1 Same arguments I heard in '86. Government said only 1 million would come forward for amnesty. Over 3 million showed up.

2 I'm with MCPO. Illegals will rush to get this like hamsters to bread. Like Paris Hilton to cameras. You make being illegal sound great. Truth is, being legal is their dream, the way I see it. You don't have to worry about getting in trouble, and getting deported. (Whether it is a realistic fear or not, it is a widely felt one--like your fear of being killed by islamofascists for blogging, only much more realistic). You can vote, and qualify for federal benefits. You have clear and obvious rights. And--you get paid a lot more, and can unionize. Employers can't rip you off quite so easily. A lot of illegals get hired for a day, a week, a month, and then--guess what? Don't get paid, because their employer knows that there is no way to enforce an illegal contract.

So yeah, they'll take this with both hands, and pay $2K, whatever it takes.

I think the key is, secure the border, or another 12 million come. Whatever it takes. Build a wall if necessary. But we cannot have an unmonitored, uncontrolled border, not after 9-11 most especially. A long hard road to earned citizenship is the only solution for the 12 million already here (if for no other reason than millions of them have US citizens who are children...can they all stay at your house after you deport their parents?)

3 Every last illegal immigrant I know wants in, because they *do* actually pay taxes (those that do not work in contractor jobs such as construction, at least,) and their work status (read: their employment) is tenuous at best.

Every last illegal, that I know at least, is pursuing avenues to citizenship here, not just being a 'guest worker.' So that might be something to consider as well.

4 jd, I recently received my fourth death threat. Your continued stupid remarks about this issue is why I continue to place you in my "dumbass" commenter category, but I do make some allowance because you're still young and foolish enough to think yourself immortal.

A couple of brushes with death might cure you of this naivetè.

5 This is really good reading on the history of the initial amnesty of 1986 and how it's been extended and expanded trough 2000.

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty_print.html

6 MCPO Airdale: That may just prove that the government wildly underestimated the number of illegal aliens here in '86. I've heard estimates as high as 30 million for the true number here today.

MiB: You'll forgive me if I take your comments with a large grain of salt; you being an obvious supporter of the corrupt Mexican government and all, and having virtually no loyalty to the US...

There's another related unasked question: everyone assumes that illegals send half or more of their salaries to Mexico to support families there, but many are, in fact, building savings accounts for themselves so that they can eventually return and live the life of luxury. How large is this faction?

7 I just recieved my 4500th penis enlargement ad over email, DPB. I think it is as likely that my trouser snake becomes porn star size as you are in any danger whatsoever. (It's very close as it is, of course...)

You raise a good point about the estimate of illegals could have been off in 1986, and could well be off today. It's what Rummy would call a "known unknown." But I still think legal status is the holy grail for most immigrants. There will be an initial convincing period, but the leadership of the community will do that.

As for saving for palatial residences for "themselves". WPost did a great series about El Salvador, and how many immigrants are building "palaces" for themselves back home (that cost 30 to 90K to build, a fortune down there). But I don't know how you can distinguish between Jose who saves to build his famiy a home, and Jesus who saves to build "himself" one. He gets to live in it, either way.

Unless you meant building savings accounts HERE? to live the life of luxury here? I consider that unlikely. 90K doesn't buy too much house in most of America, and you need to make a lot more to get by. When I was in Mexico last month, I heard about a lot of Americans who retire down to border areas of Mexico, because you can live like a king on 10K or 20K a year. And you can hire someone to clean your house, be your nurse, for even cheaper in Mexico than you can get illegals in America.
Of course, you are signing up to live under a capricious government corrupt beyond the worst days of Chicago...

8 I agree. They will not come forward. They already have what they want, our jobs, free education, free healthcare, and many other government benefits thanks to American socialists and do-gooders....

The U.S. anchor baby policy guarantees that this will never change.......

At least they can't vote. And NEVER should. Let them go home to vote for Vicente (the liar) Fox, and lock the door when they leave.

9 The speech was very clear: from now on, any foreigner willing to go legally in the United States in order to work there will have to communicate his fingerprints while entering the country.They will have to subject themselves to these procedures, formerly only imposed to criminals and to spies, not to immigrants and visitors, and even less to citizens.
Indeed, Bush said in his addresses on Immigration Reform:

“A key part of that system [for verifying documents and work eligibility of aliens] should be a new identification card for every legal foreign worker. This card should use biometric technology, such as digital fingerprints, to make it tamper-proof.”

The proposal launched by president Bush to deploy the National Guard at the Mexican border and to introduce sophisticated electronic devices is only part of a brilliant communication strategy. Its actual function is not to protect the border, but to direct public attention far from the true reform set in motion by the Bush Administration: biometric security.

http://www.magmareport.net/biometrics.html

10 http://www.soundpolitics.com/archives/006027.html

If you do not think urban democrats are registering and allowing illegal's to vote think again. The last Governor's election was stolen by the dems by a 124 vote margin. How many aliens voted? The polls in King county are run and administered by the dem machine. You can walk in to a precinct and get a provisional ballot and not even be on the voting rolls. Over 50,000 were counted in King County in the 2004 election.

11 jd, do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? Why bother? The odds are vanishingly small that you will get in a car accident at any given time.

I suggest you lead by example by posting your real name, phone number, and both your George Mason University and home addresses. I won't follow suit, but at least you won't look like such a phony hypocrite.

12 I don't trust this government, I don't care which party is in power, to be thorough and discriminatory enough. They are never efficient nor thorough.

Furthermore, I'm concerned that in the meantime, while congress is trying to one-up each other on who is the most compassionate to those who are here illegally in order to secure their votes when and if they become citizens (it's just disgusting to watch them), they are rushing the border in record numbers to get here and take advantage of the situation. How quickly can the National Guard get deployed to the border and get it secured? Judging by everything else the government does, nothing significant will be done for months.

Just watch these congress critters. They won't just extend this "sort-of-amnesty" to the workers and their families who are here, but their families in Mexico as well. This means spouses, children and parents. This whole deal will be handed to them on a silver platter and we can take the number of those who do "go for the deal" and multiply it by four or more.

13 The government has draged it's heels for over 35 years on this issue alone. It will now talk about doing things like building part of a fence to calm folks down. But, what will really happen is soon there will not longer be Canada, United States, or Mexico. There will be a North American Trade area. This is what Bush, and the other memebers of the CFR are working so hard to make happen.

14 One of the things that many don't understand is what do the illegals want. You might be surprised to know they don't want to live here. The vast majority of illegals I know, yes that's many, are sending over half the money they earn back to Mexico for deposit in accounts so they can buy a house there and raise a family.

It really is all about the money. If there were decent jobs in Mexico they would have never came in the first place.

15 Bluto: "Blah blah you support the mexican government blah blah"

Man, you're really reaching, aren't you? Now that you've got absolutely nothing you have to blanantly make stuff up.

You belong in the democratic party, Bluto, you'd be in good company.

16 Just read that the senate passed 370 miles of fence construction. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!! good fences will make much better neighbors.

17 You've had four death threats and I only got one?

Bastard!

18 I don't post my addresses just because I like posting anonymously, not because I think I'm in any danger. Hell, I think IM has threatened to liquidate me on several occasions. I haven't upped my insurance. Deep down, I know he's really a sweet old guy.

Driving kills more Americans than just about anything. If you show me where islamofascists have killed Americans for blogging, I'll take it seriously.

But this immigration debate is getting interesting! I don't think they get "free health care" anymore than poor Americans do. That means, yes, if you have emergency medical needs, it's paid for. But if you injure yourself building a house in a non-OSHA worksite, you don't get anything. You don't get dental, you don't get chronic, you don't get check ups. You don't get treatment on a regular basis (there are free charity clinics, but hey, that's those damn Christians screwing everything up again!)

Illegals get very few government benefits, and it is largely determined by the state electorate. Plyler v. Doe did say their children had the right to a public school education, and while I support a massive wall if necessary, I also support educating the ones who are already here. Otherwise, we'll end up like France.

19 jd: cowardly hypocrite.

MiB: you think Republicans should be in favor of open borders, as you are? Are you retarded?

20 I just saw two families of illegal aliens. I want to help the poor, but we have enough poor in this country already without increasing the load.

Check out the Heritage fondation web site, and subject on who uses welfare the most.

21 NO U

Yawn. You're a supposedly grown man, Bluto, act your age. Name calling is the last refuge of a man with no argument.

22 You know, jd, I strongly support education of these kids, but often the parents negate all of it by not caring enough to become involved or encouraging them. And it's not just a problem with the illegals.

The hard part is simply teaching foreign children to communicate fluently and many schools are working against us in that regard. They're mandating that the teachers be bilingual and have classes accomodating them without the bother of teaching much if any English.

That's the biggest barrier we face with the children. Parents often don't encourage them and every day they go home to a household where not a word of English is spoken. There's no motivation.

23 Only 4 death threats ? I live in Manhattan on 105th Street I get that many each week over parking spaces. Bluto if someone really wanted to kill you why would they wish to warn you ? Just to make it more sporting ?

24 Oyster, I agree that bilingual education is a problem when it works the way you describe. But that type of bilingual education is on the way out, all across the country. You know who is its greatest opponent? Immigrants. They don't want their kids handicapped, economically. They want them speaking English. They want them to be better off than they are. It's tough for them to say it to us, perhaps, because their English sucks, but that's what I've been told. I used to teach English to immigrants, from ages 15-72! The enthusiasm was unbelievable. They didn't want bilingualism--they wanted English.

The transition points from partial immersion to total immersion get shorter all the time. In my county, the only bilingual schools have huge waiting lists--because native parents want their kids to grow up knowing two languages, and the best way to do that is learn it before you are ten.

And if you look at anti-immigration literature from the 1870s, 1890s, 1920s...they said the same thing about Italians, about my own Jews and Yiddish, about Germans...yet all those groups lost their language in two generations. Mexicans are present in greater numbers, as ONE group. They are also bordering their mother country. They also have a large population of non-Mexican spanish speakers. For all these reasons, you are right to be more concerned about it than they were in 1870 about Yiddish. But I believe, in the end, that the force of English, in culture, in economics, in politics, will inevitably win. If you only speak Spanish, it is condemning yourself to lower salary and fewer cultural and romantic choices. In fifty years, many of the children of immigrants will have pretty poor Spanish. In seventy, their grandchildren will be true Americans--monolingual!

I went to a high school where SEVENTY languages were spoken. English kicked all the other languages' asses. It's winning world wide, it will win in Tucson and Los Angeles and even, someday, in Miami.

25 Well, regardless of what anyone else says or does, I'm heading down to the border in a little over two weeks to spend a week with the Minutemen. I intend to do everything in my power to stop these illegals from entering the US. We need more. It's time for lazy Americans to get off our asses and stop this crap, because the government isn't about to do it.

I have a concealed carry license valid in Texas and I am going armed. I will protect myself. I will protect my country. It is time to stop this invasion, and this is truly an invasion, no one can question that. It must stop. And we have the power to stop it. Now.

26 This whole charade is making me want to wretch. We have a president so stupid that he actually thought a provision in a previous immigration bill requiring aspiring citizens to "promise to be upstanding citizens" would work. Probably work as well as the enticements to pay back taxes and be tracked 24/7. What imbecile is coming up with these hairbrained ideas?

27 You're correct jd. But that's why the flow has to slow down. I grew up just outside of Miami. There are areas there where no one, absolutely no one, speaks English still. Many of these areas have the most crime and the least income. I grew up with lots and lots of Cubans and Seminole Indians. I lived in Key West for ten years after that with a large population of Cubans. I found that those in Key West "all" spoke English and I would confidently say that it was because the mix was really mixed. There isn't a "Cuban neighborhood" in Key West. Everyone deals with everyone else. Total immersion is the key.

Yet in Miami they holed up in separate communities and effectively cut themselves off from the rest of the population creating their own subculture and standards. Cops HAVE to be bilingual, teachers HAVE to be bilingual and yet, they don't apply the same standard to themselves. Their children are bilingual, but as long as the influx of immigrants exceeds the rate of true integration those neighborhoods remain cut off.

I've worked with a Mexican guy just this past couple years who has a green card. After two years he still won't speak
English, he won't even try. A word here, a word there, but that's all. I introduced him to a friend I know who teaches ESL and hooked him up with free instruction with my friend. He wouldn't show up. He's now had two DUIs as well. After two years he is still washing dishes. He works like a dog and we would gleefully upgrade him to a cook's position so he could make more money, but as long as he can't speak or read English, it won't happen. He can damn sure calculate his paycheck though and act indignant with much waving of arms as he learned one phrase, "More money!" The fact is, we don't pay him slave wages and he makes more that the other dishwashers because he works so hard. Eventually he quit and went elsewhere for work. He was back in my office last week trying to communicate that he wanted his job back. I didn't have room for him and had to tell him no. And yet I still worry about him.

28 Fascinating and very real story, Oy. I agree that we need to control our borders, stop illegal immigration as fast as possible. If it takes a militarized border, so be it. I'm not for deporting the 12 million who are here, but I'm for making it impossible for another 12 million to come.

Nowhere on earth does a nation as rich as the USA border a nation as poor as Mexico. Nowhere. And the countries to the south of Mexico are significantly poorer. If we don't control this border, we are in for a downward wage spiral. And that's just one of many problems.

29 u clearly need mental help. grow the fuck up

30 Hey Oyster. How you doing. I to went thru the Me am ee experience. I have a home on Coral Reef Drive (153rd SW) near the zoo entrance. After, four years in Me am ee I noticed my children speaking with an accent. No wonder. I went to the school and found that my kids English teacher spoke with a heavy hispanic accent. Moved back to Northern California were I found that Two Rock elementary school was badly in need of funds. Why? Because they had to hire spanish speaking interpreters for illegals who couldn't speak English. It's everywhere, it's everywhere.
Hiding in Mississippi. Katrina, Mexican workers everywhere. Is it going to happen here too. MUSLIMS IDIOTS, LIBERAL IDIOTS. What the hell is happening?
Illegal works steals social security card and illegally works for a few years and gets social security benefits for life. Social Security going bankrupt.
Illegal dies. Eleven kids in Mexico get Social Security from United States. Ahhhhhhh!!!!!
Our enemies are right. We are stupid.

31 Much to my chagrin I was between jobs and standing in a long line with " South of the Borderians " at the employment office in Miami. A clerk came to another window an uttered something in Espano~l. As dozens of Cubans and Hispanics rushed to line up at the window, the clerk repeated in Englisa: " This window is now open ". I found myself at the end of the line, again.
Start getting used to reading road signs in Spanish/English. Not long after that you will read Spanish/Arabic/English signs. Coming to a local highway near you!

32 Hey Rooster. I know exactly where you're at. Haven't been back to spend much time in South Florida, or Miami for that matter for many, many years, but I go to Key West every year for the mini bug season. My brother lives in Hollywood very close to our old home.

Since you've talked at length about the Katrina victims and who's helping rebuild and who isn't, I've been listening to a lot of news reports about the rise in crime in cities which have offered refuge to many of those who fled New O and decided to stay in their new host cities. Even here in Jacksonville, our crime has risen notably and the murder rate has doubled. A lot of the churches here tried to do the right thing and offer housing and help to Katrina evacuees and I think now we're being bitten in the ass for it.

33 NO is a cesspool which God tried to wipe off the map. It is evil city. Evil people are drawn there like magnets, attempting to outdo whatever the last horrific crime was. NO is surely the Devil's playground. Happens to be below sea level. Now their evil spawn have scattered amongst their host cities, bringing their evil with them.

34 The mayor of the chocolate city ray (dipshit)negin says agrees that God destroyed New Orleans. However, he has publicly announced that God did it because of the war in Iraq. AND this idiot was just reelected buy people more backward that the Iraqis.
Walking the back streets of Bagdad is not as dangerous as walking the back streets of NO.