people to a lower standard, and I'm talking about even today. John Ryan is constantly proposing another few hundred years for the Muslims to become civilized as a society, but I'm afraid we don't have that long until they blow up the World.

29 You know, the Crips vs. Bloods thread from awhile back was way more entertaining, at least with respect to fighting between posters.

Rusty, if you're not going to jump in on this, how about another gang war topic so we can watch? You know, for shits & giggles.

30 Wait, I don't understand, Joe. If you (and, presumably, Rusty) knew that consumating marriage at menarche was a long practice in Semitic culture (including the culture in which Jesus and Moses were raised), and that consumating marriages with very young girls was part of Western practices well into the 19th century (including Delaware's sex consent being 7)...then why is it important that the Prophet did this?

I don't get it. Either you knew, and were being deceitful in using this as a cudgel against Islam, or you didn't know, and are now pretending that you did. Which is it?

Would it be so hard to say--you know, I didn't realize that child brides were present in Europe and even in America as late as the 20th century. I guess, while there are many reasons to oppose various Muslim practices today, calling Mohammed a pedophile as if that wasn't something our own culture used to sanction, is kind of a red herring.

Is that what you are saying?

31 Rusty - 2 months (60 days) is actually extremely moderate by the islamic standards we know - and it will be lite time too! I'm looking at it as a potentially positive sign.

Rusty's thread topic was his personal opinionized view of islam. Why some feel necessary to change the argumentive direction towards Christianity says more about them than about Christianity or islam!

I'm an educated man - I am aware of and can slam Christianity's past as well as or better than most .... but that was not what the topic was about!!! Those who did it ... did it for their own personal reasons and hostilities towards Christianity.

I know the lib/left better than most .... to them personally, islam is a backward primative joke .... but they are deeply afraid of it ... and their multi-cultural relativistic mindset dictates that they outwardly "understand" it ... its how they make themselves feel good about themselves - and superior to the rest of us.

Attacking/confronting Christianity for them is safe, self-delusionally enlightened, and smugly progressive.

Ignore them - I do. If Rusty simply rewrote the thread and substituted something else for islam ... their responses would have been exactly the same. Quite pathetic actually.

32 jd,

I'm not a scholar, but I am a student of history. And christianity at the point of the sword doesn't fit into what I know about world history. That doesn't mean you won't find examples, but I don't believe your example was the norm for the Americas, nor do I believe the Spaniards/Portuguese were the norm for christianity.

You state as fact that "Roman might" imposed christianity on Germany. On what do you base that? Feelings? That isn't historical. It's no more historical than saying "Roman might" spread it to Ireland. Just as christianity was spread to Ireland by Saint Patrick, it was spread to Germany by Saint Boniface. Essentially wandering monks. THAT is typical of how christianity spread.

Islam is a whole nuther story. Muslim armies raced out of Arabia in the 7th century and never looked back.

33 I confess I don't know much about Boniface at all. But I do know Charlemagne converted at sword point in Germany after Boniface.

But let's assume you are mostly right--(although I'm certain you are wrong about the Spaniards in the Reconquista and in latin America, based on impeccable sources)--Islam was primarily sold at the end of a sword. Christianity, by contrast, was only half sold at the end of the sword.

ok, so what? what does that tell us about either religion today? My entire point is that Islam is not backward because of its uniquely bad history. It is backward because of its failure to address modernity the way Christianity did. There is unimaginable evil and brutality in the story of Christianity. Christians who deny this are violating the commandment about not lying. You do not judge the worth of a religion by what happened 700 years ago.

34 When did I say that the natives in the New World were not converted by force? And I'm not here to defend Christianity, but to point out the dangers of Islam. There are plenty of people more knowledgeable about Christianity and its spread in the World than I am.

It is Islam that I am interested in. You all would do well to remember that Persia and Bzyantium were the two superpowers in the World when Mohammed and his followers came riding out of the desert. These two great empires fell to Islam, and Islam conquered by force almost the entire Mediterranean basin.

The Crusades did not begin for 400 years AFTER Christians had been attacked and conquered by the jihad in what is today Israel, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, all of North Africa, Spain, southern France, large parts of Italy, and do I need to go on? The conquests of Afghanistan and India by the Muslims is a whole other subject, but suffice it to say a mountain range in Afghanistan is named after the slaughter. To have a mountain range named for the murder and enslavement of the Hindus and Buddhists says a lot about how great the killings were. This might just be the largest number of people ever killed for religion.

So the Crusades were nothing more than an attempt to retake the Holy Land. Were the Christian soldiers perfect? No. Did they commit atrocities? Absolutely. But to say Islam and Christianity are somehow equal is moral equivalence I don't swollow. But somehow liberals and Leftists do.

35 >>>ok, so what? what does that tell us about either religion today?

jd,

I'll tell you exactly what it tells us. It shows how the blood on christianity's hands isn't built into the religion itself but is rather the result of human failings; while in Islam, forcible jihad IS built into the religion and forcible conversion is not human failing but obedience to their religion. Do a google search on "jihad" "Koran" and "verses" and you'll see how predominant the idea of jihad is in the Koran and Islam. Until you can show me where islam has reformed itself, please don't tell me that it didn't influence how Islam spread in the past, and today.

36 In fact, reading further, I come across a detailed account of Charlemagne's treatment of Saxons--it sounds a lot like how Mohammed treated pagans who wouldn't convert:
Charlemagne was engaged in almost constant battle throughout his reign, with his legendary sword Joyeuse in hand. After thirty years of war and eighteen battles—the Saxon Wars—he conquered Saxonia and proceeded to convert the conquered to Roman Catholicism, using force where necessary.

The Saxons were divided into four subgroups in four regions. Nearest to Austrasia was Westphalia and furthest away was Eastphalia. In between these two kingdoms was that of Engria and north of these three, at the base of the Jutland peninsula, was Nordalbingia.

In his first campaign, Charlemagne forced the Engrians in 773 to submit and cut down the pagan holy tree Irminsul near Paderborn. The campaign was cut short by his first expedition to Italy. He returned in the year 775, marching through Westphalia and conquering the Saxon fort of Sigiburg. He then crossed Engria, where he defeated the Saxons again. Finally, in Eastphalia, he defeated a Saxon force, and its leader Hessi converted to Christianity. He returned through Westphalia, leaving encampments at Sigiburg and Eresburg, which had, up until then, been important Saxon bastions. All Saxony but Nordalbingia was under his control, but Saxon resistance had not ended.

Following his campaign in Italy subjugating the dukes of Friuli and Spoleto, Charlemagne returned very rapidly to Saxony in 776, where a rebellion had destroyed his fortress at Eresburg. The Saxons were once again brought to heel, but their main leader, duke Widukind, managed to escape to Denmark, home of his wife. Charlemagne built a new camp at Karlstadt. In 777, he called a national diet at Paderborn to integrate Saxony fully into the Frankish kingdom. Many Saxons were baptised.

In the summer of 779, he again invaded Saxony and reconquered Eastphalia, Engria, and Westphalia. At a diet near Lippe, he divided the land into missionary districts and himself assisted in several mass baptisms (780). He then returned to Italy and, for the first time, there was no immediate Saxon revolt. From 780 to 782, the land had peace.

He returned in 782 to Saxony and instituted a code of law and appointed counts, both Saxon and Frank. The laws were draconian on religious issues, and the native traditional religion was gravely threatened. This stirred a renewal of the old conflict. That year, in autumn, Widukind returned and led a new revolt, which resulted in several assaults on the church. In response, at Verden in Lower Saxony, Charlemagne allegedly ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxons who had been caught practising paganism after converting to Christianity, known as the Bloody Verdict of Verden or Massacre of Verden. The massacre, which modern research has not been able to confirm, triggered two years of renewed bloody warfare (783-785). During this war the Frisians were also finally subdued and a large part of their fleet was burned. The war ended with Widukind accepting baptism.

Thereafter, the Saxons maintained the peace for seven years, but in 792 the Westphalians once again rose against their conquerors. The Eastphalians and Nordalbingians joined them in 793, but the insurrection did not catch on and was put down by 794. An Engrian rebellion followed in 796, but Charlemagne's personal presence and the presence of loyal Christian Saxons and Slavs quickly crushed it. The last insurrection of the independence-minded people occurred in 804, more than thirty years after Charlemagne's first campaign against them. This time, the most unruly of them, the Nordalbingians, found themselves effectively disempowered from rebellion. According to Einhard:

The war that had lasted so many years was at length ended by their acceding to the terms offered by the King; which were renunciation of their national religious customs and the worship of devils, acceptance of the sacraments of the Christian faith and religion, and union with the Franks to form one people.

***

If you care, he had five wives, one of whom he never divorced while getting the others, one which was annulled. He also had five known concubines.

It would appear to me that Boniface wasn't so successful as you imagine, if Charley had to come along and lop off thousands of heads (damn heathens) before there was a Christian Germany.

You can remain believing that Christianity was mostly spread peacefully. Many people need to believe things.

37 OK, I think you make a good point. It makes it easier for pacifists within Christianity to point out that Christ was never armed, he was never part of a government, and never executed anyone or led any troops. I think this history allowed liberal forces within Christianity to eventually moderate those who favored swordpoint conversion and wars against non-Christians. This may help explain exactly why Islam has never gone through a reformation, and why individual liberty and limited government emerged in Christian societies first, and has found its strongest roots there.

Good point, Carlos, and well put.

38 jd,

I tip my hat to your intellectual honesty. You have thereby earned a large measure of credibility points for the future.

;-)

39 I don't think Christianity is superior to Islam in its history prior to 1900. I doubt that Rusty can support his claim about numbers of dead, for example, when you add in colonialism. I also don't think the Crusades were all about reclaiming the holy lands. Some domestic extermination of pagans went on in the 2nd Crusade, and others.

But today? no contest. The treatment of women under most interpretations of Islam is an obscenity. The way I like to put it to liberals is this: if Saudi Arabia treated blacks the way it treats women, you would demand sanctions, as you did against South Africa....

Of course, many liberals are open to that argument. It is the oil companies who could never give up our saudi friends...

40 Well, it was a good discussion. I learned a lot about Boniface, Charlemagne, Aisha, the sexual age of consent in Delaware in 1894...now, back to work.

41 I hope Venom got enough shit and giggles to satisfy his taste for same. And jd, you are more the classical liberal rather than the Leftist, as you are able to use logic and history to make your points rather than invective. I would not like to come up against you in my old debate class, I'll tell you that.

42 And hondo, not only do you know your liberals, but you know your Euros and you know your New Orleans, too. I need to pay up on that debt I owe you. Micky D's for breakfast on me, hondo, with my kindest regards. Let me know where to send the money.

43 Just trying to lighten the mood, jj.

As it turns out, wasn't necessary. Good stuff by both Carlos & jd.

But I still think Rusty should put up another Crips vs. Bloods thread.

44 You want a mid-week caption contest instead, Venom?

45 >>>And jd, you are more the classical liberal rather than the Leftist,

Most of us on this blog are classical Liberals. Today that's what we call 'conservative.' While most (but not all) Liberals today are actually Leftists. They just don't know it.

46 Sorry to get in on the conversation late, but since even the late period fathers of the Christianity (eg, Augustine) indicate that church/state union came late to Christianity--at least 300 years after Jesus movement began--then your analysis, J.D., is quite off.

47 Uh, macktastick? I don't think my analysis falls under the astounding common knowledge contribution you make to the discussion. Christians weren't in control of a polity until that time. They were a heavily persecuted minority for much of their early years. And when they got in power, they promptly started to persecute minorities and convert on the point of the sword. That's not because Christianity as a doctrine is flawed--it was just what most/all religions in that period did.

48 I've got my own little fatwa-worthy production up, in response to the Terrorstinians.

http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/179355.php

49 Rusty,

You said: "Nowhere in the Islamic world is there anything that passes for freedom of speech. Nowhere."

On the contrary, the free press is flourishing in...Iraq.

50 If we're going to argue about how who treated who, every religion and culture is guilty of ill treatment and yes, out right murder in the past. However, and I know this has no bearing on Rusty's, Carlos' and jd's arguments regarding the mindset or acceptability of certain behaviors in the past or who forced what religion on what people, but in this day and age the kind of behavior we see by the most violent of people trying to bring about some long past forseen "prophesy" is totally unacceptable by the vast majority of the world. There is no excuse for it any more.

All in the same breath we can well use today's standards to judge Muhammed all we want. I've read in too many books how men like Muhammed and others who had sex with children, no matter the legality, were described as a lecher. Even then moral people were creeped out by such behavior. It was merely not illegal. And more often children were married off to other children when royalty was involved for the purpose of maintaining good relationships between nations. In other instances female children were married off to older men simply because they were burdens to the family. They couldn't pull a plow. And the older man, who was usually more financially endowed, was able to satify his lust for prepubescent girls while the girl's family shed their burden and gain a prominent ally. The need for that outweighed the disgust for such men.

And if I had my druthers, if I had to choose between the two religions (which I won't), I'd go with the nice guy who preached love and chastity rather than the guy who drooled at the thought of having sex with a nine year old in between ordering his army to kill everyone and take their stuff. But that's just me.

51 That's me, too, Oyster. Well written, well written, indeed!

52 Vinnie,

That would be awesome. Bluto's dropped the ball this week.

Help me Vinnie, you're my only hope...

53 Please follow this link to see some of the engravings that were done at that time of how the christians treated the Indians.

john ryan,

from your own link:


"As has been said, the Spaniards train their fierce dogs to attack, kill and tear to pieces the Indians. It is doubtful that anyone, whether Christian or not, has ever before heard of such a thing as this."

Obviously, according to your own source, christians weren't even aware of such practices by conquistador thugs.

54 Singling out how Christians treated Indians without mentioning how Indians treated Indians is not quite being totally honest. Indian tribes, American and otherwise, practiced genocide, slavery and all maner of atrocities against other Indian tribes all the time. They attacked each other and regularly killed all the men and took the women and children as slaves or simply incorporated them into their own tribe to build their numbers. And sometimes they just plain out slaughtered the entire tribe.

This is not to say it's an excuse for others doing it against them because it's always been wrong no matter who the aggressors are. I'm just rounding out the story a little better by not equivocating.

55 Oyster,

notice also that it was a CHRISTIAN MONK (de Las Casas) who was recounting the atrocities in protest that they were happenning. He was trying to raise awareness about it! lol!

Nice try, john.

56 Notice also that Rusty's topic attacked islam .... AND NOBODY DEFENDED IT!!!!! (actually, I did partially)

Instead the usual suspects attacked Chritianity with the "OH Yeah! Well how about those ..." argument - an argumentive approach none of us would accept from a child.

Pretty much shows you where their heads are at.

57 >>>Pretty much shows you where their heads are at.

Their heads are "reality-based", no?

58 Oyster--I agree 100% that we should not ignore the fact that the Aztecs and other native Americans were brutal in ways that can scarcely be imagined today, just as the Christians were to them. We, the West, have been romanticizing the "noble savage" from Rousseau to Dances with Wolves, with Margaret Mead in between.

However, I don't think your at all accurate about child marriage in antiquity or Middle Ages, or even early modern period. Child to child marriage among royalty may be what we know best if we know anything about it at all, but girls of menarche age to adult marriages were so widely tolerated in this country up until 100 years ago that when we got around to codifying it, it was set at 7 in delaware, at 10 and 12 in other states. If you read the article I linked to, it was a class based anger that finally got the law changed, as you do suggest.

But the broader truth is--we have extended adolescence far beyond the limits of 1000, 1250, or even 1920. One became an adult at marriage on the American frontier. Some girls were married at 10, and had three children by 16 or 17. Their husbands might be 40, or they might be 15 at marriage. One reason for marrying young was the absolute ban on premarital sex (although not as observed as you might think). The other was the short lifespan. When the lifespan was 40 or so, it made sense to marry before 20. Long before 20. Also, the high number of women who died in childbirth led to many marriages of 15 year old girls to 55 year old men on their third or fourth wives.

Many things that today would cause us disgust were common. If they could see our century, though, it would shock the bejeesus out of 19th century Americans how we have infantilized 16, 20, and 24 year olds. A 16 year old woman might have been a pillar of society in 1850 with 2 kids. A 22 year old "girl" today is usually still dependent on her parents for her finances, and if she marries a 50 year old, society deeply frowns on him.

(Grover Cleveland married a woman decades younger than him, while he was president. I think she was 19, and he was in his 50s. She was among the most beautiful women of her day. Imagine that happening today? Sexual morals rapidly evolve.)

59 I understand your points, jd. But I don't think people's feelings have actually changed as much as you might think in the arena of what is considered a prepubescent child and when that line begins to be blurred. And I agree wholeheardedly that in this modern day we coddle our "children" far beyond what they should be and give them the same status as a 9 year old even when they're in their late teens/early twenties and should be acting like young adults shouldering responsibility for more even than just their own actions. It's really ridiculous. I call it the feminization of the world. Yuk.

But beyond that, men in past times who wed or bed children, I mean 'prepuscent children', were always on the edge of acceptability. Convenience and necessity often overrode individual morality and all sorts of justifications ensued. When you speak of 55 year old men wedding 19 or 20 year old women it cannot be even remotely compared to a 55 year old man bedding a 9 year old child because she started her period a little earlier than most girls. And there is recorded documentation I've read that girls indeed did mature physically earlier then than now. But only by a year or two at most. The average age for girls now is 13. centuries ago it was closer to 11 or 12. Age 9 has always been extremely young. We won't even get into emotional maturity.

I think what you're doing is taking exceptional circumstances and depicting them as a norm. In early America and even in earlier Europe, wealthy families generally strove to get their female children educated first. They went to the finest schools, segregated of course, but educated nonetheless. Girls of wealthier families were not nearly as often subjected to forced marriage to men old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers. When they did it was to unite two prominent families and the girl almost always hated it and the man certainly loved it. Most of the child brides were of poorer families. It was based more on necessity and convenience due to the lack of financial means to do things differently.

100 years ago and more in this country the "age of consent" was sometimes vague. Consent was given by parents in writing if the child was 'underage' and they were often part of an unrecorded promise of money or goods from the male's family or he himself. Generally the age of consent, ie. without parental consent, was 14 for males and 12 for females. And even that was pushed to be abolished and changed to 17 for males and 14 for females by the mid 1800s in many states. Your example of 7 years old for Delaware was certainly not the norm. You can't take the most extreme of circumstances and pretend that "well everyone was doing it" because that's simply not the case.

60 I don't think I'm saying "everyone was doing it". I'm saying that sexual morals evolve with stunning rapidity. they don't always move to more licentiousness, they shift around in unpredictable ways. Also, the level of social control was remarkably less for most of European history; the legal code was personalized, not codified, and susceptible to wide interpretation, and many aspects of behavior were not regulated at all. Marriage was one of them. We err gravely when we imagine that our ancestors were like us without investigation whether this was true.

I have consistently read, also, that due to good diet, girls are reaching menarche much earlier today than ever before. Some lefties also attribute the rapid drop in age of first menstruation to the presence of hormones in our food. I don't know if that's moonbat shit crazy, but no one is contesting that girls aren't menstruating much earlier on average.

there's a very interesting book on the subject of evolving sexual norms, by Foucault, called The History of Sexuality. In it, he argues that homosexuality was invented in the 1870s. Wait, don't laugh. What he means is the idea of the homosexual as a distinctive scientific class, as an identity, first arrived in western consciousness at that time. A behavior became an "other", an identity. The same argument is made about race: that "whiteness" as a separate identity did not exist in the ancient world, and only came into being in the 16th and 17th centuries, as the new rationalistic vision of science turned upon itself, upon man.

What I'm trying to do is suggest that our current categories (legal age of sex, for example) are distinctly arbitrary in a broad historical sense. We experience moral outrage, apparently, when a 55 year old marries a 16 year old. That would be a laughable concept to someone 150 years ago. But I agree with you that 9 was probably the very rare exception in early modern history. It would not have been criminal though in the medieval Europe that was contemporaneous with Mohammed, and it was not unknown, at all. therefore, it is just a cheap political stunt, propaganda, and manufactured outrage to call Mohammed a "pedophile". That has been my point all along.

61 God! The American Indian thing again. ALL THOSE UNHAPPY WITH THE INDIAN THING SHOULD SHOW SOME CLASS AND MOVE BACK TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

Leftards still believe what the Christians did 500 years ago has something to do with what the muslims are doing today. You leftards have appartently forgiven the Mongels, Huns, Goths, Arabs, Commies, etc. Why can't you forgive the Christians? Because you are sick and it doesn't suit your leftist, anti-American views does it.

62 Wish I could draw. I'd show some good cartoons of the pig eating goat fucker.

63 jd, we're obviously reading different studies on female maturity. ;-)

64 Oops Sorry. That was me.