1 I think I missed something.  What's the beef between Jawa Report and Debbie?

2 any muslim woman who wears this terrorist uniform should have it ripped off her in public.

why do we cater to these subhumans when our boys are dying in Iraq?

3 Northern Cross: Well you missed a lot.  It all started one day when Debbie said something to the effect of Hostages held by murderous terrorist in Iraq deserved it. Or somthing like that.  Taht if they go slowly beheaded it was thier own fault.  I believe it was the CPT hostages at the time.  We disagree with CPT and a lot fo what thay have siad since.  Like refusal to testify against head chopping terrorists.  But even though they are idiots nobody deserves to be beheaded.

4 i disagree.  Debbies stance was correct.  Not only were they performing anti American activities they knowingly went to a very dangerous situation.

they would have deserved any beheading they got.  not to mention traitors should get nothing less than a very painful death.

5 The Times has learnt that British immigration officers rarely carry out a visual check to match a passport photograph with a departing female passenger’s veiled face.
 
We can't find Bin Laden because he is flying around PC protected Europe in a dress and veil. Dude is probably getting frequent flyer miles and feeling funky in his own bad gay little way.
 
Liberalism with it's slavish devotion to political Correctness will kill us all.

6 I like Debbie S.  I don't understand why the animosity.  So you had a disagreement.  Big deal.

The Anonymouse link is lame.  C'mon Howie.  Grow some stones and put up a proper link so Debbie knows where the traffic is coming from.

You guys need to get over it and move on.  Conservatism is big enough to include both of you and the urgency of our national situation demands unity, not intramural squabbling.  What are we, Liberals?  Sheesh!

7 Mustaf Jama needs the surgery to go with his fashion choice. I got some power tools in the shop that we could use. It works out that I'm OK with revenge, and punishment that fits the crime.

Also, I must say I like Debbie, even if the remarks about the hostages were wrong. I have the same problem with Coulter sometimes, and usually end up letting it go.

Does my comment smack of hypocracy? Do I care at the moment? And what size, and type drill bit would you use to give Mustaf Jama, a new hole to poop through?

Why am I thinking of the ending to 'Mad Max'? It seems so very proper right now.

I support giving Debbie full chops as an anti-terror asset. Blame her comments from before on frustration over the stupidity of some Americans, and lets get on with fighting the real enemy. My opinion ...

USA, all the way!

8 It's worth mentioning that the possibility of this bloke having dressed up as his sister to escape is simply one line of police enquiry. To put it another way - pure conjecture. Portraying it as fact is half-assed and lazy.

9
 I still say we take the wraper off any veiled chicks over 6 feet.
 
OK Joe,He may have slid out many ways, but the scary thing is the Times report that says no one looks under the veils.

It makes me laugh to think of some clerk asking for ID, looking at the picture, then back to the completely wrapped face, ,..."OK, move along ,boarding has begun.......next."

 

10 Ain't multi-cultism great!  Yippeeee!  Remember, diversity is strength! 

11 The day is rapidly approaching when the purveyors of multi-culturalism will have a Hobson's choice. I eagerly await that day.

12 I would rather think first critically about any media reporting before jumping to conclussions.

It is amazing how ideology blinds some guys here.

First, some guys blame the victim. Regardless of Debbie's stances should we all condemn her criminal act.

Second, how do you know Mustaf was a good Muslim? Similar criminal events happen all the time in America. Brutal cop killing is committed by Non-Muslims all the time by Non-Muslims. Why politicize it so much when the culprit has a Muslim name? Killing an innocent person regardless of his faith is a one of the seven biggest sins in Islam. In fact, it is mentioned in the Qura;an that killing one person is like killing all humans!

Third, in the UK, I personaly know that women in niqab are checked for identity. in Islam, women in niqab are required to show their faces for identity check. In fact, it is a sin not check them as this might harm society. In all Muslim countries these women are respectfully checked. Thus, I am very suspicious about this reporting that this suspect used niqab to escape, but is possible. Even it happened, we should blame the person at the airport who did not do his/her job rather than blaming Muslim women.

13 A criminal is a criminal. It does not matter what religion he belongs to. Women who are veiled dress that way because of their culture. Does any here think that these Muslim women never show their face? That is simple ignorance! They willingly show their face all the time: at banks, hopitals, airports, etc. This a normal procedure.

14 Templar Knight

You wrote:"killing, raping, enslaving the kuffar is halal"!

I wrote "killing an innocent person regardless of his faith is one of the 7 biggest sins in Islam?" What is your evidence? who can be the fair judge between these two opposing statements? The source of knowledge about Islam is the Koran and authentic Hadith, not hearsay, not biased media, not streotyping! My statement is supported by the Quran. If you want for information I can provide.

15 Yes, but killing, raping, and enslaving the kuffir is halal, yonis. No serious punishment is proscribed by the Koran and its interpreters for such acts. As a matter of fact, if a Muslim is killed for doing the aforementioned things, perhaps it was his personal jihad, and a quick trip to Heaven is the reward.

16
Let us distinguish between the teachings of Islam as a religion followed by more than oe-fifth of humanity and the behavior of Muslims as fallible human beings.
For example, all Muslims “should” believe in Jihad but as it is established in the authentic sources of Islam. However, specific groups of people might claim to be practicing that concept but wrongly construing it. Unfortunately, the term Jihad became a politically hard currency term! So, what is the “official” religious meaning of Jihad and what is its purpose.
A short clarification of the meaning of Jihad from Islam's authentic sources is in order.
Jihad is from the Arabic word Juhd which means effort. Jihad that means giving effort (any considerable and sincere effort)in good causes (causes in line with the ultimate purpose of life in Islam which is to live according the way of life that God wants).
Fighting oppression is only one example of jihad. Interestingly, Muslims were not allowed to fight back for the majority of Prophet's life time when they were oppressed at the hands of Meccans. It was only when they migrated to Medina after 13 years under oppression that they were allowed to fight back:
"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them" (Qura'an, 22:39)
"Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered" (Qura'an, 22:39)

Obviously, the purpose of fighting type jihad is only for self-defense and as a last resort. It is to uphold freedom of worship. Why the propogandists in the West fail to tell the world that fighting type jihad was permitted in Islam to protect churches, synagogues, and their worshipers as they above verifiable Qura'anic verse says explicitly! It is amazing how people can mislead themselves.
From the Islamic point of view, when human equality is not respected and rights are violated, oppression occurs. Discrimination, exploitation and abuse are forms of oppression.
As mentioned earlier, pious people are supposed to revolve around the guidance of God on an assigned path without violating others' rights. Just like a runaway celestial body which gets out of its course would create havoc in the physical environment, so oppression creates conflict and disharmony in the social environment. In fact, oppression is the antonym of Islam because it is against all that Islam stands for. Thus, God prohibited Himself from oppressing His creatures and forbade them to oppress one another. God says:
“I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another.” (authentic hadith Qudsi).
Thus, one cannot be a Muslim and be practicing or accepting of oppression at the same time. Jihad applies whether the person herself is the victim of oppression or a fellow human being is in an oppressive situation. Further, several principles apply: 1) Muslims are instructed to stay on course and not let oppressors derail them from righteousness; 2) The oppressed need to avoid internalizing oppression by maintaining the awareness that God honours the righteous and the oppressor humiliates himself in the sight of God; 3) Muslim’s seek God's help while responding to oppression because God has promised to support the oppressed.
A word of caution about online hadiths: Complex science governs how authentic, acceptable, or fabricated, etc. hadiths are classified and judged. Please do not rely on sources that do not provide that critical judgment.

17 Thanks Joe Public,
 
The articles I ran off and looked at seemed to be pretty certain that the disquise was his ticket out. I guess we will have to wait a bit.
 
Thanks yonis,
 
We still have a pretty big problem with political correctness, and it does impair law enforcement. No pat downs of Burqa girls.
 
Also, my reading of the Hadith, so far shows a strong concept of the innocent being Muslims, and never infidels. The Hadith also reveal text indicating that all other sins are forgiven/ignored for one who goes forth to wage Jihad. I'm still reading.
 
I like that you see this as murder, and that it doesn't seem 'good' to you, but to many Muslims, some of them quite vocal in the UK, only the killing of Muslims counts as murder. The rest is justified retaliation for whatever crimes we are imagined to be guilty of.
 
I am an Idealist, but I came to where I am by fair means, and I feel I've earned my opinion by making the effort to get as much information as I can. I admit, I don't know everything, but nobody really does, do they?
 
Take care all ...
 
USA, all the way!

18 Thanks Michael Weaver:

In Islam, there are two types of innocence:

1)Innocence from sin. That is no human being's business. Only God judges. But is stated in the Quran that the only sin that God (not humans)does not forgive is Shirk or associated of gods with God. God will only forgive when they stop.

2) Innocence from crime. There is no difference between Muslims and non-Muslims on this. Justice is for all. Jihad has nothing to do with this. Muslims are required to respect the law of the land in which they live.

I hope this clarifies the concept of innocence in Islam that you raised.

As for the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. Like any other societies, there are two types:

1. Kindness, justice, brotherhood, and collaboration for the good of humanity. That is for non-Muslims who are not waging war against Muslims. The verse below is the source:

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice." (Qura'an 60:00 .


2. No friendship. That is for those who wage war against Muslims, drive them out of their homes, or those who support them to do so. The verse below is the source:

"Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust". (Qura'an 60:009)

19 Ahmed Gurey;
 
If you want to check my online sources, this is one of my main sources here;  http://www.masmn.org/22.html
 
Also there are other works on the hadith, that explain them in foot notes. I try to work with the material provided by Muslims, for Muslims, and newcomers to Islam. I think I'm being fair.
 
I do not see the tolerance for other religions that I want to see.
 
I also wonder how you feel about the status of Dhimmi in the modern, nuclear age?
 
Thanks for keeping it polite.
 
USA, all the way!

20
James:

"Any Muslim woman who wears this terrorist uniform should have it ripped off in public"!

That does seem more hooliganism than civilized to me! It does not seem Christianly either!

If you behave this way James, could you blame any hooligan in a Muslim majority country who rippes off nuns' dress in public because he might as well think of it as being "the imperialist crusader uniform"?

First, the veil is not a terrorist uniform. All Muslims are not terrorists.

Second, why rip it off in public while she is obliged by her religion to take it off for ID check?

Please think more globally and in a wider perspective.

Newton's might apply (though roughly) to social behaviour:

"For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force."

21 yonis;
and other tolerant, and peacful Muslims.

(note: I'm exhausted, dyslexic, and I'm having trouble with my typing, please forgive any mistakes)

My great concern is that while your expressing a tolerant view, and using Quranic verse that supports your words, there is a lot in the Quran, and Hadith that are used by terrorists. I am inclined to believe your interpretation is kinder than theirs.

Worse, the anti-Americans seem to have reasonably correct context when they make such usage of the Quran, etc. I would really like to accept that more Muslims are well meaning than not. I just am not finding an absolute Quranic verse, or Hadith, that applies to stopping the anti-American Jihadists. I don't find one verse which provides for the equal respect for all religions that we attempt through our US Constitution.
 
This conflicts me greatly. I want to give the idea of "moderate Muslims" a fair chance. There is one major problem with waiting to find these Muslims. I think that because a couple of hundred million Muslims think  Jihad against America is a good thing, we are running out of time.
 
Right around now comes the darkest night of the year, so maybe this is the proper time to speak of such things. Bear with me.
 
If we can't reverse the Jihad against America, then America will have to destroy those who wage it. It will be the worst kind of time to live through. History has some examples of what we might expect, but we will not be prepared for the scale of it all. It will make WW2 look like fight between little children. Atomic weapons will get used, almost for certain. So will every other kind of horrible weapon. Land mines will make a comeback, and nobody will think anything of it.
 
No one who talks about war today seems to have any idea how tidy they have been since WW2. Right now the war in iraq is thought to be a big bloody mess, and yet the total war is no more bloody as a whole, than a single DAY of battle in WW2 could be.
 
Your expression of tolerance is welcome, but it can only be taken as your personal view, unless you have others who will come forward and show they support the same thing. Right now it looks like the 'extreme' Muslims are running things, and there is a lot of evedence to show that they have the numbers to force the kind of war I was trying to describe. I find plenty in the Hadith and Quran to support their hatred of US, and western culture. Jihad is justified in the texts I have seen. That makes war almost unavoidable.
 
So help me out here. How the blazes are we suppossed to protect, and save the peaceful, tolerant Muslims, while defeating the hateful anti-American ones? I need to know if there is a way, because I don't think we can avoid the war. It is already starting in the USA. Gunmen shooting civilians, because of their religion. How do we Americans save you who aren't the killers, if you are all mixed in with their society, and we can't tell you apart?
 
Please understand, many who see what I see, have already given up on saving any of you, so it is becoming desperate. Many believe that 'tolerant' Muslims are lying, or that they don't understand their own religion, or that they are secretly approving of the anti-Americans, and terrorists.
 
Some say you should all be sent away, outlawed or killed, because of the anti-Americans who use your religion. And I have no idea how to seperate you from the enemy. I want to, I just don't know how. I hope you are percieving my heart on this. I don't hate you, but I cannot risk losing my country to any enemy. So you need to help us tell which of you are on our side.
 
You must understand ...
 
Like I said, I'm exhausted, but this is an important concern to me, so if you will think about what I'm saying, and try to get back to me, here, or on another thread, I'll try to continue. I have to stop for tonight. Thank you for staying polite. Good night
 
USA, all the way!

22

Michael Weaver:

Yes, you are being fair. Your hadith source seems to be reliable too. I like the fact that an introduction to hadith science is given first.

Regarding tolerance for other religions, me too, I am not happy with peoples' attitudes and behavior toward other religions, irregardless of wether they are Muslims, Christians, Jewish, etc. But I am happy with the teachings of Islam. Below are some explicit Qur’anic verses:

“There is no compulsion in religion” (Qur’an, 2:256)

“Say : O ye that reject Faith!”
(Qur’an, 109:001)

“I worship not that which ye worship”
(Qur’an, 109:002)

“Nor will ye worship that which I worship”
(Qur’an, 109:003)

“You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.”
(Qur’an, 109:006)

“And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve” (Qur’an, 18:29)



Concerning the concept of Thimmi in Islamic jurisprudence (the term is not mentioned in the Qur'an), here are some notes:

If you mean Thimmi, it is a grantee of honor, justice, and protection of rights given to non-Muslim minorities in an Islamic state. The term thimmah means honor. Human societies tend to discriminate against identity minorities. Islam recognizes and guards against this fact, rather than falsely ignoring this potential discrimination and claiming that society would eventually melt in a pot to became one and the same! It is closest to the modern concept of multiculturalism. It is the principle of “we are different but equal”

Thanks.

23 ahmed, yonis,

You convinced me.  Now, if you spent as much time trying to convince other muslims that islam is a religion of peace as you do trying to convince us kufars maybe we wouldn't have such a huge terrorism problem.

24 Hi Michael Weaver:

Malaysia is officially a Muslim country and we all live in harmony with chinese, Indian, and aboriginal people. The number of tourists including Americans who come to our country annually outnumber our population. We all live in peace within an overall Islamic framework.

I am very surprised about your fear of Jihad as a concept. Our military includes members of Budhist, Muslim, Christian and Hindu religions. They all deffend their country. The Christian calls it whatever he likes that. The Muslim calls it jihad, the hindu calls it something else, but it is all the result: being patriotic and defending your country.

For the Muslim, any just war is called jihad. Even Muslims in the American military call their fight jihad. A Muslim does not participate in a war that is not jihad (even if is not, he would claim it to be!)

So, please, jihad is not about America. Of course, there is no verse that mentions America by name that say wage jihad on it or do not wage jihad on it! This is left for human judgement! In Malaysia, I can definitely tell you that we are not about to take America. We are more interdependent than many Muslim countries! For example, a large part of computer parts used in America are manufactured in Malaysia. This is worth billions of dollars annually for our economy.

As about use of nuclear weabons, I think that is a tabou that any sane person should not consider. All major religions have the nuclear weabon. This choice is suicide! No country will be saved. The nuclear weabons on earth presently can destroy the world several times over and over again!

I do not think that Yonis's verses are his personal view too. These verses are real evidence showing the official Islamic judgement on the topic. Can any one provide any other verses or authentic hadiths to the countrary? I would be very interested in studying them.

Peace be with you and may you be a peace-maker.

25 Jesusland Carlos:

Believe me, we try our best to educate our people about the correct Islamic perspecive. It is just that we speak to them in different languages and in different forum.

There are social, economical, and political problems that cloud many Muslim's understanding of their religion.

I believe that most Muslims are peace-loving people like most Americans. I have very rarely encountered any Muslim who says he/she hates Americans. When confronted with Islamic teachings (with evidence) showing how wrong that attitude is, all of them back down. They tend to shift to their discontent with the American foreign policy towards Muslims.

Thanks

26
Have a good rest Michael Weaver. Will keep in touch.

27 I appreciate the civilized discussion both sides are having on this
thread but would like to add some pertinent points. First of all
Malaysia does deserve great credit for its work against terrorism and
the tolerant workings of their peaceful society. The Asian Muslims
certainly are different (with a few exceptions) from the Arabs practice of the religion and
that is the problem. The fact remains that almost all of the mosque in
the rapidly expanding Muslim populations in the West are built by the
radicals in Saudi Arabia. They build it and get to decide who the Imam
will be for those growing nest of radicalism. So despite the vastly
more tolerant nature of the Eastern Muslim population the radicals rule
in the Mosque of Europe and the Americas.

The Anonymouse link is lame.



LOL! I debated mouse over at the AngryArab blog one night. She was
actually pretty nice and the most rational of that insane group but
when it got down to brass tacks her nicest position was for the
peaceful elimination of Israel by allowing all the so called Pals to come
back and get the vote...thus voting Israel out of existence. Real whack
jobs over there and half of them are Western libs.

28 "Believe me, we try our best to educate our people about the correct Islamic perspective. "
 
excuse me ? "correct perspective" ??? There is none, there is just your opinion of what is correct. The Koran is completely open to many interpretations, for that reason it is completely flawed. People who embrace it are only substituting for something else missing in their life.

29 Randman,

I think you misunderstood.

Anonymouse is a service that allows you to view or link to web pages via thier set of proxy servers.  When using it for an emnedded link, it essentially "Anonymizes" that link so that when you send someone to a site via that link, the site owner does not know where the view is coming from.  It's useful for lots of different things, and Howie used it to keep Debbie S. from knowing that all the hits on that story are coming via Jawa Report.

While he wants to USE her story, he doesn't want her to KNOW he is using it.  It comes off as childish and unprofessional.  Besides, it's not as though Debbie cannot and does not visit Jawa Report on a regular basis anyway, so the whole reasoning behind the use of an anonymizer link is flawed from the start.

Regarding some other people's opinions of Debbie, I read her REGULARLY and find her often insightful and always interesting.  I have never at any time found her to be extreme.  I may have missed a post in the past that was somehow offensive, but I'm not going to go hunting through her articles on a wild goose chase to find it.

Obviously some here do find her extreme in some way. To those people I'd simply repeat what I said in my first post.  We as Conservatives simply do not have the luxury of intramural squabbling when we have a Lame Duck president, Dems in control of congress and a vicous enemy at our doorstep.  If you don't like her writing, don't read her.  But don't start a blogwar over it.  It's that simple.

30 I'm glad to see the discussion about Islam above.  The extremists do use the interpretation I used.  I'd hope that interpretation fades but I'm not betting the farm or anything.

Wearyman:  I read Debbie now and then and the blog feud is in good humor.  It's all in fun.  And I bet Debbie can tell where the hits are coming from since you are wrong about the link.  I directly linked her blog and sent her a trackback, So screw you hippie! 

31 I agree the man is a criminal but I see many criminal actions taken by the terrorists and the justified by their doctine of terror.  The use their interpretation of the Koran as a shield. Now I know most disagree with that interpretation.  However I cannot solve that problem.  I can point it out.  I can troll to bring attention to it.  But the truth of the matter is as long as Muslims tolerate these views, and they are not all that rare, the problems will  continue.  We can only do what we know.  Fight the killers.  As far as eliminating that Doctrine of hate from Islam, only Muslims can do that.  But they don't for some reason.  Fear maybe I dunno.  It can't be they all agree with it, can it?

32 OK I'm awake, and I done my chores.
 
 
I am going to look at newer threads, and then check back here. If I pick up with anyone invoved with the 'tolerance' discussion at any point, I'll be happy to make some time to continue.
 
Thanks for the remarkable level of politeness to all.
 
USA, all the way!

33 Thankfully, the 'the only good muslim is a dead muslim'-brigade still seem to be in the minority. Rightfully so - as far as I can tell, the majority of muslims just want to get on with their lives, practise their religion, bring up their kids - same as the rest of us. They don't want to overthrow the culture that has given them a generally-pleasant life.

I just wish they'd be a little more vocal. Can these good, honest people not rouse themselves to issue a fatwa against the murderous dark-age animals that continually sully their name? I've not heard one refutation of the various terror attacks from any reputable Muslim body that does not contain at least one big, glaring 'but'.

"Yes, we disagree in principle with the mass slaughter of civilians... BUT.... (insert get-out clause here)"

I'd like to see the moderate majority of Muslims stand up, and make it very clear that the head-chopping, bomb-toting lunatics are unrepresentative, and utterly wrong. When the UK and US went to war, we had our dissenters - people roaming the streets with banners saying 'not in my name'. I disagree with those people, but I respect them for getting out of bed on a cold day to make their point. I wish moderate muslims would do the same - visibly protest against that which they see as wrong.

No more 'buts'. If you disagree with the lunatic fringe, stand up and be counted. I'll even hold your coat.

34

Exactly!

 

USA, all the way!

35 Howie:

"doctrine of hate?"

Who is more hateful here: Postings from you and your gang (Michael, Jesusland, not included) or those from good Muslims like Ahmed, Yonis and Arang?

Islam is a religion of peace as proven to you, but you do not seem to be a man of peace. Your initial posting is very hateful to me. However, the Muslim guys here have responded to it in a very civilized manner.

36 bloody fools, now maybe they will outlaw the burka and viels, they can really be used for some serious crimes. how about a perveted man using a burka to go to the womans changing room? or bath room? how about some man using a burka to carry drugs, and guns? are muslim women in burkas treated the same way when it comes to searching them? can a muslim women be strip searched? i damn well hope so. if a muslim can wear a mask covering there face with only the eyes showing, i think anyone should be able to. its only fair... so i will will my mask to the bank.. to the police station... to the bathroom... while driving... to the store, i have every right to do that as any muslim does. oh but im a man and men dont wear that shit... well... how about a cross dressing muslim man who is a queer? dont tell me they dont exist im sure half of those people wearing that stuff in the middle east is a faggit queer, dressing as a woman, and no on would ever know. what if i wanted a blow job from a muslim prostitute.. how would i know its a real woman.. most muslim are so vile and disgusting its good that they cover up. i wonder how many woman are raped who wear that thing, compared to a non muslim woman.

37 Woah, umm ...
 
Merry Christmas billy.
 
USA, all the way!

38

In honor of the good will exchanged here earlier, I would like to say thank you to everyone for staying so polite, while dealing with such difficult issues. I'm hoping we can do this again soon.

USa, all the way!

39 Billy the bud Smoker:

You say "......what if I wanted blow job from a Muslim prostitute.....most Muslim are so vile and disgusting its better that they cover up....."

Peace! and happy Eid!

I will respond to you the way God wants me to. In description of good Muslims, the Qura’an states:

“And the servants of the Beneficent God are they who walk on the earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace.” (Qura’an, 25:72).

“And they who do not bear witness to what is false, and when they pass by what is vain, they pass by nobly.” (Qura’an, 25:72).

As we are discussing right now, more than a couple of million Muslims are gathering in Mecca praying for peace. They are performing pilgrimage at the first house of peace and prayer built by prophet Abraham, father of prophets.

40 A Scumalian barbarian wanted for murder?


What were the odds? A sure fuckin' bet, that's what.


The burka is being used as a tool by the jihadis to attack the West.


Bend over and take it.

41 Sorry about me not seeing all the "good" that comes from the FAlse Prophet.   I was tainted by all the allahua ackbars that were repeated at this man had his head sawed off slowly. Satan was laughing his ass off on that one.

42 Yes "Doctrine of Hate". False Prophet, Anti-Christ.  If you are a Christian you either believe your religion or not. I accept Jesus' teachings and the new testament. Therefore the Koran and Islam are a false doctrine, a lie, a deception, to me. 

43 1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will
put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who
kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do
such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told
you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned
you.

44 jama;
Don't misunderstand me. I think some Muslims are peaceful, but that Islam harbors a destructive element that seems to have control. My wish is to save the peaceful Muslims from getting destroyed by what is coming. I love people. I loved my Dad, but once, I almost shot him on purpose, for fair reasons.

My origional question was basically, "How do we tell the good Muslims who like us, from the bad Muslims who don't like us? How do we keep from killing them?" So how do we?

AND I appreciate you yonis, but I still see justification for all the evils done against non-muslims, as having a basis in words I read from the Quran, and Hadith. Check out my source noted earlier. Islam isn't clearly peaceful based on the Quran, and Hadith, unless that is what you are pulling from it. Your desire, shapes your interpretation. Do you see waht I mean?

Darth Odie;
As a Christian, my character flaws are between me, and my creator. If I'm misunderstanding my path, as a Christian, I trust that I will be forgiven.

Phelps doesn't speak for me. The sick purveyors of Islamofascism can't speak for all muslims. I know they do not, and you should know it as well.

Why can't yonis have an understanding of Islam, that is different from the cruel butchers who saw peoples heads off?

Don't think I can't 'bring it' if we have to ultimatly go to war with all of Islam, but if we don't have to fight all of them, would Jesus really condone lumping them all together? Why does everyone seem to think these are the end times?

I'm fighting in the belief there will be ten thousand more years at least, before any end times come around these parts. I'm not fighting to shape the end of the world. I'm fighting to save the future of the world.

I have allowed my circle of friends to include nearly every kind of character flaw imaginable. Even if I don't share those flaws (well Ok, some I do) I have to plead the Fifth for my own protection because of what I know about.

If Jesus can find a use for a murderer, he can find a use for me. I never killed anyone (that I know of). We as Christians must allow that God may find a purpose in our peaceful discussions with moderate Muslims. We are asked to turn the other cheek once in awhile, and yonis never killed anyone (that I know of).

I get the burka problem, and I get Stuck Mojo in a clear way. I plead the Fifth. It's better that way.

Darth Odie;
If you read the Hadith with a open mind towards other religions, you could interpret the words there as saying live, and let live. In the context of Jihad, we run into real problems. All I'm saying about scripture is it can be read differently, and context can affect understanding. Some Muslims understand it in a helpful way.

Man. I'm tired again.

Merry Christmas, and all that goodwill stuff! Sincerly.

and USA, all the way!

45 TO ALL.

Can we decide what it is that we feel could be called a 'Moderate Muslim'?

I think that is the area where the most confusion comes in.

To me, a 'moderate' does not want to replace the US Constitution with Sharia. A moderate prefers US Constitutional guarantees of equality, or UN human rights standards, over inmposition of 'Dhimmi' status on any populatuion.

A moderate would be offended by the arrest of converts from islam to Christianity, in Iran, and would defend the right of people to seek religious truth without fear of punishment.

A moderate allows women the same freedom of movement, and choice that is allowed a man, excepting obvious physiological impossibilities.

A moderate is offended by the use of what we in the west commonly understand to be 'children' in any military, or paramilitary role. Teenagers using slings, like we discussed on a previous thread, are child soldiers according to international law. A moderate should condemn their use.

A moderate would be offended by teaching hate to children, such as the concept of 'Shaheed' (I hope I spelled it right) There should be no excusing of children wearing suicde belts. We know it is adults who make them, and issue them, so this is also child abuse in an organized manner. A moderate should oppose this.

I'm just getting started, but I think if you join me, we can work this out. We can come up with a formal standard.

I'm stepping back for a minute.

USA, all the way! Merry Christamas!

46
Hi there,

The points I make are supported by explicitly verses from the Qura'an. These are not my personal opinions. Most Muslims believe in it that way. There are of course certain individuals or groups who want to use religion wrongly to justify their actions toward political, social, or ecenomic goals. You can double check the verses I quote at the University of South Carolina site here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/


Michael:

I am interested in answering thoroughly your questions regarding moderation in Islam (with evidence from Islamic sources of knowledge). But I have to travel for view days. I am afraid I will not have the time in the next few days. I can continue this discussion later. For now, I can make few quick points:

The Qura'an itself states that Muslims are supposed to be moderates:

"Thus, have We made of you a justly balanced (moderate)nation, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves" (Qura'an, 2:143)

The Prophet warns about fanaticism "fanatics are doomed!" (authentic hadith".

For example: Both killing innocent people and Committing suicide are strongly forbidden it is a double-sin! (sorry, it is in the Qura'an but do not have time to retrieve exact verse. I can do that when I come back if need be).


If you have specific verse or hadith that you consider fanatical, radical, extrimist, etc. you can bring it forth I might be able to help in its exegesis. Like any text, some verses are straight forward (like the ones I have provided) while others might require more sophisticated scriptural hermeneutics. I guess the same is true for Biblical hernemeutics.


Thanks

47 Michael

"How do we know Good Muslims who like us, from bad Muslims.."

1. By definition, a good Muslim is the one who follows the teachings of Islam. So, you are on the right track as you have started trying to know what Islam's genuine sources of knowledge have to say about issues you are wondering about!

2. Every person is innocent until proven guilty! Isn't it?

3. Interract with more Muslims and you will see that most of them are peaceful people. Many Muslims are not even religious. But believe that you will also probably see that the more religious they are, the better. In rare cases thogh you might encounter a fanatic, like any other religion!

48 Terrorist Cannot have an objective Islamic justification. Terrorism has political, social, economic, or even psychiatric (e.g., being insane, inabilty to manage anger, etc.)explanation. Terrorism is in outright contradiction with what stands for. Anyone can figure that out. Victims of terrorism do not belong to one particular faith or country nor its perpetrators.

49 Flea-bitten little muhammad ordered his sycophants to terrorize "infidels." He specifically used the word "terrorize" many, many, times.


He was a terrorist, pure and simple. The death cult he left behind explicitly orders terrorism.


Fuck Ahmed Girly and Yonis. They're just spouting crude muslime "taqiyah." (Lies.)

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