1 Not until his initial appearance, with members of the news media present, did the defendant claim that he had been physically mistreated while in Saudi custody.

Just curious, you wanted him to claim he was mistreated before his initial apperance?

Where does that quote even come from? It's not in any of the links from your post.

2 It is from the DOJ motion to deny bail.

Thanks for pointing this out. I have tried to clarify.

3 The judge in this case acknowledged that there was circumstantial evidence of torture. Obviously there is enough scarring to suggest that the man was tortured.

Justice is supposed to be blind. However, it is unattainable when people such as yourself become so blinded by their racism that they are unable to see the truth.

Wake up. You are just one more "little Eichmann" who is day by day destroying our freedoms and drawing this country closer to its destruction.

Pay back is a bitch.

4 I urge you, dear tolerant reader, to do a little research into the allegations made in the initial lawsuit. The allegations that Ahmed Omar Abu Ali was tortured came from his parents based on two things.

1) their feeling that he was being tortured. That's right, their feeling.

2) an argument based on an ecological fallacy. a) Since Saudi Arabia routinely tortures inmates, b) and since Ahmed Omar Abu Ali is in a Saudi jail then c) Ahmed Omar Abu Ali must have been tortured.

Even if Ali was tortured then how is the US to blame? Ali was arrested in Saudi Arabia in conjunction with al Qaeda in Arabia. How is the US responsible for the Saudis not filing charges???

5 William Sherman is clearly a moonbat.

There is no "evidence" that Abu Ali was tortured. There is an accusation that is bereft of substantiation. His parents make the accusation using the language of the Islamofascist terrorists, that the Saudi government is controlled by Americans and Jews and that it is allegedly "repressing" so called "real" Muslims.

All through his incarceration in Saudi Arabia he told US Consulate staff he was being treated well. Either he lied to them numerous times then or he is lying now. This type of accusation is standard by Islamofascists and Moonbats since it is an attempt to take attention away from the fact that the accused has a rather strong case against them and onto something that cannot be disproven. It isn't up to the US to prove he wasn't tortured in Saudi Arabia. It is his responsibility to do that in court, in Saudi Arabia. It is simply not an issue for US jurisprudence. The man was raised and trained to be an Islamofascist killer. His lawyer ran the old "the Zionists are behind it all" canard to the press yesterday. Sadly for him, his attorney is a wild eyed lunatic member of the Islamofascist movement himself.

This individual wasn't jailed because he's an Arab or a Muslim or the US government is supposedly "racists". He was jailed because there is substantial reason to believe he conspired to assasinate the President of the United States. Period. Too bad the left has last it's collective mind. They're fit only to be ignored by sober, reasonable, and mature society any more.

6 You are mixing terms

Wahabbi
Salafiyah
then you throw in the Muslim brotherhood.

you then mention jordan and the veil so common in saudi

I know It must be hard to keep these terms straight but usualy

Wahaabi = Salafi

Muslim Brotherhood ties are incompatable with Saudi Arabia and with the movement of the Salafs.


How soon till we get to hear another american say the wahaabis of Iran

and the shiites of the Muslim brotherhood?

7 Brother Abdullah,

The Muslim Brotherhood was, and is, based in Egypt. Had you studied what appears to be your own religious divisions, you would have learned that Salafaayism refers to an interpretation of Islamic history as one in which Muslim states have become corrupt because they have left the true teachings of Islam and have abandoned Sharia.

The Wahabbi curriculum referred to was not mentioned in reference to Abu Ali's parents (apparent) belief system, which is that of the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafi. However, Abu Ali did attend a schoold that had a Wahabbi curriculum put forth by the Saudi State.

If you were to be honest (unless you are just ignorant) than you would admit that the Salafi problem with the Saudis is not just that they are corrupt, but that they do not interpret sharia in a strict enough manner.

The true philisophical aim of the Salafi movement is that of restoration of the global caliphate in some manner (although interpretive differences exist on how this is to be done).

8 johnb nc: Nice to hear from you. Common sense is a wonderful tool when fighting the evil empire. The emperor's (hillary) forces continue to send one moonbat after another into the fray. Refreshing it is, the truth.

brother abdullah: For real, you cannot be.

9 During the initial hearing, you will recall, that Abu Ali's lawyer blurted out that Ali had been beaten and exclaimed he wanted to show the judge. The lawyer, of course, knew that the judge would not allow that to be done.

Hi Randy,

Forgive my ignorance, but why would a judge not allow this to be done?

10 Oops I meant *Rusty*.

11 There is evidence, and you will see it soon enough. Stop hating so much.. what are your bases of belief? What is the point you're trying to get across?

12 ramdon-reader: The point is that it is bullshit. We have fallen for it before. The liberals have conditioned these idiots to use these false claims. What other excuse can the bastard come up with to deny his confession. Any piece of shit attorney will instruct his client to scream foul. Judges never allow the showing of so called wounds in court. The reason? Simple as your mind. It's called self inflicted.
You ask what the point is? The point is the same dog never bites me twice. 1st time his fault. 2nd time my fault.
His claims are bullshit. Old crap used by criminals for the last 40 years.

13 No, I assure you, it is not bull. If only you knew the well mannered fellow. He is honestly incapable of conceiving such atrocities. His wounds are not self inflicted, you should know well that Saudis usually torture their prisoners. My only wish for those who read articles from this site is to not be so closed minded and to stop hating different religions. All religions have their Hitlers, don't focus on one.

14 Take heart all.

Despite the MSM defense of this little terrorist, not a single one of the Wahabbis prosecuted in Northern Virginia in recent years have been acquitted. Indeed, all have pleaded guilty to federal felonies with serious jailtime attached.

From money laundering to plotting terrorist acts to supporting terrorist organizations, there has been not a single - not one - spirited defense offered by anyone charged to date. That's a revealing contrast to the whining and moaning by the Muslim PR hounds of Northern Virginia.

As for Abu Ali, I expect him to meet the same fate despite the handwringing of the MSM and all of the Muslim/Wahabbi "advocacy" groups.

The MSM is particularly irresponsible in failing to note that many countries beyond Saudi Arabia may legally detain suspected terrorists for periods of up to two years, just as they did with Abu Ali: France for one (which promptly jailed several recent Gitmo releasees on suspicion); and Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia come to mind.

15 Well-mannered? Like Goebbels?

16
"Whether in this world or in the Hereafter; our return will be to Allah; and the Transgressors will be companions of the HellFire!, soon you will remember what I say to you (now) I commit to Allah: for Allah(ever) watches over his Servants."

17 "Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, "when (will come) the help of Allah? Yes! Certainly, the help of Allah is near!"

By the way "TO BE A MUSLIM IS TO BE TESTED" so Our Muslims Don't lose Faith for the help of Allah is near....and Transgressors don't be too Sure Verily the end is For Us..

(William Thomas Sherman)..It is nice to know that there is someone who knows the Truth...

18 random kinda frightens me

19 I guess you simple minded muslims are saying the muslim Saudis tortured another muslim. Okay! Whats the big deal and why is it the fault of the United States. You camel humpers have been torturing and killing each other for centuries. Keep up the good work. Who gives a shit about what you backward animals do? Just PLEASE stay in your own countries to do it. Bunch of friggin cavemen wanting to bring their backward assed religion to the civilized world. Stay where you are. Be happy praising Allah while you cook grasshoppers over camel dung fires.

20 Don't be frightened no harm meant; it is a reminder that there is a creator who will hold everyone accountable!!!

21 Frightened??? Nay. Thats a muslim thing.

22 Dear Rusty, You are sadly mistaken.

The Ikhwan al Muslimoon (The Muslim Brotherhood Movt)

and the salafi Dawah (The call of the best generation known as Al salaf) are two very different things.

The Muslim Brotherhood are among the leaders of the Call of the caliphate, we see this thru their playing a leading role in the Jihad in Central asia, their role in the 1980s in Afghanistan, and during the 1970s in the Creation of Hamas. and in the modern day with Hizbut tahir.

the Muslim Brotherhood have influenced such Great muslim Mujihideen (those who partake in the struggle) as The Late Great Shaikhs Abdullah Azzam and Ahmad Yassin Both of Palestine.



The Best generation of Al salaf is something every muslim aspires to be.



There is No such school of thought (madhab) known as Wahhaabi despite what some would have people believe.

Ibn Abdul Wahaab never set out to create a school of thought rather he called people towards prayer with a clear voice, and there is nothing in the books or thoughts of Ibn Abdul Wahaab that you will not find in the Quran or in the Sunnah.



There are today Fools who call themselves salafi in the Mosques/Masjids, those who would claim we know Al Quran better than anyone else, these are if we follow the events of Qiymah those who fan the flames of Qiymah!

Be carefull brother in calling another brotherly Muslim ignorant.

23 I figured it all out- you guys are the KKK.

24 Opinions and beliefs should be heard without bias, but seeing as to how this is virtually impossible within the human mindset, I understand these postings' passionate rebuttals. However, greyrooster, your posting is a prime example of unbridled ignorance. I don't understand it, and cannot tolerate it without saying something. Don't cheapen yourself by allowing your hate to let you spew such unintelligent prejudices. People like you cannot respect others different than themselves, but at least respect yourself enough to filter your spoken thought, because what you've said makes it so much harder to see anything else you have to say as valid.

In reference to the article, I cannot formulate a clear cut opinion. I'm weary of what information is available to us, because it is limited and prejudiced within itself. I see other postings make reference to "the truth." "The truth" is that there's no way of knowing the "the truth." So while everyone is debating this said truth, keep in mind, that everyone has bias but there's no need for that bias to let your opinions be clouded with mean, narrow minded words with which some of these postings are written.

25 you guys dont know anything that is my cousin you guys are talking about he was tortured and just because someone is an arab and a muslim dosent mean he or she is a terrorists you guys are like most americans today paranoid and auntie fatin wears aveil because it is modest and uncle omar works for saudi arabia. covering your face is not part of islam like most people think you should read the quran

26 he is also innocent

27 rusty shackleford is a king of the hill poser

28 MUSLIMS AND ARABS ARE NOT MOONBATS BUT CHRISTIANS WHO HATE MUSLIMS ARE CROSS AND FISH LOVING FREAKS

29 greyroosters name should be greyfish or cross

30 greyroosters name should be greyfish or greycross

31 it is a very well know fact that the united states uses nations whose governments are "Puppets" or have no respect to human rights such as syria and saudi arabia to torture suspects. whabis and extremists are not the only group calling some governments puppets to the u.s. The united states has installed governments post colonization era.. Iran's Shah for example

32 "You camel humpers have been torturing and killing each other for centuries. " Let's not start talking about torture and wiping out an entire race "native American" torturing each other "Spanish inquisition" and preemptive war in the name of religion "crusades" backwardness (Europe's Dark Ages) and finally shipping slaves from Africa and wiping out indigenous people’s religion and culture with "The white man’s burden" There are mistakes in every race and every culture and they always come back to ignorance and closing our minds and hearts to ones who look or live differently

33 i am trying to post a webpage link but i got this error:
Comment Submission Error
Your comment submission failed for the following reasons:

Your comment could not be submitted due to questionable content: d e m o c r a c y n o w . o r g

Please correct the error in the form below, then press Post to post your comment.

34 http://www.d e m o c r a c y n o w .org/article.pl?sid=05/02/25/1455238

make sure there are no spaces when you post the link

35 The light is going out

By William Fisher
The Modern Tribune - January 11, 2005


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The government’s 'position is as striking as it is sweeping,' the judge said. He warned that its behavior would allow the government to arrest people and deliver them to another country in order to avoid constitutional scrutiny, or even 'to deliver American citizens to foreign governments to obtain information through the use of torture.'"



WASHINGTON, D.C. (1/11) - At his confirmation hearing to be America’s next attorney general, President Bush’s White House Counsel, Alberto Gonzales ducked most of the potentially contentious questions asked by his US Senate questioners. But he pledged that he would work around the clock to protect civil liberties and human rights.



Well, here’s a place for him to begin:



Since June 2003, Ahmed Abu Ali, a 23-year-old US citizen, has been held in al-Ha’ir prison in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. He was reportedly arrested by Saudi Arabian authorities on June 11, 2003 in the city of Medina, while taking an exam at the Islamic University there. He has no access to legal counsel or to family members. It is not clear whether he has been charged with a crime, nor is it clears when, or if, he will be put on trial. The US Government says it had nothing to do with his detention, although three FBI agents reportedly questioned him soon after his arrest. Saudi officials have declined to give an explanation for his detention, but say they are holding him at the request of the US State Department and would be glad to release him if there was a request from the US.



The US consul failed to visit Ahmed Abu Ali until almost a month after his detention, and then began monthly visits. Two months after his arrest, in September 2003, he was interrogated by three FBI agents. They reportedly threatened to declare him an “enemy combatant” and send him to Guantanamo Bay. Or he could stand trial in Saudi Arabia, where he would have no legal defense. He was then placed in solitary confinement for three months. Between November 2003 and February 2004, the US consul halted his monthly visits.



With the help of a prominent civil rights attorney, Morton Sklar, Executive Director of Human Rights USA, in August of this year Abu Ali's parents sued the US government. They asked a Federal court to order a hearing on his detention. For authority, they relied on the Supreme Court rulings in the cases of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners, and an American citizen, Yaser Hamdi. These decisions affirmed that even in wartime, the President does not have a “blank check” to detain people without due process.



Responding to the parents' petition in federal court, Justice Department attorneys said US courts lacked jurisdiction over cases involving US citizens in foreign custody. District Judge John D. Bates rejected the notion that "when the United States acts against citizens abroad it can do so free of the Bill of Rights." He ordered the Justice Department to produce evidence establishing what role, if any, U.S. officials played in Abu Ali's arrest and detention.



The government’s “position is as striking as it is sweeping," the judge said. He warned that its behavior would allow the government to arrest people and deliver them to another country in order to avoid constitutional scrutiny, or even "to deliver American citizens to foreign governments to obtain information through the use of torture."



The State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2003 says Saudi Arabian security forces "tortured detainees" and that "torture and abuse were used to obtain confessions from prisoners." The report also cites

" … credible reports that security forces continued to torture and abuse detainees and prisoners, arbitrarily arrest and detain persons, and hold them in incommunicado detention."



Amnesty International has expressed “concern” over Abu Ali’s plight. “As information or confessions are often extracted under this kind of duress, the failure of United States consular authorities to visit Ahmed Abu Ali promptly after his initial detention, or to regularly visit him since then, has put him at increased risk of these abuses.”



The judge directed the US officials named in the suit to respond within 30 days. Those officials include Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and Secretary of State Colin L. Powell. So far the silence has been deafening.



At the time they filed the suit, in August of this year, the Saudi government told the family they had no interest in their son. The United States insisted that it was not holding him. But the day the family filed suit, the State Department called the parents and told them that the Saudis were charging him with unspecified terrorism-related crimes. At this point, it is unclear whether any charges have been brought by the Saudis.



But The Washington Post reported that the Saudi embassy said in an e-mail that a senior Saudi official had issued the following statement: Abu Ali "is being detained with the full knowledge and support of the US government. There is an ongoing investigation regarding this individual. At this time, we have received no request for extradition."



Yet, more recently, The Post reported, Abu Ali was told by Saudi authorities that his trial was approaching. US officials have not facilitated legal representation, nor have they discovered what, if anything, he has been charged with.



"Every development we have seen suggests this is a US case and US prosecution," said attorney Sklar.



US officials have been interested in Ahmed Abu Ali because of an alleged connection to a now-concluded Virginia terrorism case. During the July 2003 bail hearing for one of the Virginia defendants, Sabri Benkhala, it was mentioned that Abu Ali was an associate of his who had allegedly confessed to belonging to al-Q’aeda during interrogations that were conducted by Saudi Arabia authorities and observed by the FBI. Ahmed Abu Ali denied to his family that he had ever made such a confession. Curiously, the allegation was not repeated during Benkhala’s March 2004 trial. He was acquitted of all charges.



Most Americans are, lamentably, uninformed about this case – or many other cases of post 9/11 infringements on liberties guaranteed by the US Constitution.

Or they have been persuaded by the Bush Administration that losing some of these liberties is critical to “winning the war on terror”.



But many citizens are outraged. Typical is Lawrence Jones of Conifer, Colorado, who wrote to The Denver Post, “Do you know what we call detainees when they are held by other countries without sufficient evidence and without due process of law? ‘Political prisoners.’ And we make a great show of our self-righteous disdain when other countries do exactly what we are doing. What happened to the America I learned about in school, the America that set people free because of a lack of evidence? What are we holding these people on -- hunches?”



The author of the now infamous memo to President Bush characterizing the Geneva Conventions as “obsolete” and “quaint” will soon be confirmed as the nation’s top law enforcement officer. America’s new Attorney General would do well to listen to consult Churchill’s October 16, 1938 speech, "The Light is Going Out” for his job description.



Directed at the U.S. from London, he said: "I avail myself with relief of the opportunity speaking to the people of the United States. I do not know how long such liberties will be allowed, the stations of uncensored expression are closing down; the lights are going out; but there is still time for those to whom freedom and Parliamentary government mean something, to consult together... They [dictators] are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home--all the more powerful because forbidden--terrify them."



William Fisher has managed economic development programs in the Middle East for the US State Department and the US Agency for International Development, and served in the international affairs area in the Kennedy administration.

36 WHAT DEMOCRACY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AMERICA ??!!!

37 people like greyrooster are prejudice just like all the cowardly freaks in america who belives in the patriot act iam getting out of this stupid white fake christian country iam either moving to canada or cuba communism is better than capitalism.

38 GUYMEN KEEP OFFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO